Sudden death

[coda]

coda;3477322:

The use of perfect contrition - a very special grace - is a call to Our Lord for forgiveness of mortal sin when confession (the Sacrament of Penance) is unavailable. The point that I learned almost 60 yrs ago and have not found it contradicted in those 60 yrs is this:

When one has moved from God so irreparably (that is to embrace mortal sin, rather than God) then how likely is one to be moved by a spirit of perfect contrition (sorrow for offending God)? Most discussions about this issue fall into discusssions about “habit of sin” and sudden death, the theory being quite simple. If one lives one’s life in a habit of sin, then how likely is it that God will be able to get one’s attention at the moment of a sudden death in a way that will lead one to “perfect” contrition? Not very likely.

God has my attention constantly, however,I like most people am a sinner. I NEVER want to offend God, but still do. as do most people}I realize in spite of not wanting to offend God, that i do offend Him. You must be implying that either someone is angelic in nature or by inverse totally Godless. Most people are not either, but somewhere in between to varying degrees}. I believe people are capable of sin and having perfect contrition. We all live our lives in the habit of sin. Crossing the line into mortal sin happens fo most of us at some time although confession attendance indicates the opposite}, however, it does nt mean someone is incapable of being sorry for offending God. A simple sorrow for Christ’s suffering and how unworthy we are to be called His Child is sufficient. It should not be that hard for us to have perfect contrition. The "USE’ of perfect contrition should be our goal every day, not aget out of jail free card.

 

[catharina]

coda:

God has my attention constantly, however,I like most people am a sinner. I NEVER want to offend God, but still do. as do most people}I realize in spite of not wanting to offend God, that i do offend Him. You must be implying that either someone is angelic in nature or by inverse totally Godless. Most people are not either, but somewhere in between to varying degrees}. I believe people are capable of sin and having perfect contrition. We all live our lives in the habit of sin. Crossing the line into mortal sin happens fo most of us at some time although confession attendance indicates the opposite}, however, it does nt mean someone is incapable of being sorry for offending God. A simple sorrow for Christ’s suffering and how unworthy we are to be called His Child is sufficient. It should not be that hard for us to have perfect contrition. The "USE’ of perfect contrition should be our goal every day, not aget out of jail free card.

Coda, I hope it’s clear that I’m remembering and stating what I remember first from another time and place. That is, just as folks once prayed daily for the grace of a “happy death” people prayed too to be kept from all sin, especially and always from any fall into a state of mortal sin. Teachings then - the 1940s, 50s, 60s - and now are such that there was little thought given to one living one’s life in a state that was dependent on the availability of the Sacrament of Penace to prevent a fall into hell in the event of sudden death. Rather, the “given” in thought and practice was that one guard one’s Faith (one’s soul) as one’s very life - as the only pearl of great price. If I’m not making that clear to you, then I’m sorry.

 

[coda]

coda;3479158:

Coda, I hope it’s clear that I’m remembering and stating what I remember first from another time and place. That is, just as folks once prayed daily for the grace of a “happy death” people prayed too to be kept from all sin, especially and always from any fall into a state of mortal sin. Teachings then - the 1940s, 50s, 60s - and now are such that there was little thought given to one living one’s life in a state that was dependent on the availability of the Sacrament of Penace to prevent a fall into hell in the event of sudden death. Rather, the “given” in thought and practice was that one guard one’s Faith (one’s soul) as one’s very life - as the only pearl of great price. If I’m not making that clear to you, then I’m sorry.

Your point was, and is clear to me. We are all called to perfection. Maybe you are more blessed to have been and continue to be closer to that than I. I feel I speak for most when I say I am glad my faith has provided us with the means for the faithful Who by nature have a proclivity to be sinful} to always stay connected to God. When we fall, we have an immediate duty{ and recourse] to make an act of perfect contrition. This DOES forgive all sin. Then get to confession asap before taking communio Guarding one’s faith is one thing, being perfect is another. The latter precludes the former in my opinion. I hope I was able to be clear for you as well.

 

[coda]

catharina;3479235:

Your point was, and is clear to me. We are all called to perfection. Maybe you are more blessed to have been and continue to be closer to that than I. I feel I speak for most when I say I am glad my faith has provided us with the means for the faithful Who by nature have a proclivity to be sinful} to always stay connected to God. When we fall, we have an immediate duty{ and recourse] to make an act of perfect contrition. This DOES forgive all sin. Then get to confession asap before taking communio Guarding one’s faith is one thing, being perfect is another. The latter precludes the former in my opinion. I hope I was able to be clear for you as well.

The above applies at all times, not just in cases of sudden unavoidable death. I dont live in the habit of mortal sin, nor do I [because of “progressive thought”] consider the "use’ of being perfectly contrite a ‘get out of jail free card’. P.S. i STILL pray every morning for St. Joseph to be with me at death, and that the Holy Spirit strenghthen me to not commit sin–mortal and venial. The propensity to have perfect contrition while mired in habitual mortal sin seems contradictory, but to have fallen into a mortal sin and immediately be perfectly contrite is possible… even when sudden death is apparent.

 

[catharina]

coda;3481507:

The propensity to have perfect contrition while mired in habitual mortal sin seems contradictory, but to have fallen into a mortal sin and immediately be perfectly contrite is possible… even when sudden death is apparent.

That is my point and you got it. Thanks for the struggle.

 

[coda]

coda;3481987:

That is my point and you got it. Thanks for the struggle.

Sorry for being obtuse… The point{s} you still miss are these: How could you know perfect contrition is not possible-even for the most habitual sinner}- at the moment of sudden death if you have never been there? Also, at what point in time can/do consciousness of sin and sudden death collide? The original poster asked about contrition just before sudden death…Since your opinion is that there can be no perfect contrition for an habitual sinner faced with sudden death, you must have very little trust in God’s mercy. Since the Church has never specified when , how and if for any individuals} perfect contrition is NOT possible, nor do I. By the way, the original poster never included “habitual sinner” as a point of contention…

 

[catharina]

coda;3482045:

Sorry for being obtuse… The point{s} you still miss are these: How could you know perfect contrition is not possible-[even for the most habitual sinner}- at the moment of sudden death if you have never been there? Also, at what point in time can/do consciousness of sin and sudden death collide? The original poster asked about contrition just before sudden death…Since your opinion is that there can be no perfect contrition for an habitual sinner faced with sudden death, you must have very little trust in God’s mercy. Since the Church has never specified when , how and if for any individual[s} perfect contrition is NOT possible, nor do I. By the way, the original poster never included “habitual sinner” as a point of contention…

My goodness. So sorry that you seem to feel a need to launch a personal attack at me with these words: “Since your opinion is that there can be no perfect contrition for an habitual sinner faced with sudden death, you must have very little trust in God’s mercy.”

I have not attacked you. I have attacked your error. Your error stated this: “Even imperfect contrition, in the case of sudden death, is enough to obtain God’s mercy and salvation.” That is an error; it is NOT the case when a soul is in the state of mortal sin.

Now have I refreshed your memory? If so: period, the end, case closed. Please get over it.

Nor have I ever said that “there can be no perfect contrition for an habitual sinner faced with sudden death” although you seem to imagine that I did. I’ve said (and will now say again) that it can be imprudent to believe that God Who is all-merciful AND all-just will grant the grace of perfect contrition to those who face death in the state of mortal sin. It’s a simple teaching - and I’ve heard it taught by Dominicans, Vincentians, Franciscans, Jesuits (and diocesan priests too) over the past six decades. What’s your objection to my stating this truth? Don’t twist my words, even in some futile attempt to support your own initial posted error, OK? Thanks.

You’d stated an error in regard to Church Teaching.
I corrected the error.
It’s really that simple.

[/quote]

 

[coda]

coda;3482387:

My goodness. So sorry that you seem to feel a need to launch a personal attack at me with these words: “Since your opinion is that there can be no perfect contrition for an habitual sinner faced with sudden death, you must have very little trust in God’s mercy.”

I have not attacked you. I have attacked your error. Your error stated this: “Even imperfect contrition, in the case of sudden death, is enough to obtain God’s mercy and salvation.” That is an error; it is NOT the case when a soul is in the state of mortal sin.

Now have I refreshed your memory? If so: period, the end, case closed. Please get over it.

Nor have I ever said that “there can be no perfect contrition for an habitual sinner faced with sudden death” although you seem to imagine that I did. I’ve said (and will now say again) that it can be imprudent to believe that God Who is all-merciful AND all-just will grant the grace of perfect contrition to those who face death in the state of mortal sin. It’s a simple teaching - and I’ve heard it taught by Dominicans, Vincentians, Franciscans, Jesuits (and diocesan priests too) over the past six decades. What’s your objection to my stating this truth? Don’t twist my words, even in some futile attempt to support your own initial posted error, OK? Thanks.

You’d stated an error in regard to Church Teaching.
I corrected the error.
It’s really that simple.

I did not care to be condescended towards – there was no struggle}-- which you would have realized had you READ my post which resurrected this thread… I said I had indeed made an error in citing Church teaching incorrectly… I however HAVE made an argument STATING A SECOND POINT. My memory was quite refreshed prior to reading anything you have posted since then… Read a divine mercy chaplet sometime to find out what Christ Himself said about His Mercy towards even the worst of sinners. Maybe look up St. Gertrude’s manuscript on purgatory for additional reading on God’s will for those that skimmed into pergatory only because of His infinite mercy. Its really not quite that simple, and, the case{ aside from our debating it} is certainly not closed. You have proven your own case, I have proven mine: “IMPRUDENT” DOES NOT =IMPOSSIBLE! The only ‘truth’ you can prove is simply that you have "heard it for 60 years’ from others that counting on last minute mercy is imprudent. This does not nullify the possibility of last minute mercy however. I was simply answering the original posters question, thanks!

 

[catharina]

catharina;3482556:

I did not care to be condescended towards – there was no struggle}-- which you would have realized had you READ my post which resurrected this thread… I said I had indeed made an error in citing Church teaching incorrectly… I however HAVE made an argument STATING A SECOND POINT. My memory was quite refreshed prior to reading anything you have posted since then… Read a divine mercy chaplet sometime to find out what Christ Himself said about His Mercy towards even the worst of sinners. Maybe look up St. Gertrude’s manuscript on purgatory for additional reading on God’s will for those that skimmed into pergatory only because of His infinite mercy. Its really not quite that simple, and, the case{ aside from our debating it} is certainly not closed. You have proven your own case, I have proven mine: “IMPRUDENT” DOES NOT =IMPOSSIBLE! The only ‘truth’ you can prove is simply that you have "heard it for 60 years’ from others that counting on last minute mercy is imprudent. This does not nullify the possibility of last minute mercy however. I was simply answering the original posters question, thanks!

You made an error.
I corrected it. (You’re welcome.)

Please, move on.

I have NEVER said that “last minute” Perfect Contrition (and thus, Forgiveness) is impossible. Do us BOTH a favor and move on. (Yes, I’ve found you to be quite patronizing. Why you are, I can’t imagine. You posted the error, not I.)

 

[coda]

coda;3483577:

You made an error.
I corrected it. (You’re welcome.)

Please, move on.

I have NEVER said that “last minute” Perfect Contrition (and thus, Forgiveness) is impossible. Do us BOTH a favor and move on. (Yes, I’ve found you to be quite patronizing. Why you are, I can’t imagine. You posted the error, not I.)

Thank you for your enlightenment.I ALREADY RECOGNIZED my PRIOR ERROR. I was then stating a DIFFERENT point for the original poster’s benefit. You, by the way, are quite curt and pontificating when challenged. Why you are,I can’t imagine. --Moving on…

 

[catharina]

coda;3483664:

Thank you for your enlightenment.I ALREADY RECOGNIZED my PRIOR ERROR. I was then stating a DIFFERENT point for the original poster’s benefit. You, by the way, are quite curt and pontificating when challenged. Why you are,I can’t imagine. --Moving on…

You’ve found me to be “condescending,” “pontificating” and “quite curt” “when challenged.”

I’ve found you to be patronizing. Why challenge me at all? I’ve stated no error.

I’ll use my imagination and call it even. (Go figure.)

 

[coda]

coda;3483896:

You’ve found me to be “condescending,” “pontificating” and “quite curt” “when challenged.”

I’ve found you to be patronizing. Why challenge me at all? I’ve stated no error.

I’ll use my imagination and call it even. (Go figure.)

Imaginativly speaking, I already did…

 

[catharina]

catharina;3483932:

Imaginativly speaking, I already did…

Whatever you’ve imagined (unstated), peace to you.