Suckered into an Unjust War?

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rwoehmke

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Old Osama is hiding out in the mountains but he is winning this war in Iraq without firing a shot himself. He sat out to bring America down and he is succeeding. Over $500 billion expended on a war, questionable at best on a moral basis, which is dragging our economy into the tank. Thirty thousand American casualties including nearly 4000 dead and many irreversably brain damaged either physically or mentally.Our great grandkids will still be paying for it; assuming of course that we are still a free country. The Soviet Union fell apart because its economy went south trying to keep up in the arms race.

Five hundred billion dollars would have paid for the increase in children’s health insurance at least 50 times over. Old Osama is a fox and has suckered us into a never ending war that is depleting our economy, making us dependent on China through huge loans, turned most of the people of Western Europe and the Middle East against the USA. As individual people many of them still like us, but as a nation they have their second thoughts.

What is so appalling is that except for one single senator from Wisconsin, both sides of the aisle went for the “bait.” Now they are looking for re-election and some of them have the unmitigated gall to run for president Time to clean the hen house folks and get some new chickens in the coop.
 
rwoehmke said:
Old Osama is hiding out in the mountains but he is winning this war in Iraq without firing a shot himself. He sat out to bring America down and he is succeeding. Over $500 billion expended on a war, questionable at best on a moral basis, which is dragging our economy into the tank. Thirty thousand American casualties including nearly 4000 dead and many irreversably brain damaged either physically or mentally.Our great grandkids will still be paying for it; assuming of course that we are still a free country. The Soviet Union fell apart because its economy went south trying to keep up in the arms race.

Five hundred billion dollars would have paid for the increase in children’s health insurance at least 50 times over. Old Osama is a fox and has suckered us into a never ending war that is depleting our economy, making us dependent on China through huge loans, turned most of the people of Western Europe and the Middle East against the USA. As individual people many of them still like us, but as a nation they have their second thoughts.

What is so appalling is that except for one single senator from Wisconsin, both sides of the aisle went for the “bait.” Now they are looking for re-election and some of them have the unmitigated gall to run for president Time to clean the hen house folks and get some new chickens in the coop.
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Nice screed.

I’ve heard it before. Some old same old.

Fully indoctrinated anti-anti-islamo-fascist content.

Very nice,… seemingly very charitable toward “the downtrodden”.

…but what’s the punchline?

“ALL politicians are evil. Toss 'em!”

You would have us believe that “getting new chickens” would actually change anything. That is simply not true, therefore, your REAL point (assuming you aren’t completely naive about politics) is that REPUBLI(EVIL)CANS should be replaced by
DEMO(SAINTLY)CRATS.

Yet another good person suckered by the friends of islamo-fascism.
 
That my friend is total Bull Excrement. The Democrats are just as responsible for getting us into this mess as the Republicans. I mean to clean them all out not just those "Nasty’ Republicans as you would be thinking. Our country is bankrupt, not only fiscally, but morally as well. We call ourselves a Christian Nation. Well I ain’t from Oklahoma but “show me.” You call me naive, but I might reason that you might be a paranoid republican.
 
rwoehmke said:
That my friend is total Bull Excrement. The Democrats are just as responsible for getting us into this mess as the Republicans. I mean to clean them all out not just those "Nasty’ Republicans as you would be thinking. Our country is bankrupt, not only fiscally, but morally as well. We call ourselves a Christian Nation. Well I ain’t from Oklahoma but “show me.” You call me naive, but I might reason that you might be a paranoid republican.
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Heh he he he he…!! 🙂

I actually DO agree with you that all politicians are corrupt,… but that proves my point.

If the “present population of politicians in power” were tossed out, who would they be replaced by, except more corrupt politicians…!?

What you’re (cryptically) recommending is that we should be “ruled” by something that ISN’T a bunch of politicians. That would equate to “anarchism”. Anarchists are juvenile (or adolescent) utopianists. They live in “dream land”.

While I sympathize with your frustration about the political situation of the world, your exhortation to anarchy is the typical revolutionary juvenile response to the facts of life.

Your choices to concentrate your screed on economic and “battlefield inevitabilities” (soldiers VOLUNTEER to serve) tells me all I need to know as to where you’re coming from.

You wish the world was “perfect”, or rather “more comfy for you”, less “disturbing”, and who seems to you more “like you” in your utopianism?

The Dems. 🙂

…or at least, the Dems who aren’t yet elected, but “should be”.

Have you mailed in your monthly dues to MoveOn yet…?

Heh he he he he… 🙂
 
Newbie2 said:
I smell politics rather than morality here…
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Ditto. I saw plenty of inaccuracies in the first “rant” but I understand the point of view they were coming from. Inaccurate never the less. On the other hand, doesn’t mean that the ‘other side’ is right.

Further, there seems to be a muddling of the war on terror, that war we are waging in Afghanistan, with the war on Iraq, which is a war we were suckered into. Those are two different wars, but our politicians are trying to package them into one, and the original poster clearly fell for that bait but then twisted it up even more than a politician.

Osama has nothing, in a real sense, to do with the start of the war in Iraq. The war in Iraq is a suckers war and we were suckered into it, but not by Osama. Osama is a true terrorist, the battles in Afghanistan are still being waged by, and supported by, a world-wide coalition. The war in Iraq is largely a war of the US and a few allies and most of our allies were smart enough to stay out of it, or get out gracefully.

Interestingly, one point made was our economy is doing badly. That does not seem to be true. While there are some weak segments of our economy, it is actually quite strong in most sectors and humming along very nicely with low unemployment in most area, good returns from the stock markets, solid financial institutions (except the junk loan market) and reasonably high levels of confidence by most consumers. Our inflation is low and wholesale prices are stable. Yes, we are piling up huge international trade deficits, mostly with China and our war debts are also piling up. Taxes will have to increase to pay the bills.

Clearly, we are MORALLY bankrupt. Most of that is due to Democrats. They are truly promoting some evil bills. That must be stopped. Unfortunately the Republicans are starting to believe that they must “drift left” and leave their moral base. To me, that is political suicide. The one thing the Republicans should stick with is their moral base. There is no way the Democrats can capture any moral votes except by the use of deceit. Democrats and morality is like oil and water. . . the two don’t mix.
 
melensdad said:
Ditto. I saw plenty of inaccuracies in the first “rant” but I understand the point of view they were coming from. Inaccurate never the less. On the other hand, doesn’t mean that the ‘other side’ is right.

Further, there seems to be a muddling of the war on terror, that war we are waging in Afghanistan, with the war on Iraq, which is a war we were suckered into. Those are two different wars, but our politicians are trying to package them into one, and the original poster clearly fell for that bait but then twisted it up even more than a politician.

Osama has nothing, in a real sense, to do with the start of the war in Iraq. The war in Iraq is a suckers war and we were suckered into it, but not by Osama. Osama is a true terrorist, the battles in Afghanistan are still being waged by, and supported by, a world-wide coalition. The war in Iraq is largely a war of the US and a few allies and most of our allies were smart enough to stay out of it, or get out gracefully.

Interestingly, one point made was our economy is doing badly. That does not seem to be true. While there are some weak segments of our economy, it is actually quite strong in most sectors and humming along very nicely with low unemployment in most area, good returns from the stock markets, solid financial institutions (except the junk loan market) and reasonably high levels of confidence by most consumers. Our inflation is low and wholesale prices are stable. Yes, we are piling up huge international trade deficits, mostly with China and our war debts are also piling up. Taxes will have to increase to pay the bills.

Clearly, we are MORALLY bankrupt. Most of that is due to Democrats. They are truly promoting some evil bills. That must be stopped. Unfortunately the Republicans are starting to believe that they must “drift left” and leave their moral base. To me, that is political suicide. The one thing the Republicans should stick with is their moral base. There is no way the Democrats can capture any moral votes except by the use of deceit. Democrats and morality is like oil and water. . . the two don’t mix.
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Thank you for writting the first part of this. I’m always suprised at the people who mix up the Afgan and Iraq Wars.

Neither of our “illustrious” polical parties are free of responsibilities for these two “messes”. It all comes done to “cowboy politics”. What is that Travis Tritt song? “We’ll put a boot in your eye. That’s the American way”. Both parties were thinking this way. Now we’re stuck in two never-ending wars.

Wish our goat-ropin’ wannbe-be-a-cowboy president would get his head out of his butt and figure out how to get us out of this. But, that’s a republican for ya. “Daddy, what should I doooo?”

Kim
 
Hey guys, I may be naive, but I have never been a member of either party, usually vote republican on the local level and am bothered that we are mortgaged to the socks with the Chinese. All they have to do is demand it all back quick and this so called stable economy will turn into a depression to make the 1930’s look like heaven. By the way I was born during the depression and even the tail end under FDR was not petty.

As for my economic facts being off, why don’t you fill me in with the true numbers for the borrowing from Communist China, the total cost of the two front war, and those kinds of accurate figures. I have no regrets about the Afgani effort. We had good reason and our allies were with us, but Iraq? Which of the half dozen serial reasons that were given is the the truth? I am suspecting maybe none of them.

I still find myself with the Bishops and John Paul II all of whom questioned the justness of our excursion into Iraq. Saying it was a prudential matter seems to me to be a fairly insubstantial excuse. George Senior and Cheney both recognized back during the First Gulf War that to go further than we did would lead to a quagmire. George the lesser did not learn much from his daddy.

Yes moderators maybe this would better have been placed in the Water Cooler or politics. We are into defending political parties and politicians and it doesn’t belong in Moral Theology. Up to this post there hasn’t been a peep about the justness of our fiasco of a war. Not because of our fine and brave military, but because of the ineptness of our politicians of both parties.

I also wonder why I should even vote in the next election if I will only be voting for another bunch of corrupt politicians. Doesn’t even appear that any of the leading contenders will want to work against embryonic stem cell or free choice for abortion. At least George the lessor had that going for him.
 
rwoehmke said:
Old Osama is hiding out in the mountains but he is winning this war in Iraq without firing a shot himself. He sat out to bring America down and he is succeeding…
Old Osama is a fox and has suckered us into a never ending war that is depleting our economy, making us dependent on China through huge loans, turned most of the people of Western Europe and the Middle East against the USA. …
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Old Osama did nothing of the sort.
We walked into Iraq wide-eyed and on our own and we should walk out the same way, rather than worrying about whether some powerless misguided hatemonger in a cave will claim that he “beat” us. Don’t credit Bin Laden with our own foibles.

Different countries agree or disagree with our policy that is their choice. We’re big kids, everyone in the world doesn’t have to agree with us or love us on every single issue. We can take a little criticism. Humility is good for the soul after all.

The US current accounts balance has been a growing problem for decades.
The budget deficit is a horrible problem and the money could have been far better spent …or not spent but that is not Ben Laden’s doing.

Now the issue of whether the US is in a questionable moral position after embarking on a war that the Pope advised against and that his personal envoy to the US president called illegal and unjust is quite another matter.
 
I am surprised that no one seems to think that Ol Osama did not want to bankrupt the USA. I can’t recover the incident, but I thought that was implied when he was intending to bring us down economically. Why else the World Trade Center? Why else support a war in another country that is costing us, what’s the figure? I thought I saw $5 billion a day last month. And I was sure recent news pieces put the total spent this far, maybe including the current request for $200 billion more, was over a half trillion or 500 billion. I am still waiting for correct figures.

Between keeping up Reagan on arms spending and their Afganistan adventure the Soviet Union took a hit that demolished their economy. Are we somehow immune from such a black money hole? :confused:
 
rwoehmke said:
I am surprised that no one seems to think that Ol Osama did not want to bankrupt the USA.
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I’m sorry, but I don’t see how you could make this statement.

Nobody denied it. Nor did they affirm it. Those facts alone can’t be used to deduce what you wrote.

Just like in your first post where you muddled all sorts of points about 2 different wars, now you come to a conclusion without any basis of fact to support your statement.
 
Different countries agree or disagree with our policy that is their choice. We’re big kids, everyone in the world doesn’t have to agree with us or love us on every single issue. We can take a little criticism. Humility is good for the soul after all.
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The US current accounts balance has been a growing problem for decades.
The budget deficit is a horrible problem and the money could have been far better spent …or not spent but that is not Ben Laden’s doing.
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In actuality the account books always show a balance and there is no deficit. What isn’t brought in by taxes is brought in from foreign and domestic borrowing. Enormous amounts of U.S. debt have been bought by foreign countries, especially Japan, China, and the U.K, countries which “agree” with our policy, no matter what you hear. Without that money, this war could not be financed, especially after Congress passed those tax cuts. (That tax cut, by the way, gave the illusion that the war cost the U.S. nothing.) Unfortunately, money lent needs to be repaid someday. But whether we ever intend to pay that money back or not is another moral issue, which is probably better left off to another thread. Besides, I’m still waiting for Ron Paul, the one last moral politician, to provide some guidelines here.🙂
 
rwoehmke said:
Hey guys, I may be naive, but I have never been a member of either party, usually vote republican on the local level and am bothered that we are mortgaged to the socks with the Chinese.
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Born during the Great Depression and NEVER been a member of the only 2 real political parties in the US, eh?

What does that sound like to you, you folks out there? 🙂
All they have to do is demand it all back quick and this so called stable economy will turn into a depression to make the 1930’s look like heaven. By the way I was born during the depression and even the tail end under FDR was not petty.

As for my economic facts being off, why don’t you fill me in with the true numbers for the borrowing from Communist China, the total cost of the two front war, and those kinds of accurate figures. I have no regrets about the Afgani effort. We had good reason and our allies were with us, but Iraq? Which of the half dozen serial reasons that were given is the the truth? I am suspecting maybe none of them.

I still find myself with the Bishops and John Paul II all of whom questioned the justness of our excursion into Iraq. Saying it was a prudential matter seems to me to be a fairly insubstantial excuse. George Senior and Cheney both recognized back during the First Gulf War that to go further than we did would lead to a quagmire. George the lesser did not learn much from his daddy.

Yes moderators maybe this would better have been placed in the Water Cooler or politics. We are into defending political parties and politicians and it doesn’t belong in Moral Theology. Up to this post there hasn’t been a peep about the justness of our fiasco of a war. Not because of our fine and brave military, but because of the ineptness of our politicians of both parties.

I also wonder why I should even vote in the next election if I will only be voting for another bunch of corrupt politicians. Doesn’t even appear that any of the leading contenders will want to work against embryonic stem cell or free choice for abortion. At least George the lessor had that going for him.
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Anyway,… is it an unjust war?

No.

It’s just a very messy war where the parties warring are doing their warring in VERY odd and squirrely fashion.

How would you fight the “rust”, “vermin” and “mildew” that is AlQaida and their ilk?

You’d let them snag little goofball countries, and turn them into resources to milk. Of course.

The “freedom costs too much” stance is unacceptable to this little black duck.

“Quagmire…! I’m stuck in the 60’s…! I need my flower-power fix…! Quagmire…! The MAN(/Bear/Pig) is to blame…! QUAGMIRE…!!!”

You got suckered, alright. 🙂
 
Never heard of Independents? They are the folks who swing elections. I sure do apologize for conflating the two wars, but I still think Ol Osama was smart enough to take advantage of the mess in Iraq. And no one has been able to give me a good reason yet why hitting the Trade Center was not a direct attack on the U.S. economy. If you somehow think they just picked two tall buildings in juxtaposition you are just as naive and misled as I am. I suppose one could call 9/11 a “sucker punch.” You know one you fail to see coming. 🙂
 
rwoehmke said:
IWhy else support a war in another country that is costing us, what’s the figure? I thought I saw $5 billion a day last month. And I was sure recent news pieces put the total spent this far, maybe including the current request for $200 billion more, was over a half trillion or 500 billion. I am still waiting for correct figures.
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The undeclared war in Iraq is costing the United States eight thousand dollars a second. Five hundred thousand a minute, seven hundred twenty million a day.
In a sense, rwoehmke, you’re right: bin Laden could never hope to bring America down by direct attack. But he wasn’t trying to hit us in the pocketbook – we did that to ourselves, and he didn’t even have to try. To him, I’d say that our current dire financial situation is probably an unintended windfall.

Nobody really wins if the US suffers a complete economic collapse – a specter that always seems a little bit more real every day. Even terrorists lose out. They win if we twist ourselves into something America was never supposed to become, if we sacrifice freedom on the altar of fear, if we turn against our neighbors, our allies, and each other. They’ve won if we become worse than they are.

And we’re already a good long way down the road to doing just that.

Pleasant dreams.
 
Keikiolu said:
What does that sound like to you, you folks out there? 🙂
Sounds like a very sensible guy.😃
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I wouldn’t blaspheme God’s image, for starters. The members of Al-Qaeda are not rust, vermin, or mildew. They are human beings who have given themselves over to evil–which is a much scarier thing.

As for the rest of your post–you really aren’t capable of civil conversation, are you?

Edwin
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Suckered,Huh. 3,300 innocent Americans died on 9-11 and we are going after those that perpetrated the attack in Afghanistan and Iraq. I don’t care it it takes 900 trillion dollars. We have every right to protect ourselves. We declared war on Japan after 2,100 men, women and childred died at Pearl Harbor. There is no difference. The original post is liberal handwringing. This country needs to find it’s backbone again or we will never be able to defend ourselves again.
 
mesurman said:
Suckered,Huh. 3,300 innocent Americans died on 9-11 and we are going after those that perpetrated the attack in Afghanistan and Iraq. I don’t care it it takes 900 trillion dollars. We have every right to protect ourselves. We declared war on Japan after 2,100 men, women and childred died at Pearl Harbor. There is no difference. The original post is liberal handwringing. This country needs to find it’s backbone again or we will never be able to defend ourselves again.
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You do know that Iraq had nothing to do with the tragic events of 11/09/2001?

Afghanistan didnt either, they only “harbored” Bin Laddan and co.

Dont forget who trained, funded and armed them in the first place.
 
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