Suckered into an Unjust War?

[Steve40]

Old Osama is hiding out in the mountains but he is winning this war in Iraq without firing a shot himself. He sat out to bring America down and he is succeeding. Over $500 billion expended on a war, questionable at best on a moral basis, which is dragging our economy into the tank. Thirty thousand American casualties including nearly 4000 dead and many irreversably brain damaged either physically or mentally.Our great grandkids will still be paying for it; assuming of course that we are still a free country. The Soviet Union fell apart because its economy went south trying to keep up in the arms race.

Five hundred billion dollars would have paid for the increase in children’s health insurance at least 50 times over. Old Osama is a fox and has suckered us into a never ending war that is depleting our economy, making us dependent on China through huge loans, turned most of the people of Western Europe and the Middle East against the USA. As individual people many of them still like us, but as a nation they have their second thoughts.

What is so appalling is that except for one single senator from Wisconsin, both sides of the aisle went for the “bait.” Now they are looking for re-election and some of them have the unmitigated gall to run for president Time to clean the hen house folks and get some new chickens in the coop.

We will only lose if we don’t see this through. Giving up now does not bring back the loss of life or the loss of ability for the injured. We must form a beach head in the Middle East starting with Iraq staying in Iraq as long as we have stayed in Germany. We still are in Germany today. Let’s pull out of Germany. If Iraq can maintain freedom Iran will be next.

We also have to start selling Isreal F18s or something that will allow them to reach Iran and take out any nuclear facilities. If we are doing this to back Isreal, then let’s not be half hearted about it.

Unfortunately we are fighting a two front war and one of the fronts is on our own soil and in power within our government. Hopefully we will come through this with a peaceful revolution instead of a bloody one.

 

[vern_humphrey]

We will only lose if we don’t see this through. Giving up now does not bring back the loss of life or the loss of ability for the injured. We must form a beach head in the Middle East starting with Iraq staying in Iraq as long as we have stayed in Germany. We still are in Germany today. Let’s pull out of Germany. If Iraq can maintain freedom Iran will be next.

We also have to start selling Isreal F18s or something that will allow them to reach Iran and take out any nuclear facilities. If we are doing this to back Isreal, then let’s not be half hearted about it.

Unfortunately we are fighting a two front war and one of the fronts is on our own soil and in power within our government. Hopefully we will come through this with a peaceful revolution instead of a bloody one.

How is it so many Americans don’t understand that the repeated attacks on this country – from the USS Cole to the embassies in Africa, to 9/11 means we can’t ignore them and hope they will go away?

We are in combat with an enemy who intends nothing less than our complete destruction – and unless we strangle the serpent now, it will grow stronger and stronger, until it finally brings us down.

 

[HamtramckSteve]

We are in combat with an enemy who intends nothing less than our complete destruction – and unless we strangle the serpent now, it will grow stronger and stronger, until it finally brings us down.

Is Terrorism a Mortal Threat?
by Patrick J. Buchanan

It may have been politically incorrect to publish the thoughts on the sixth anniversary of 9-11, but what Colin Powell had to say to GQ magazine needs to be heard.

Terrorism, said Powell, is not a mortal threat to America.

“What is the greatest threat facing us now?” Powell asked. "People will say it’s terrorism. But are there any terrorists in the world who can change the American way of life or our political system? No. Can they knock down a building? Yes. Can they kill somebody? Yes. But can they change us? No. Only we can change ourselves. So what is the great threat we are facing?"

History and common sense teach that Powell speaks truth.

Since 9/11, 100,000 Americans have been murdered – as many as we lost in Vietnam, Korea and Iraq combined. Yet, not one of these murders was the work of an Islamic terrorist, and all of them, terrible as they are, did not imperil the survival of our republic.

Terrorists can blow up our buildings, assassinate our leaders, and bomb our malls and stadiums. They cannot destroy us. Assume the worst. Terrorists smuggle an atom bomb into New York harbor or into Washington, D.C., and detonate it.

Horrible and horrifying as that would be – perhaps 100,000 dead and wounded – it would not mean the end of the United States. It would more likely mean the end of Iran, or whatever nation at which the United States chose to direct its rage and retribution.

Consider. Between 1942 and 1945, Germany and Japan, nations not one-tenth the size of the United States, saw their cities firebombed, and their soldiers and civilians slaughtered in the millions. Japan lost an empire. Germany lost a third of its territory. Both were put under military occupation. Yet, 15 years later, Germany and Japan were the second and third most prosperous nations on Earth, the dynamos of their respective continents, Europe and Asia.

Powell’s point is not that terrorism is not a threat. It is that the terror threat must be seen in perspective, that we ought not frighten ourselves to death with our own propaganda, that we cannot allow fear of terror to monopolize our every waking hour or cause us to give up our freedom.

For all the blather of a restored caliphate, the “Islamofascists,” as the neocons call them, cannot create or run a modern state, or pose a mortal threat to America. The GNP of the entire Arab world is not equal to Spain’s. Oil aside, its exports are equal to Finland’s.

Afghanistan and Sudan, under Islamist regimes, were basket cases. Despite the comparisons with Nazi Germany, Iran is unable to build modern fighters or warships and has an economy one-twentieth that of the United States, at best. While we lack the troops to invade Iran, three times the size of Iraq, the U.S. Air Force and Navy could, in weeks, smash Iran’s capacity to make war, blockade it and reduce its population to destitution. Should Iran develop a nuclear weapon and use it on us or on Israel, it would invite annihilation.

As a threat, Iran is not remotely in the same league with the Soviet Union of Stalin, Khrushchev and Brezhnev, or Mao’s China, or Nazi Germany, or Imperial Japan, or even Mussolini’s Italy.

And why would Tehran, which has not launched a war since the revolution in 1979, start a war with an America with 10,000 nuclear weapons? If the Iranians are so suicidal, why have they not committed suicide in 30 years by attacking us or Israel?

What makes war with Iran folly is that an all-out war could lead to a break-up of that country, with Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Arabs and Baluchis going their separate ways, creating fertile enclaves for al-Qaeda recruitment and training.

In our time, Pakistan, Ethiopia and Czechoslovakia have split apart. The Soviet Union and Yugoslavia have broken up into two dozen nations. Terrorism had nothing to do with it. Tribalism had everything to do with it.

Race, ethnicity and religion are the fault lines along which nations like Iraq are coming apart. If America ends, it will not be the work of an Osama bin Laden.

COPYRIGHT CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.

 

[Brendan]

We will only lose if we don’t see this through. Giving up now does not bring back the loss of life or the loss of ability for the injured. We must form a beach head in the Middle East starting with Iraq staying in Iraq as long as we have stayed in Germany. We still are in Germany today. .

Exactly. We live a culture that wants things NOW!.

It took decades to convert a totalitrian Germany into a functional democracy. It was 8 years before the US allowed Germany to hold it’s first elections. Why? because it took that long to educate the people and to allow political parties to arise that would respect an elected government.

Why did anyone think that Iraq would be any different.

But we made the investment in Germany and Japan after WW-II, and it’s paid off big dividends in peaceful allies.

We need to do the same with Iraq.

 

[SoCalRC]

Unfortunately we are fighting a two front war and one of the fronts is on our own soil and in power within our government. Hopefully we will come through this with a peaceful revolution instead of a bloody one.

I’m not worried about a bloody revolution. We’ve become a nation of gutless wimps. Our ‘hawks’ do a lot of squawking, but won’t step up and fight - or for that matter, even pay, for a war they claim to support.

The population at large seems to wet itself in fear every time someone in office shouts ‘Ooga Booga!’ and shows us a picture of a swarthy man with a gun. We’ve voted away Habeus Corpus, given up on warrants and probable cause, and can’t seem to do more than wring our hands and whimper when confronted with the fact that we’ve now adopted secret prisons and torture as the new symbol of America abroad.

Democracy, like Christianity, is not easy. Both take some real courage. God may be a Good Shepard, but democratic freedoms don’t flourish in a land of bleating sheep.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m not worried about a bloody revolution. We’ve become a nation of gutless wimps. Our ‘hawks’ do a lot of squawking, but won’t step up and fight - or for that matter, even pay, for a war they claim to support.

The population at large seems to wet itself in fear every time someone in office shouts ‘Ooga Booga!’ and shows us a picture of a swarthy man with a gun. We’ve voted away Habeus Corpus, given up on warrants and probable cause, and can’t seem to do more than wring our hands and whimper when confronted with the fact that we’ve now adopted secret prisons and torture as the new symbol of America abroad.

Democracy, like Christianity, is not easy. Both take some real courage. God may be a Good Shepard, but democratic freedoms don’t flourish in a land of bleating sheep.

If we need to storm Iwo Jima, or land on Omaha Beach, we have the men who can do it – men like Michael Hardegree who died week before last.

Unfortunately, we also have a lot of people who want to play games with this war – people who never heard a shot fired in anger, who never wore the uniform, are quite willing to undermine the men who are doing the fighting.

 

[SoCalRC]

If we need to storm Iwo Jima, or land on Omaha Beach, we have the men who can do it – men like Michael Hardegree who died week before last.

Really? It seems to me that men like Mr. Hardegree must be in incredibly short supply. We have been forced to go to 15 month deployments and seem to be unable to even give troops 1:1 gaps between redeployments.

Unfortunately, we also have a lot of people who want to play games with this war – people who never heard a shot fired in anger, who never wore the uniform, are quite willing to undermine the men who are doing the fighting.

Games like a non existant stockpile of weapons? Games like a non existant link to a terrorist act? How about sending inexperienced political lackeys for reconstruction, or profiteering on contaminated water, gasoline, and tained food?

How about US soldiers foraging in a trash dump for scraps to up armor their own vehicles while the nation hands out massive tax cuts to the wealthiest 1%? How about the game of underfunding the VA and letting the nation’s finest, who have nearly given all, languish in filth and squalor?

I have served my country in combat, as did my father and my brother before me. Of my children, only my son is of service age now and he is severely disabled. However, both my nephew and my God son have served in Iraq.

In a democracy it is the responsibility of the population at large to insure that blood and treasure is used wisely. If you look closely at the writings of the founding fathers you will see that the power to declare war rests with the congress because the greatest fear was a king like abuse of military might.

My duty to God, country, and family all require that speak out on issues like torture and rendition, poorly equipped and cared for troops, and gross fiscal irresponsibility during a time of war. Yes, some people will scream ‘traitor’, but that is to be expected in a nation of sheep. Head down, obey the herd…

But the reason I volunteered to serve my country during a time of war is that some principles are, indeed, worth dying for. But sacrifices become meaningless when society gladly gives away the very freedoms bought in blood - all in the name of a little personal safety.

 

[melensdad]

Exactly. We live a culture that wants things NOW!.

Totally agree, and this is why we have a society that has lost its morality (or visa versa!)

But we made the investment in Germany and Japan after WW-II, and it’s paid off big dividends in peaceful allies.

We need to do the same with Iraq.

Again I totally agree. If we do not then we have the blood of innocents on our hands. But it does not explain the justification for going into Iraq in the first place. Nor has there been any good justification that I have heard anyplace else. Iraq is an error. It, consequently is our moral obligation to make reparations for that error. That is why we cannot leave.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Now that is ONE of two completely separate wars we are fighting. That ONE war, in Afghanistan is a just war. The world courts and the world’s armies still support and participate in that effort.

There is ANOTHER war, it is in Iraq. It is a different war, fought for different motives, and I do not believe that is a just war. I do support our soldiers, but not the political reasons for going in there. I do NOT believe we were lied to as for the reasons for going into war, I simply do not believe that the alleged possession of WMD made it just war. The world all believed there were WMDs in Iraq, every nation admitted it, even those that opposed the action we took. Time seems to show there were only dismantled WMDs, and now the effort there is certainly not aimed at WMDs but at fringe Muslims who would topple the new government. If we pull out, there will be genocide and the blood will be on our hands. I don’t believe we should have gone in there, but I am not willing to pull out and leave those people to die…

With sadness, I agree.

… We are in combat with an enemy who intends nothing less than our complete destruction – and unless we strangle the serpent now, it will grow stronger and stronger, until it finally brings us down.

Does anybody dare to answer the question; Who (or what) is “the serpent”?

Is there a politician who dares to answer this question?

And how do we “strangle” it?

 

[Elric]

Again I totally agree. If we do not then we have the blood of innocents on our hands. But it does not explain the justification for going into Iraq in the first place. Nor has there been any good justification that I have heard anyplace else. Iraq is an error. It, consequently is our moral obligation to make reparations for that error. That is why we cannot leave.

No matter what your opinion of the reasoning for the co-allition invading Iraq, something had to be done about their government even just based on what they have done to their own people (or citizens of the country). If war was the only option, then thats what had to be done.

But it is nearly impossible for anything positive to be achieved unless there are some drastic changes made, even then it will be difficult because it was poorly handled from virtually the start.

 

[mesquite_magic]

No matter what your opinion of the reasoning for the co-allition invading Iraq, something had to be done about their government even just based on what they have done to their own people (or citizens of the country). If war was the only option, then thats what had to be done.

But it is nearly impossible for anything positive to be achieved unless there are some drastic changes made, even then it will be difficult because it was poorly handled from virtually the start.

If tht’s our justification, why aren’t we in Darfur? The reality is that we were lied to about the war in Iraq. Remember when it was called “Shock And Awe”? When WMD’s weren’t found, the name was changed to “Operation Free Iraq”. Hmmm… can you say, “trying to pull the wool over our eyes?”

Kim

 

[Elric]

If tht’s our justification, why aren’t we in Darfur? The reality is that we were lied to about the war in Iraq. Remember when it was called “Shock And Awe”? When WMD’s weren’t found, the name was changed to “Operation Free Iraq”. Hmmm… can you say, “trying to pull the wool over our eyes?”

Kim

Actually that wasnt the co-allitions justification, they went for the WMD line. Sadly, its my own personal justification.

There are plenty of places that fit this justification that nothing is being done about, but we are not talking about them in this thread. Just Iraq and Afghanistan.

I am not naive about the situation or blind to the to what has happened, I just think that something needed to be done.

 

[HamtramckSteve]

No matter what your opinion of the reasoning for the co-allition invading Iraq, something had to be done about their government even just based on what they have done to their own people (or citizens of the country). If war was the only option, then thats what had to be done.

We need to stop with the Wilsonian do-gooderism. Not every problem can be solved militarily, which is the current number one lesson we should be learning from Iraq right now.

 

[Elric]

We need to stop with the Wilsonian do-gooderism. Not every problem can be solved militarily, which is the current number one lesson we should be learning from Iraq right now.

You are right, not everything can be solved by war.

As I stated in an earlier post, only if there is no other option. I would have thought that the atomic bombing of Japan, at the very least, would be encouragement to look for other options (of course there are plenty of glowing examples of why we should look for other options).

I think the number one lesson from this is to not allow politicians run wars or a nations rebuilding.

 

[melensdad]

No matter what your opinion of the reasoning for the co-allition invading Iraq, something had to be done about their government even just based on what they have done to their own people (or citizens of the country).

OK, then using your own logic, why do we sit on our hands while there is genocide in Darfur?

Or on a parallel note, why do we import goods from China when we know that many are made using child labor, prison labor and often in unsafe/unjust conditions while simultaneously destroying the planet due to their absence of pollution controls?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Really? It seems to me that men like Mr. Hardegree must be in incredibly short supply. We have been forced to go to 15 month deployments and seem to be unable to even give troops 1:1 gaps between redeployments.

And this means, what?

If congress would pay more, we’d have more men. But they want to fight a war on the cheap – let others make the sacrifices.

Games like a non existant stockpile of weapons? Games like a non existant link to a terrorist act? How about sending inexperienced political lackeys for reconstruction, or profiteering on contaminated water, gasoline, and tained food?

How about US soldiers foraging in a trash dump for scraps to up armor their own vehicles while the nation hands out massive tax cuts to the wealthiest 1%? How about the game of underfunding the VA and letting the nation’s finest, who have nearly given all, languish in filth and squalor?

I have served my country in combat, as did my father and my brother before me. Of my children, only my son is of service age now and he is severely disabled. However, both my nephew and my God son have served in Iraq.

In a democracy it is the responsibility of the population at large to insure that blood and treasure is used wisely. If you look closely at the writings of the founding fathers you will see that the power to declare war rests with the congress because the greatest fear was a king like abuse of military might.

My duty to God, country, and family all require that speak out on issues like torture and rendition, poorly equipped and cared for troops, and gross fiscal irresponsibility during a time of war. Yes, some people will scream ‘traitor’, but that is to be expected in a nation of sheep. Head down, obey the herd…

The usual drivel.

But the reason I volunteered to serve my country during a time of war is that some principles are, indeed, worth dying for. But sacrifices become meaningless when society gladly gives away the very freedoms bought in blood - all in the name of a little personal safety.

And now others are serving – and they deserve our support, and we don’t support them by raking up every thing we can think of that did or might have, or was imagined to be go wrong.

 

[steveandersen]

We will only lose if we don’t see this through.

Loose what?

Giving up now does not bring back the loss of life or the loss of ability for the injured.

I don’t agree with the notion that choosing where and when to fight is “giving up”

Strategic mobility is one of our greatest assets. Not using it because some guy in a cave might claim that he “won” is self-defeating.

We must form a beach head in the Middle East starting with Iraq staying in Iraq as long as we have stayed in Germany.

Why? Is there anything comparable to Soviet/Warsaw pact troops near Iraq to require us to stay?

We still are in Germany today. Let’s pull out of Germany.

I’m all for that as a general cost savings however we do have treaty obligations which make that difficult.

If Iraq can maintain freedom Iran will be next.

Next for what?

What are your yardsticks for “freedom”

We also have to start selling Isreal F18s or something that will allow them to reach Iran and take out any nuclear facilities.

that doesn’t sound like a way to win hearts and minds

If we are doing this to back Israel, then let’s not be half hearted about it.

We should back Israel not for its own sake but as a way of serving our strategic needs.
They are already one of the largest recipient of US foreign aid and have been for decades. That is hardly half hearted.

Unfortunately we are fighting a two front war and one of the fronts is on our own soil and in power within our government.

What exactly are you saying?
That policy disagreements are the equivalent of “war”

Hopefully we will come through this with a peaceful revolution instead of a bloody one.

Once again what exactly are you saying?

 

[BlueKnight]

Instead of being cynical, why don’t we pray for our leaders? I pray for Bush often.

I think I’ll expand my political prayer list today to include others.

BK

 

[Elric]

OK, then using your own logic, why do we sit on our hands while there is genocide in Darfur?

Or on a parallel note, why do we import goods from China when we know that many are made using child labor, prison labor and often in unsafe/unjust conditions while simultaneously destroying the planet due to their absence of pollution controls?

As I stated in another post:

There are plenty of places that fit this justification that nothing is being done about, but we are not talking about them in this thread. Just Iraq and Afghanistan.

Heck you might as well add slavery to the list, which is alive and well in Africa and the same type that Europe and North America abbolished many years ago. What about the Asian prostitution trade (child and adult) and the atrosities that arose from hurricane Katrina and the tsunami.

My answer: I dont know why we sit on our hands while knowing things like this happen. The co-allition didnt invade Iraq because of what its government does to its own people.

But I dont really get what exactly you are getting at.

 

[vern_humphrey]

My answer: I dont know why we sit on our hands while knowing things like this happen.

We sit on our hands because the people who whine, “Why don’t we do something?” are apparently unable to find the recruiting station.