Substitutionary Atonement

[Frontline]

. . . And then see what peace of mind you will have; for if Christ has died for you, you cannot be lost. God will not punish twice for one thing. If God punished Christ for your sin, He will never punish you. “Payment, God’s justice cannot demand, first, at the bleeding surety’s hand, and then again at mine.” We can today, if we believe in Christ, march to the very throne of God, stand there, and if it is said, “Art thou guilty?” we can say, “Yes, guilty.” But if the question is put, “What have you to say why you should not be punished for your guilt?” We can answer, “Great God, Thy justice and Thy love are both guarantees that Thou wilt not punish us for sin; for didst Thou not punish Christ for sin for us? How canst Thou, then, be just—how canst Thou be God at all, if Thou dost punish Christ the substitute, and then punish man himself afterwards?”

Your only question is, “Did Christ die for me?” And the only answer we can give is—“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ came into the world to save sinners.” Can you write your name down among the sinners—not among the complimentary sinners, but among those that feel it, bemoan it, lament it, seek mercy on account of it? Are you a sinner? That felt, that known, that professed, you are now invited to believe that Jesus Christ died for you, because you are a sinner; and you are bidden to cast yourself upon this great immovable rock, and find eternal security in the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Particular Redemption by Charles Spurgeon.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Robert - it is not what the Catholic Church affirms about the atonement - it is what it denies that puts them at odds with the biblical data.

Or, rather, it is what puts the Catholic Church at odds with a protestant biblical interpretation.

You have said what you wanted to say and I respect your right to say it. But I respectfully disagree with your interpretation, and your self-claim to the authority of interpretation.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Exactly why would Christ have to take our sins upon Himself, if He was not acting as a willing Substitute to pay the penalty for those sins?

Love requires sacrifice.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[brownjt]

. . . And then see what peace of mind you will have; for if Christ has died for you, you cannot be lost. God will not punish twice for one thing. If God punished Christ for your sin, He will never punish you. “Payment, God’s justice cannot demand, first, at the bleeding surety’s hand, and then again at mine.” We can today, if we believe in Christ, march to the very throne of God, stand there, and if it is said, “Art thou guilty?” we can say, “Yes, guilty.” But if the question is put, “What have you to say why you should not be punished for your guilt?” We can answer, “Great God, Thy justice and Thy love are both guarantees that Thou wilt not punish us for sin; for didst Thou not punish Christ for sin for us? How canst Thou, then, be just—how canst Thou be God at all, if Thou dost punish Christ the substitute, and then punish man himself afterwards?”

Your only question is, “Did Christ die for me?” And the only answer we can give is—“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ came into the world to save sinners.” Can you write your name down among the sinners—not among the complimentary sinners, but among those that feel it, bemoan it, lament it, seek mercy on account of it? Are you a sinner? That felt, that known, that professed, you are now invited to believe that Jesus Christ died for you, because you are a sinner; and you are bidden to cast yourself upon this great immovable rock, and find eternal security in the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Particular Redemption by Charles Spurgeon.

Well done. Can all of us - catholics, protestants, whatever - acknowledge this Truth? The next step would be to talk about the “calvinistic” (if there is one) view of sanctification. Once saved always saved? Maybe that is for another thread?

 

[brkn1]

Love requires sacrifice.

Peace,
-Robert

I agree that love requires sacrifice, but that answer does not explain exactly why Jesus had to take our sins upon Himself on the Cross. Jesus’ Sacrifice must have done something very directly with those sins, at that time. or it would not have been necessary to take those sins upon Himself.

 

[Frontline]

Or, rather, it is what puts the Catholic Church at odds with a protestant biblical interpretation.

You have said what you wanted to say and I respect your right to say it. But I respectfully disagree with your interpretation, and your self-claim to the authority of interpretation.

Peace,
-Robert

Peace to you Robert!

 

[Frontline]

Well done. Can all of us - catholics, protestants, whatever - acknowledge this Truth? The next step would be to talk about the “calvinistic” (if there is one) view of sanctification. Once saved always saved? Maybe that is for another thread?

Once saved always saved is not the topic of this thread - but I would be happy to open another thread for some discussion of this precious truth. We prefer to call it “The Perseverance of the Saints” and many even call it “The Preservation of the Saints.” This doctrine is one of my favorite biblical teachings there is!

Anyone care to discuss it?

As a matter of fact - I will start that thread now . . .

I will see you all on the Frontline!

 

[cfrancis]

Does Substitutional Atonement support ‘once saved, always saved’?

Once saved always saved is not the topic of this thread - but I would be happy to open another thread for some discussion of this precious truth. We prefer to call it “The Perseverance of the Saints” and many even call it “The Preservation of the Saints.” This doctrine is one of my favorite biblical teachings there is!

Anyone care to discuss it?

As a matter of fact - I will start that thread now . . .

I will see you all on the Frontline!

That’s what I thought. It will be interesting to see what you believe to be Scriptural support for OSAS.

 

[brkn1]

I read your link on the Catholic Encylopedia explanation. There are some good points, but it still fails to convince me on the reason why Jesus “bore our sins upon Himself on the Cross”.

Exactly why would Christ have to take our sins upon Himself, if He was not acting as a willing Substitute to pay the penalty for those sins?

I have read the Catholic Encyclopedia explanation again and I can find no real addressing of the question, that I asked, concerning “Why did Jesus have to take our sins upon Himself, if He was not acting as a willing Substitute to pay the penalty for those sins He bore?”.

The lack of response I get here suggests that Roman Catholics ignore or do not believe that Jesus actually bore our sins on the Cross. I was hoping to find some explanation in the Roman Catholic understanding of why Jesus took our sins upon Himself on the Cross.

 

[crisco]

I have read the Catholic Encyclopedia explanation again and I can find no real addressing of the question, that I asked, concerning “Why did Jesus have to take our sins upon Himself, if He was not acting as a willing Substitute to pay the penalty for those sins He bore?”.

The lack of response I get here suggests that Roman Catholics ignore or do not believe that Jesus actually bore our sins on the Cross. I was hoping to find some explanation in the Roman Catholic understanding of why Jesus took our sins upon Himself on the Cross.

Could there be another meaning to “take our sins upon himself” or “bore our sins” aside from that which you are promoting?

 

[cfrancis]

I have read the Catholic Encyclopedia explanation again and I can find no real addressing of the question, that I asked, concerning “Why did Jesus have to take our sins upon Himself, if He was not acting as a willing Substitute to pay the penalty for those sins He bore?”.

The lack of response I get here suggests that Roman Catholics ignore or do not believe that Jesus actually bore our sins on the Cross. I was hoping to find some explanation in the Roman Catholic understanding of why Jesus took our sins upon Himself on the Cross.

You’ve not exhausted the resources available to you. From the Catechism:
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:70

Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Savior; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?71

615 "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous."443 By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin”, when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”.444 Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.445

Jesus consummates his sacrifice on the cross

616 It is love "to the end"446 that confers on Christ’s sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life.447 Now "the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died."448 No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.

 

[brkn1]

You’ve not exhausted the resources available to you. From the Catechism:
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:70

Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Savior; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?71

615 "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous."443 By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin”, when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”.444 Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.445

Jesus consummates his sacrifice on the cross

616 It is love "to the end"446 that confers on Christ’s sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life.447 Now "the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died."448 No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.

These parts of the Catechism do seem to say that Jesus bore our sins on the Cross as our Substitute, unless I have misunderstood what the RCC understands happened.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I agree that love requires sacrifice, but that answer does not explain exactly why Jesus had to take our sins upon Himself on the Cross. Jesus’ Sacrifice must have done something very directly with those sins, at that time. or it would not have been necessary to take those sins upon Himself.

Again, I do not disagree with the notion that Jesus bore our sins in the sense that he atoned for them. And I agree that because it was the Father’s plan of redemption that Jesus showed us by an act of perfect submission to the will of the Father what love requires. It was Jesus’s actions that atoned for our sins. It was not the infliction of punishment upon Him that acheived salvation. That is the distinction I am trying to make. Jesus’s “work” was submission to the will of the Father, not becoming a cosmic whipping boy.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Frontline]

Again, I do not disagree with the notion that Jesus bore our sins in the sense that he atoned for them. And I agree that because it was the Father’s plan of redemption that Jesus showed us by an act of perfect submission to the will of the Father what love requires. It was Jesus’s actions that atoned for our sins. It was not the infliction of punishment upon Him that acheived salvation. That is the distinction I am trying to make. Jesus’s “work” was submission to the will of the Father, not becoming a cosmic whipping boy.

Peace,
Robert

DO you believe that the Psalms are heavily Messianic?

Do you believe that Christ speaks through a great deal of the Old Testament Scriptures?

Then please tell me - who is speaking here:

“Is it nothing to you, all ye that pass by? behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger. 13 From above hath he sent fire into my bones, and it prevaileth against them: he hath spread a net for my feet, he hath turned me back: he hath made me desolate and faint all the day. 14 The yoke of my transgressions is bound by his hand: they are wreathed, and come up upon my neck: he hath made my strength to fall, the Lord hath delivered me into their hands, from whom I am not able to rise up. 15 The Lord hath trodden under foot all my mighty men in the midst of me: he hath called an assembly against me to crush my young men: the Lord hath trodden the virgin, the daughter of Judah, as in a winepress. 16 For these things I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed. 17 Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the LORD hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them. 18 The LORD is righteous; for I have rebelled against his commandment: hear, I pray you, all people, and behold my sorrow: my virgins and my young men are gone into captivity. 19 I called for my lovers, but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls. 20 Behold, O LORD; for I am in distress: my bowels are troubled; mine heart is turned within me; for I have grievously rebelled: abroad the sword bereaveth, at home there is as death. 21 They have heard that I sigh: there is none to comfort me: all mine enemies have heard of my trouble; they are glad that thou hast done it: thou wilt bring the day that thou hast called, and they shall be like unto me. 22 Let all their wickedness come before thee; and do unto them, as thou hast done unto me for all my transgressions: for my sighs are many, and my heart is faint.” (Lamentations 1:12-22)

Is this not Christ speaking from the cross?

 

[brkn1]

Again, I do not disagree with the notion that Jesus bore our sins in the sense that he atoned for them. And I agree that because it was the Father’s plan of redemption that Jesus showed us by an act of perfect submission to the will of the Father what love requires. It was Jesus’s actions that atoned for our sins. It was not the infliction of punishment upon Him that acheived salvation. That is the distinction I am trying to make. Jesus’s “work” was submission to the will of the Father, not becoming a cosmic whipping boy.

Peace,
Robert

This is where we have a great difference in our understanding of the Gospel.
You do not believe that Jesus was punished, in our deserved place, by God the Father on the Cross as a Substitute for us.
You do not believe that Jesus became a curse for us to satisfy God’s Holiness by the Father’s wrath against our Substitute. Becoming a curse for us means Jesus actually took upon Himself our sins to be punished for those sins in our place.

If you do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was punished in our place by God the Father as our Perfect Substitute, then you have missed the very essence of the Gospel.

 

[brownjt]

This is where we have a great difference in our understanding of the Gospel.
You do not believe that Jesus was punished, in our deserved place, by God the Father on the Cross as a Substitute for us.
You do not believe that Jesus became a curse for us to satisfy God’s Holiness by the Father’s wrath against our Substitute. Becoming a curse for us means Jesus actually took upon Himself our sins to be punished for those sins in our place.

If you do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was punished in our place by God the Father as our Perfect Substitute, then you have missed the very essence of the Gospel.

I think the word punishment from God is alittle harsh here. It was fulfillment of the Law that had to take place.

 

[brkn1]

I think the word punishment from God is alittle harsh here. It was fulfillment of the Law that had to take place.

God’s Holiness requires punishment for sin. Jesus fulfilled that requirement as our Substitute on the Cross. Jesus bore the penalty and suffered God’s Holy wrath in our place. The belief and acceptance of that Sacrifice of Jesus is what saves us from our deserved damnation in hell. He purged all of our sins “by Himself” by His Blood.

 

[nbtb1348]

God’s Holiness requires punishment for sin. Jesus fulfilled that requirement as our Substitute on the Cross. Jesus bore the penalty and suffered God’s Holy wrath in our place. The belief and acceptance of that Sacrifice of Jesus is what saves us from our deserved damnation in hell. He purged all of our sins “by Himself” by His Blood.

That is correct. It is simply what a righteous God had to do to free sinners from what He MUST inflict on them. When Jesus said, “It is finished”, the word in Greek was “tetelestai”–a common business term that meant “paid in full”. His punishment paid in full the penalty of death we deserve. Read this awesome verse:
“When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”-Colossians 2:13-14

 

[brownjt]

That is correct. It is simply what a righteous God had to do to free sinners from what He MUST inflict on them. When Jesus said, “It is finished”, the word in Greek was “tetelestai”–a common business term that meant “paid in full”. His punishment paid in full the penalty of death we deserve. Read this awesome verse:
“When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”-Colossians 2:13-14

His death not his punishment was His payment and our reward. It was God’s justice and not His wrath against his own son and/or part of Him. I was His love for us and not His anger towards us.

 

[brkn1]

His death not his punishment was His payment and our reward. It was God’s justice and not His wrath against his own son and/or part of Him. I was His love for us and not His anger towards us.

Death is a punishment in itself, even though the Bible shows Christ’s death to be much more than simply death. The agony in the Garden shows how intense the price was.

The next question that shows the difference in doctrine is: “Was Christ’s death a sufficient payment for your sins?”
Your salvation depends on the correct answer to that question. When you stand before God, that will be the question.
It will be your having Christ’s perfect righteousness, or your claim to having both Christ’s righteousness plus some of your own righteousness added “using Christ’s merit”.
God can only accept perfect righteousness, since He is a perfect Judge.