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NotWorthy
Guest
I think it says to join these Forums and hash it out, doesn’t it? Maybe in the Deuterocanonicals?
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Mickey
Guest
Take it to the Church!
I know that wasn’t addressed to me, but I could not help myself.
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Eden
Guest
Firstly, the Holy Spirit guides the Church. I don’t claim to to be infallible but I do have faith that His Church is led by the Holy Spirit into all truth. We were not promised less than that. No where in scriptures is it stated that individuals will be led separately into all truth, it specifies that the Church will be led into all truth. It is no small miracle that the Catholic Church is still here 2,000 years later.
Secondly, Mickey already answered how the bible tells us to resolve disagreements between Christians on these matters.
But the Church referred to in scriptures was the Catholic Church, not the Baptist churches, as they did not exist at that time.
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
You are correct!
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Eden
Guest
This is such an outrageous claim, that I missed the nuance the first time I read your post. The Catholic Church does not claim it is the source of infallible truth, it is simply the earthly institution founded by Christ to carry out His mission in the world. It is unbelievable that you would make the statement that the Church claims to be the source of infallible truth.
The source of infallible truth is, of course, God. Jesus and later the Apostles passed down the “deposit of faith” through His Church with the ultimate source of that truth coming from God the Father. This “deposit of faith” is passed down through each generation of bishops in the Catholic Church without error because the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error.
“As from the first, God speaks to his Church through the Bible and through sacred Tradition. To make sure we understand him, he guides the Church’s teaching authority—the magisterium—so it always interprets the Bible and Tradition accurately. This is the gift of infallibility.”
This is basic Catholicism. I’m just shocked to see the doctrine of infallibility so blatantly misrepresented here.
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NotWorthy
Guest
John, you make a broad accusation here, and once again you stand on your own infallibility to deny our infallibility.
Where your arguement fails to hold up to the test is repeated thousands of times a day, just by listening to preachers across the country, all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, teaching doctrines that are diametrically opposed to each other - not the least of which is Salvation comes through Baptism, the Rapture, and abortion/contraception.
If the Holy Spirit was truly guiding these people, all of them would be teaching the same thing on these issues. Only the Catholic Church can make a claim like that and it has done so for almost 2000 years.
Again, look at contraception. Every major faith in the 1930’s taught that contraception was a sin and an abomination. How many teach that now, John? Very few side with the Catholic Church on this issue in today’s world. So what’s changed? Is it the truth? No!!! Our cutlture has molded our consciences to accept contraception as a “Woman’s Right”, even to the point of calling us bigots if we deny them their “right”.
If you can show me where God has shaped our consciences to accept this “new truth” and I’ll give you creedence to your hypothesis. But as you’ve probably noticed, I’m not exactly very “open-minded” to new ideas, shall we say?
The Catholic Church does not make this claim. Jesus does. He states to the Apostles, the very ones who will be the foundation of His Church, that He will send the Holy Spirit to guide us. And he will always be with us. If the Holy Spirit is guiding the Catholic Church, then we CAN NOT teach falsehood. We can have false and immoral priests, Jesus prophecied that too, but our doctrines can not be false, or else the Spirit is not guiding us as Jesus promised He would.
Where your arguement fails to hold up to the test is repeated thousands of times a day, just by listening to preachers across the country, all claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, teaching doctrines that are diametrically opposed to each other - not the least of which is Salvation comes through Baptism, the Rapture, and abortion/contraception.
If the Holy Spirit was truly guiding these people, all of them would be teaching the same thing on these issues. Only the Catholic Church can make a claim like that and it has done so for almost 2000 years.
I would have thought Paul and Barnabus were teaching what the Holy Spirit was guiding them to teach, not from their own consciences. Am I wrong, here?
Aren’t these two statements (underlined) saying the opposite things. We cannot judge what is truth by our own consciences, because our consciences are often a product of our culture.
Again, look at contraception. Every major faith in the 1930’s taught that contraception was a sin and an abomination. How many teach that now, John? Very few side with the Catholic Church on this issue in today’s world. So what’s changed? Is it the truth? No!!! Our cutlture has molded our consciences to accept contraception as a “Woman’s Right”, even to the point of calling us bigots if we deny them their “right”.
If you can show me where God has shaped our consciences to accept this “new truth” and I’ll give you creedence to your hypothesis. But as you’ve probably noticed, I’m not exactly very “open-minded” to new ideas, shall we say?
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bibleapologist
Guest
Notworthy, and Eden,
We, as believers each have an existential relationship with Christ but we cannot be the originators of truth. Only God can be the infallible originator of truth. Subsequently, we as believers, who are led by the Holy Spirit are only capable of interpreting that truth for practical purposes, but we are not originators of truth as existential philosophy would lead us to believe.
[Man] does not necessarily unfold the truth by merely reasoning (as Plotinus alluded), but as a man reasons he is only reiterating what has been revealed to him by another source. That source could be the truth of God as revealed by the Holy Spirit, but sometimes the interpretation of that truth is corrupted by an integration of other ideas… (preconceived notions). (post #139)
The Catholic Church, by claiming to be the infallible origin of truth, thereby negates the work of the Holy Spirit, and disregards the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person. Since the Catholic Church lifts themselves to a position of sole-authority, by claiming infallibility they disregard the Holy Spirit working in the heart and conscience of a believer, and hence… they take pre-eminence over the Holy Spirit in the heart and conscience of that believer… (post #136)
Once again we come back to the topic of truth, and my explanation of John 16:13. The Holy Spirit, being the third person of the Trinity, is God Himself; and as such, is the originator of truth and infallible. Since we have been given the Holy Spirit (John 14:7), we have the origin of truth within us which testifies of the truth to us through our conscience’. (post #133)
John
www.gideonsword.net
I understand the Catholic Church does not “claim” to be the origin of truth… but it does claim infallibility. And by claiming infallibility, the Catholic Church has either… assumed the authority of God… or has defeated it’s own claim to infallibility.
We, as believers each have an existential relationship with Christ but we cannot be the originators of truth. Only God can be the infallible originator of truth. Subsequently, we as believers, who are led by the Holy Spirit are only capable of interpreting that truth for practical purposes, but we are not originators of truth as existential philosophy would lead us to believe.
[Man] does not necessarily unfold the truth by merely reasoning (as Plotinus alluded), but as a man reasons he is only reiterating what has been revealed to him by another source. That source could be the truth of God as revealed by the Holy Spirit, but sometimes the interpretation of that truth is corrupted by an integration of other ideas… (preconceived notions). (post #139)
The Catholic Church, by claiming to be the infallible origin of truth, thereby negates the work of the Holy Spirit, and disregards the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person. Since the Catholic Church lifts themselves to a position of sole-authority, by claiming infallibility they disregard the Holy Spirit working in the heart and conscience of a believer, and hence… they take pre-eminence over the Holy Spirit in the heart and conscience of that believer… (post #136)
Once again we come back to the topic of truth, and my explanation of John 16:13. The Holy Spirit, being the third person of the Trinity, is God Himself; and as such, is the originator of truth and infallible. Since we have been given the Holy Spirit (John 14:7), we have the origin of truth within us which testifies of the truth to us through our conscience’. (post #133)
John
www.gideonsword.net
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Odell
Guest
John if someone came up to you and asked if artificial insimination was ok would you tell them if it was right or wrong? Would you not be disregarding the Holy Spirit? Acording to yiour theology.
If you told thim it is wrong it would be an INFALLIBLILE statement. Would it not. Or are you not sure would you just tell them to ask the Holy Spirit.
You have still not given any proof of how you preach the same message but do not negate the Holy Spirit. How are you any different?
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NotWorthy
Guest
Remember that underlined statement, for you change your stance later on in this post.
In answer to your 2nd statement (b), there’s another option. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit to teach infallibly. It’s just as Jesus promised. It’s Biblical!!! Isn’t that important to you?
You see, now you’re basing your arguement on the Catholic Church “claiming” to be the originator. Three paragraphs ago, you understood where we don’t make that “claim”. The Catholic Church, rather than taking pre-eminence over the Holy Spirit
, is guided by the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus promised!!!Two points:
a) Jesus only claimed to give the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. We see no where else in the Bible, as He is preaching to the multitudes, that He will give the Holy Spirit to guide us. When Jesus is teaching the Apostles, Catholic teach that He is guiding them in their priestly roles.
b) You still haven’t explained how so many preachers, all being lovingly guided by the Holy Spirit, can come up on opposite ends of the Spectrum on such issues as Baptism, Abortion/Contraception, the Rapture, etc. (At least I don’t think you have. If so, please re-direct me to your post and accept my sincerest apologies).
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Eden
Guest
How does “claiming” infallibility negate the origin of truth as being from God? This is not an either/or situation here. Christ founded a Church, not a Bible and it is through this Church, the authority of the bishops and the later addition, the Bible, that He leads us. Christ promised to lead His Church into all truth (John 16:13). How can fallible human beings be led into all truth? Are you claiming that the Holy Spirit leads you as an individual into all truth? Christ founded a Church and He works through that Church to lead the faithful. Claiming otherwise is simply unbiblical.
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Odell
Guest
Ba
You believe the bible is the word of God and is truth. You believe that only the Apostles where infallible in what they taught. But who is Jude dosent he have a book in the bible? I dont remember him being listed as one of the apostles but somehow he has a book in the bible that is infallible and is truth?
What do you have to say for this?
You believe the bible is the word of God and is truth. You believe that only the Apostles where infallible in what they taught. But who is Jude dosent he have a book in the bible? I dont remember him being listed as one of the apostles but somehow he has a book in the bible that is infallible and is truth?
What do you have to say for this?
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Odell
Guest
BA
you also claim that the apostles were there to write what they heard down threw scripture. That is how the word of God is passed down. Why do not all the apostles have a book in th ebible if that is what they are for? And if the apostles are long gone when the bible was complete and cannonized who decided what books are inspired and what books are not? Was it the baptist? Dont you think the apostles would have done a better Job completing the bible if that was there job. Why did we have to wait 300 or so years for a complete bible? Who would have such athority to say this belongs this does not if the apostles are dead?
I know you been busy but please dont forget to respond to 148 and 151
you also claim that the apostles were there to write what they heard down threw scripture. That is how the word of God is passed down. Why do not all the apostles have a book in th ebible if that is what they are for? And if the apostles are long gone when the bible was complete and cannonized who decided what books are inspired and what books are not? Was it the baptist? Dont you think the apostles would have done a better Job completing the bible if that was there job. Why did we have to wait 300 or so years for a complete bible? Who would have such athority to say this belongs this does not if the apostles are dead?
I know you been busy but please dont forget to respond to 148 and 151
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Eden
Guest
What’s interesting about the Bible-onlies, is that they are completely disconnected from the realities of the early Church.
In the first few centuries, Christians were waiting for what they thought was the imminent return of Christ.
The focus was on evangelizing (orally) and awaiting His return.
At that point, no one thought of compiling a New Testament, per se. Christ had founded a Church, not a Bible and Christ never directed anyone to create a Bible.
But after a generation without Christ’s return, it became apparent that the collections of inspired writings should be gathered and compiled as a New Testament.
The New Testament (and the Bishops who set the canon knew this) was not an exhaustive guide to what Christ and His Apostles taught. The “Deposit of Faith” included both written and oral teaching. But oral teaching was the first mode of evangelizing by the Apostles, as they were modelling Christ Himself.
In the first few centuries, Christians were waiting for what they thought was the imminent return of Christ.
The focus was on evangelizing (orally) and awaiting His return.
At that point, no one thought of compiling a New Testament, per se. Christ had founded a Church, not a Bible and Christ never directed anyone to create a Bible.
But after a generation without Christ’s return, it became apparent that the collections of inspired writings should be gathered and compiled as a New Testament.
The New Testament (and the Bishops who set the canon knew this) was not an exhaustive guide to what Christ and His Apostles taught. The “Deposit of Faith” included both written and oral teaching. But oral teaching was the first mode of evangelizing by the Apostles, as they were modelling Christ Himself.
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bibleapologist
Guest
Odell,
If you don’t have the same Holy Spirit, the only source of truth you can trust is what someone has told you (second-hand). It is my concern that much of what you have been taught by the Catholic Church is not truth, or is misinterpreted truth.
John
www.gideonsword.net
As I cannot claim infallibility, I can only reiterate truth as it is revealed to me by the Holy Spirit and by carefully comparing that truth with the infallibility of the Holy Scripture… to make sure I have interpreted the truth correctly.
If you don’t have the same Holy Spirit, the only source of truth you can trust is what someone has told you (second-hand). It is my concern that much of what you have been taught by the Catholic Church is not truth, or is misinterpreted truth.
John
www.gideonsword.net
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bibleapologist
Guest
Notworthy,
How does being led by the Holy Spirit equate with infallibility?
Infallibility is the inability to err. But the Catholic Church, made up of fallible men, do have the God given liberty of free-will… and therefore the ability to err.
John
www.gideonsword.net
But if the Catholic church is guided by the Holy Spirit, doesn’t that make any truth the Catholic Church conveys only truthfulness?
How does being led by the Holy Spirit equate with infallibility?
Infallibility is the inability to err. But the Catholic Church, made up of fallible men, do have the God given liberty of free-will… and therefore the ability to err.
John
www.gideonsword.net
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bibleapologist
Guest
Odell,
Jude, along with Nebuchadnezzar’s writings are included in the scripture because they are perfectly inspired interpretations of the Holy Spirit’s revelation.
John
www.gideonsword.net
No, I don’t believe the Apostles were infallible… Peter taught heresy and was rebuked by Paul, Thomas was an unbeliever. But the Word of God is infallible because it is from eternity… John 1:1.
Jude, along with Nebuchadnezzar’s writings are included in the scripture because they are perfectly inspired interpretations of the Holy Spirit’s revelation.
John
www.gideonsword.net
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bibleapologist
Guest
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Eden
Guest
If you are not infallible, then you cannot interpret the Bible without making errors.
The Holy Spirit is the source of truth. While His message is infallible, you are not.
Same. It is my concern that much of what you have been taught by Baptist theology is not truth, or is misinterpreted truth.
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bibleapologist
Guest
Eden,
And I have already shown through scripture that all those who are born again, are indwelt with the Holy Spirit… twice.
As far as each individual believer being led into all truth… How else could we have access to truth, if not by the origin of truth.
If the Holy Spirit, being God is the origin of truth… from an eternal perspective He IS all truth. So, God, being all truth (infallible) is the benchmark from which we get truth.
We are never told that we will understand all truth, or that our minds will contain all truth… but that we will be LED into all truth… which indicates a process of revelation.
We will not come to the FULL KNOWLEDGE of truth until we are present with Christ in eternity…
John
www.gideonsword.net
I have already shown how claiming infallibility negates the origin of truth being God… twice.
And I have already shown through scripture that all those who are born again, are indwelt with the Holy Spirit… twice.
As far as each individual believer being led into all truth… How else could we have access to truth, if not by the origin of truth.
If the Holy Spirit, being God is the origin of truth… from an eternal perspective He IS all truth. So, God, being all truth (infallible) is the benchmark from which we get truth.
We are never told that we will understand all truth, or that our minds will contain all truth… but that we will be LED into all truth… which indicates a process of revelation.
We will not come to the FULL KNOWLEDGE of truth until we are present with Christ in eternity…
In light of the previously quoted verse, how do explain the Catholic Church’s claim to have “all truth”, or to be infallible?
John
www.gideonsword.net
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bibleapologist
Guest
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