Suckered into an Unjust War?

[estesbob]

Doesn’t anyone every get tired of false outrage and BS?

.

You mean like the false outrage you showed because a representative could not name the last man soldier from her district who had died ? Are you still as outraged now that we find out the story was mostly bogus? Doesn’t it outrage you that they drug this soldiers. name out to score cheap political points. How do you think his family felt to see him use the in a political gotcha game-a gotcha game played on a representative that wasn’t even theirs?

 

[steveandersen]

Why are you so hot against the idea that those who push for war ought to be ready to do their share of the fighting?

Because we all serve in different ways.
Without the home fires burning what is the point of an army?
Who feeds cloths, arms, and pays the army?

Why are you so hot for the idea that citizens that can’t/won’t join the military don’t have a vote?

 

[rpp]

But I do find this post of your interesting. Since you allude specifically to “defense” you are apparently admitting to aggression on your part. IE, you are not ‘discussing’, you are ‘fighting’.

Defense is not aggression.

While you said a number of other things that I did not quote, you make it clear that you are a very poor mind reader. I suggest you try not to read my mind anymore, put words in my mouth or suggest I read books by cranks.

And based on your other posts and your confusion between aggression and defense, I would say it is you who are confused about the subject of history.

 

[Keikiolu]

Keikiolu;2765821:

What does that sound like to you, you folks out there?

Sounds like a very sensible guy.

Heh he he… I like funny folks like you, Cont. Having the inability to make a decision would be something that a protest-ant would value highly, I suppose. That’s a really very funny thing, though entirely believable thing, for your sort to expound.

Love 'ya dude…!

I wouldn’t blaspheme God’s image, for starters. The members of Al-Qaeda are not rust, vermin, or mildew.

Your charity of “interpretation” is a bit lacking, I suppose. My descriptions were aimed at the SPIRIT (demons actually) that are the source and sustenance of AlQaida, you silly moock.

The people who “populate” AlQaida are human beings to be “loved” out of their errors of belief which cause them to act as they do.

They are human beings who have given themselves over to evil–which is a much scarier thing.

So, our view of them as freely willed doers of evil is agreed upon!

Very cool…!

As for the rest of your post–you really aren’t capable of civil conversation, are you?

Edwin

Ed, or Cont, whichever,… You really can’t TAKE civil yet spirited conversation can you?

Most likely because of your being brought up by bunnies. That would be my guess. I could be wrong, of course.

…perhaps it was hampsters on sedatives.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

I have not yet heard any good evidence that the strike on 9/11 wasn’t meant to throw our economy into chaos.

Of course it was, nit wit…! Who could POSSIBLY argue that destroying the Towers wasn’t a shot at the West’s economy…?

It was the center of our world trade efforts and it took two tries and almost immediately after their success steps were taken to protect the Stock Exchange. Why was that?

Again I apologize for conflating two different wars. I never had and don’t have a problem with our going into Afganistan and am only sorry that we didn’t keep up the pressure and now have to play catch-up.

We’re not playing catch-up. Those who escaped into “hiding” did so within DAYS of the attacks on Afghanistan.

Iraq is simply another front in our war with the islamofascists.

That war IS a just war, although the way the Iraqi front was dealt with may have been a bit “clumsy”, and seemingly unjustified.

As far as the costs in terms of lives and money I still do not see that I am that far off when it comes to our Iraqi adventure.

As for being a bloody liberal, I can’t help but think the labeling as liberal or conservative appears to hinge on what side of me people stand on. I have been labeled with both labels from friends and acquaintances forever. As far as the “communist or socialist label” being a product of a 40’s through 50’s Catholic education, I am like teflon; won’t stick!

You’re like teflon, alright…!! You only stick to the pan, and, after a while, burn out, flake off and become ineffectual.

All that being said, I have quite enjoyed everyones responses. Thanks for your thoughts, all of them.

You’re quite welcome.

Nice trading barbs with 'ya.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Because we all serve in different ways.
Without the home fires burning what is the point of an army?
Who feeds cloths, arms, and pays the army?

So you’re willing to pay higher taxes – while someone else loses an arm, or his eyes, or his life?

That’s a great deal – for you!

Why are you so hot for the idea that citizens that can’t/won’t join the military don’t have a vote?

When you have to make up lies like this, you’ve lost the debate.

 

[steveandersen]

So you’re willing to pay higher taxes – while someone else loses an arm, or his eyes, or his life?

That’s a great deal – for you!

Do you know of a modern society that doesn’t send just a small percentage of the population off to fight?
In WW2 the US had 16 (?) million in uniform. Does that make the other 120 million slackers?

When you have to make up lies like this, you’ve lost the debate.

Whoa now steady there
“Lies” is strong language. I was just responding to what you said in posts #60 & 62.
“Those who will not volunteer to do the job themselves have no moral standing to demand others do it for them.”

What did you mean by that?

Where do you draw the line on that axiom? Does it mean you can’t enjoy a salad bar if you won’t pick lettuce? Does it mean you can’t call for law and order if you’re not willing to be a cop? Does it mean you can’t have a vote in national war policy if you are not a soldier?

if not then what did you mean?

When you have to answer a question with charges of lies then you’ve lost the debate.

 

[SoCalRC]

You mean like the false outrage you showed because a representative could not name the last man soldier from her district who had died ? Are you still as outraged now that we find out the story was mostly bogus? Doesn’t it outrage you that they drug this soldiers. name out to score cheap political points. How do you think his family felt to see him use the in a political gotcha game-a gotcha game played on a representative that wasn’t even theirs?

How was the story ‘bogus’? She didn’t know the name, she didn’t know an approximate count. Had she known it, or even recalled the name just prior (or any name), she would have looked concerned and legit. She did not.

Bogus would be, oh, “Swiftboat Veterens for Truth”, who lied about their service records. If you have any legitimate outrage for soldiers, why did you feel no outrage for John Kerry? Does service from only the ‘right’ sort count? If that is the case, shouldn’t we check the political views of the soldier named in this incident before deciding if he is worthy of your outrage?

Face it, the uproar about the MoveOn ad is utterly hypocritcal. Max Cleland lost nearly half his body in Vietnam, but I didn’t see any hand wringing when his Republican rival not only belittled his military service in a campaign ad, but also included pictures of Sadam and Bin Ladin to compare him to.

If you want to disagree, fine, but it seems to me that if someone is more concerned about a newspaper ad than real soldiers in a real war, their priorities are screwed up. Having that pointed out in public is going to be embarassing because, well, most people would agree with me.

Similiarly, if someone is only concerned about newspaper ads that run contrary to their own beliefs and are content with vile tactics otherwise, I think they are a shameless hypocrit. As such, I am going to take their hand wringing with a grain of salt.

Case in point, you are talking about a poor soldier’s family, but in the same breath declaring my concern and outrage to be obviously false. But, on what basis?

I’ve seen an 18 year old die in combat. Heard him wimper in pain as I held his lower intestines in my hands. Rolled what was left of him in a poncho. I’ve never lost a child, so I would not presume to claim to know what his family felt, or the holes in hearts I know his death still leaves today. But I’ve lost a friend (co-pilot in one of the last A-6’s lost) and watched his MIA status (later reclassified KIA) drive his mom to an early grave, leave a daughter whose only memories of her father are pictures and stories from strangers like me, and shred at the very fabric of his family. So if you would really like to test my sincerity on the subject, be my guest.

 

[estesbob]

If.

I’ve seen an 18 year old die in combat. Heard him wimper in pain as I held his lower intestines in my hands. Rolled what was left of him in a poncho. I’ve never lost a child, so I would not presume to claim to know what his family felt, or the holes in hearts I know his death still leaves today. But I’ve lost a friend (co-pilot in one of the last A-6’s lost) and watched his MIA status (later reclassified KIA) drive his mom to an early grave, leave a daughter whose only memories of her father are pictures and stories from strangers like me, and shred at the very fabric of his family. So if you would really like to test my sincerity on the subject, be my guest.

And how would you felt if someone had used that kids death to try and play gotcha games with a politician?

 

[rpp]

I believe the “bogus” argument stems from the fact the news crew made a mistake and the solder lived just outside of the Representative’s gerrymandered district border.

And the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth did not falsify their service record; they disputed John Kerry’s.

In a time of War, it is a very serious matter to charge a military officer with treason. The MoveOn.Org ad did just that, but not out of truth, but as a pejorative, mean-spirited rhetorical statement. As such, it angers many and is intended to. Normally, such an ad would cause the organization placing it to to lose credibility. I do not think that is the case with the MoveOn; you cannot lose something you do not have.

 

[estesbob]

How was the story ‘bogus’? She didn’t know the name, she didn’t know an approximate count. Had she known it, or even recalled the name just prior (or any name), she would have looked concerned and legit. She did not.

Bogus would be, oh, “Swiftboat Veterens for Truth”, who lied about their service records. If you have any legitimate outrage for soldiers, why did you feel no outrage for John Kerry? Does service from only the ‘right’ sort count? If that is the case, shouldn’t we check the political views of the soldier named in this incident before deciding if he is worthy of your outrage?

Face it, the uproar about the MoveOn ad is utterly hypocritcal. Max Cleland lost nearly half his body in Vietnam, but I didn’t see any hand wringing when his Republican rival not only belittled his military service in a campaign ad, but also included pictures of Sadam and Bin Ladin to compare him to.

If you want to disagree, fine, but it seems to me that if someone is more concerned about a newspaper ad than real soldiers in a real war, their priorities are screwed up. Having that pointed out in public is going to be embarassing because, well, most people would agree with me.

Similiarly, if someone is only concerned about newspaper ads that run contrary to their own beliefs and are content with vile tactics otherwise, I think they are a shameless hypocrit. As such, I am going to take their hand wringing with a grain of salt.

Case in point, you are talking about a poor soldier’s family, but in the same breath declaring my concern and outrage to be obviously false. But, on what basis?

I’ve seen an 18 year old die in combat. Heard him wimper in pain as I held his lower intestines in my hands. Rolled what was left of him in a poncho. I’ve never lost a child, so I would not presume to claim to know what his family felt, or the holes in hearts I know his death still leaves today. But I’ve lost a friend (co-pilot in one of the last A-6’s lost) and watched his MIA status (later reclassified KIA) drive his mom to an early grave, leave a daughter whose only memories of her father are pictures and stories from strangers like me, and shred at the very fabric of his family. So if you would really like to test my sincerity on the subject, be my guest.

I was remiss I not thanking you for your service to our country. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[Keikiolu]

How was the story ‘bogus’? She didn’t know the name, she didn’t know an approximate count. Had she known it, or even recalled the name just prior (or any name), she would have looked concerned and legit. She did not.

Bogus would be, oh, “Swiftboat Veterens for Truth”, who lied about their service records. If you have any legitimate outrage for soldiers, why did you feel no outrage for John Kerry? Does service from only the ‘right’ sort count? If that is the case, shouldn’t we check the political views of the soldier named in this incident before deciding if he is worthy of your outrage?

Face it, the uproar about the MoveOn ad is utterly hypocritcal. Max Cleland lost nearly half his body in Vietnam, but I didn’t see any hand wringing when his Republican rival not only belittled his military service in a campaign ad, but also included pictures of Sadam and Bin Ladin to compare him to.

If you want to disagree, fine, but it seems to me that if someone is more concerned about a newspaper ad than real soldiers in a real war, their priorities are screwed up. Having that pointed out in public is going to be embarassing because, well, most people would agree with me.

Similiarly, if someone is only concerned about newspaper ads that run contrary to their own beliefs and are content with vile tactics otherwise, I think they are a shameless hypocrit. As such, I am going to take their hand wringing with a grain of salt.

Case in point, you are talking about a poor soldier’s family, but in the same breath declaring my concern and outrage to be obviously false. But, on what basis?

I’ve seen an 18 year old die in combat. Heard him wimper in pain as I held his lower intestines in my hands. Rolled what was left of him in a poncho. I’ve never lost a child, so I would not presume to claim to know what his family felt, or the holes in hearts I know his death still leaves today. But I’ve lost a friend (co-pilot in one of the last A-6’s lost) and watched his MIA status (later reclassified KIA) drive his mom to an early grave, leave a daughter whose only memories of her father are pictures and stories from strangers like me, and shred at the very fabric of his family. So if you would really like to test my sincerity on the subject, be my guest.

I believe you’re quite sincere.

And quite demented. Your experiences and “environment” have made you what you are, as have mine me.

To be a leftist is very “cool” these days to be,… to fit in with like minded victims.

To do what is necessary to weaken the evil that is the West is often a subconscious, though often not subconscious, activity of hurt people who would like to “righteously” hurt “the big papa”.

Here’s hoping a better understanding of what “fighting against evil” means makes it’s way to where it needs to be.

Best to 'ya.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[mesquite_magic]

Nevermind

 

[estesbob]

Demented? Wow! That was a pretty cruel choice of words.

Honestly, most of us “leftists” don’t hold the war againt those who are serving in it. At least this “leftist” doesn’t. Neither does my “leftist” father who served several tours of duty in Viet Nam and knows what war does to a man. Most of us realise that military members are doing the job their (cough) Comander In Chief has ordered them to do.

Would I join the military now. Heck no. However my neice just graduated from Navy boot-camp last week and my nephew joined the Air Force two months ago. I respect their decision.

It’s their Comander In Chief whom I don’t respect. He lied to us from the very beginning. He has ruined the trust other nations had in us. He has gotten us stuck in these two wretched wars. He won’t have to clean up this mess. He’ll be gone long before this ends. Hopefully our next President can figure out a way to get our troops out without collapsing the countries they are in.

Kim

I am absolutely amazed how well reasoned, coherent posts often suddenly degenerate in anti-Bush rants.
Of course you know that your last paragraph totally wrecked the points you were trying to make in the first two?

 

[SoCalRC]

And the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth did not falsify their service record; they disputed John Kerry’s.

Alas, that is not true. Multiple individuals claimed to have concurrent service. Claims that were debunked with their own service records. A number recanted their statements.

In a time of War, it is a very serious matter to charge a military officer with treason. The MoveOn.Org ad did just that, but not out of truth, but as a pejorative, mean-spirited rhetorical statement. As such, it angers many and is intended to. Normally, such an ad would cause the organization placing it to to lose credibility. I do not think that is the case with the MoveOn; you cannot lose something you do not have.

The charges do not amount to a technical charge of treason. However, they are quite serious. The general did insist that normal checks and balances regarding finances would be too cumbersome in his assigned training details and serious charges are now being investigated for a number of his subortinates, including his assistant, regarding the misuse of funds.

Likewise, the general did write an oped piece for a newspaper asserting that the training efforst were going extremely well. Yet, at the end of his oversight, the number of Iraqi units deemed “operationally ready” had shrunk and there is no evidence that it ever reached the levels alluded to in his public piece.

Last, there are two things I find personally troubling. First, we now know that the casualty figures used before congress significantly differ from the official statistics from the pentagon. I would really like this discrepency explained. Second, Adm. Fallon, the general’s ‘boss’ at CENTCOM has been quoted as disputing the general’s assessment. I would like to see the admiral give comments under oath, not through reporters.

I am not endorsing the MoveOn ad. It actually bothered me quite a bit. But I am also bothered by the use of General Petraeus. By referring to the white house report as the “Petraeus report”, etc. the White House has been borrowing credibility from a career military officer. Then, it decided to place that officer in a political format as a spokesman for the administration. I find this a dereliction on the part of civilian authority and a troubling precedent.

Remember, all the talk about ‘commanders on the ground’ is bull. The president has fired several rounds of military commanders and replaced them with folks who are willing to pursue the war his way. General Petraeus was just the latest swap. I am sure that the general is pursuing the CIC’s instructions to the best of his ability, but the buck should not stop with him, but several steps further up the food chain.

Having picked the path, civilian authority should accept responsibility. And should also fill their proper role in the polilitcal process.

 

[SoCalRC]

Here’s hoping a better understanding of what “fighting against evil” means makes it’s way to where it needs to be.

I can only envy the clarity you must have. After all, without having to actually do the fighting, or even pay for it - your mind need not be cluttered with ugly details…