Substitutionary Atonement

[brownjt]

Death is a punishment in itself, even though the Bible shows Christ’s death to be much more than simply death. The agony in the Garden shows how intense the price was.

The next question that shows the difference in doctrine is: “Was Christ’s death a sufficient payment for your sins?”
Your salvation depends on the correct answer to that question. When you stand before God, that will be the question.
It will be your having Christ’s perfect righteousness, or your claim to having both Christ’s righteousness plus some of your own righteousness added “using Christ’s merit”.
God can only accept perfect righteousness, since He is a perfect Judge.

You and I will never be perfectly righteous - we are not worthy and will never be. We have no self-righteousness, except the grace that God extended through His son by the Cross. If you have to throw your body on a grenade to selfishly “save” others and you have to do this or all will “die”, that is not punishment due to the sin of whoever threw it. That is an act of charity to save others. When we stand before God Jesus will be able to intercede for us if we are in a state of grace. We will never be in a perfect state of grace and may not be in our time of death. Jesus will see that and send our souls to the appropriate location - heaven, hell or purgatory…

 

[brkn1]

You and I will never be perfectly righteous - we are not worthy and will never be. We have no self-righteousness, except the grace that God extended through His son by the Cross. If you have to throw your body on a grenade to selfishly “save” others and you have to do this or all will “die”, that is not punishment due to the sin of whoever threw it. That is an act of charity to save others. When we stand before God Jesus will be able to intercede for us if we are in a state of grace. We will never be in a perfect state of grace and may not be in our time of death. Jesus will see that and send our souls to the appropriate location - heaven, hell or purgatory…

You are correct that we will never have our own perfect righteousness that is required to stand before God. We must, however, have the Perfect Righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ imputed to us before we die. That Perfect Righteousness is all that God in His Perfect Holiness can accept to receive us into Heaven. We can not have that Perfect Righteousness, unless the Holy Spirit first convinces us that we have no righteousness or merit of our own to offer God. That conviction is what then allows us to be given the Perfect Righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ so that we become born again and eternally saved.

 

[nbtb1348]

You and I will never be perfectly righteous - we are not worthy and will never be. We have no self-righteousness, except the grace that God extended through His son by the Cross. If you have to throw your body on a grenade to selfishly “save” others and you have to do this or all will “die”, that is not punishment due to the sin of whoever threw it. That is an act of charity to save others. When we stand before God Jesus will be able to intercede for us if we are in a state of grace. We will never be in a perfect state of grace and may not be in our time of death. Jesus will see that and send our souls to the appropriate location - heaven, hell or purgatory…

But you miss the fact that “…He BECAME SIN…that we might become the righteousness of God” He became sin and then the Father poured out his wrath on that sin, in punishment, because Jesus took on himself all our sins and, Scripture says, became sin.

By the way, if you understand what happened at the moment of regeneration, you will understand that the inner man of the believer is righteous right now, and that in fact that is the real man now. It is why Paul said "old things have passed away, behold all things have become new’ and it is why John says that when we see Him (at his return) “we will be like him, for we will see him as He is” (I John3) And guess what will happen to make that possible (beside seeing him)? Paul tells us in Rom. 8–“the redemption of OUR BODIES” (Not saying Christians don’t commit sins or arrive at a sinless state this sied of heaven, but note that Paul says twice in 4 verses in Rom 7 that “it is no longer I that sins, but sin that dwells in me”. This is of course, only true of someone who has been literally BORN a second time by the Spirit of God who literally lives inside him! Do you understand this?

 

[crisco]

But you miss the fact that “…He BECAME SIN…that we might become the righteousness of God” He became sin and then the Father poured out his wrath on that sin, in punishment, because Jesus took on himself all our sins and, Scripture says, became sin.

…or rather sin offering. How can Jesus become sin?

 

[brownjt]

But you miss the fact that “…He BECAME SIN…that we might become the righteousness of God” He became sin and then the Father poured out his wrath on that sin, in punishment, because Jesus took on himself all our sins and, Scripture says, became sin.

By the way, if you understand what happened at the moment of regeneration, you will understand that the inner man of the believer is righteous right now, and that in fact that is the real man now. It is why Paul said "old things have passed away, behold all things have become new’ and it is why John says that when we see Him (at his return) “we will be like him, for we will see him as He is” (I John3) And guess what will happen to make that possible (beside seeing him)? Paul tells us in Rom. 8–“the redemption of OUR BODIES” (Not saying Christians don’t commit sins or arrive at a sinless state this sied of heaven, but note that Paul says twice in 4 verses in Rom 7 that “it is no longer I that sins, but sin that dwells in me”. This is of course, only true of someone who has been literally BORN a second time by the Spirit of God who literally lives inside him! Do you understand this?

God did not pour His wrath out on His son. He was a substitute for us. He was still innocent. We crucified him - not God - and sacrificed him for His innocence. God does allow certain things to happen and He allowed this to happen for obvious reasons.

 

[nbtb1348]

God did not pour His wrath out on His son. He was a substitute for us. He was still innocent. We crucified him - not God - and sacrificed him for His innocence. God does allow certain things to happen and He allowed this to happen for obvious reasons.

No, you didn’t read the verse. Just let scripture say what it says. It is alive and the Holy Spirit will show you. God says, “the wages of sin is death”–You earn eternal death for sinning–“but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.”

*LOOK AT WHAT ISAIAH PROPHESIED ABOUT THE CROSS:

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.*