Suddenly confused...

[Rachele_Ann]

Hello All,

Perhaps this isn’t the best place to post this but I’ll give it a go anyway. Our parish which is decidedly more conservative has begun having the TLM. For now, its just special feasts days and one or two weekday Masses. Father offers a little lesson on both the TLM and the NO after to help us better understand. We have little photocopied Mass books with the Latin and English and sometimes, I even know what page we are on!

The problem is as follows… suddenly everything seems different to me. I have grown up with the NO and have loved the NO Mass and the church since I was a young child. Is it wrong to nurture a preference for this Mass. Is it just a novelty for me and is that why I like it? I know that our Holy Father supports the offering of the tridentine Mass but he also mentions that it is not to become the ordinary form. I suddenly feel apart from the parish in being one of the few that attends the traditional Mass.

Any one else going through this or been through this? It seems like my beliefs have been shaken up a bit, not necessarily in a bad way but just in a way that makes me ask the hard questions of my self.

Peace in Him,
Rachele Ann

P.S. This thread is not about the Pope or the validity of either Mass. Please

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with preferring the NO over the TLM. No one ought to judge you for liking to hear the Mass in a language you understand and are used to, no more than you can judge a person who would rather attend the Latin Mass. Some people prefer one form to the other, and that doesn’t matter.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Hello All,

Perhaps this isn’t the best place to post this but I’ll give it a go anyway. Our parish which is decidedly more conservative has begun having the TLM. For now, its just special feasts days and one or two weekday Masses. Father offers a little lesson on both the TLM and the NO after to help us better understand. We have little photocopied Mass books with the Latin and English and sometimes, I even know what page we are on!

The problem is as follows… suddenly everything seems different to me. I have grown up with the NO and have loved the NO Mass and the church since I was a young child. Is it wrong to nurture a preference for this Mass. Is it just a novelty for me and is that why I like it?

Are you saying that you prefer the Traditional Mass? That you have always like the N.O., but now that you have experienced the Traditional Mass you find that you like it and are not sure why? It was kind of hard to tell what you were saying.

If you are saying you prefer the Traditonal Mass, I would say you are one of many people who prefer the Traditional Mass over the Novus Ordo, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Rachele_Ann]

So sorry, see I’m so confused I can’t even post clearly! I grew up with the NO but now feel inexplicably drawn to the TLM. It sort of changes the way I view the NO which I grew up with and have always loved.

 

[sphilomena]

So sorry, see I’m so confused I can’t even post clearly! I grew up with the NO but now feel inexplicably drawn to the TLM. It sort of changes the way I view the NO which I grew up with and have always loved.

There doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with that; it is becoming a common experience. Many young people are being drawn to the supernatural aspect of the TLM - the way it lifts us to Heaven. There is a spiritual power in the wording of the ancient prayers and in the reverence. You don’t need to feel disloyal to the NO; that’s how “the enemy” would want to confuse you.

 

[puzzleannie]

people it is the SAME MASS there is only one Mass, one sacrifice, in which we participate and each and every Mass. If you think otherwise you need immediate and in depth catechesis on the Mass and the Eucharist. The TLM and NO differ in rubrics, language, timing of some prayers, who says some prayers and who responds, but does NOT differ in essentials. The reasons why you might prefer one over the other have a lot of reasons, most of them emotional, sentimental, or reaction against something you may not understand, but if that preference is rooted in the mistaken feeling or conviction that one is valid and the other is not, you have not been told the truth.

 

[BobP123]

people it is the SAME MASS there is only one Mass, one sacrifice, in which we participate and each and every Mass.

Perhaps but you won’t find it here.

In the Novus Ordo Mass, we find a new definition of the Mass in the General Preface, which reads:

“The Lord’s Supper is the assembly or gathering together of the people of God, with a priest presiding to celebrate the memorial of the Lord. For this reason the promise of Christ is particularly true of a local congregation of the Church: ‘Where two or three are gathered in my name there am I in their midst’” (General Instruction to the Novus Ordo, April 6, 1969).

 

[sphilomena]

people it is the SAME MASS there is only one Mass, one sacrifice, in which we participate and each and every Mass. If you think otherwise you need immediate and in depth catechesis on the Mass and the Eucharist. The TLM and NO differ in rubrics, language, timing of some prayers, who says some prayers and who responds, but does NOT differ in essentials. The reasons why you might prefer one over the other have a lot of reasons, most of them emotional, sentimental, or reaction against something you may not understand, but if that preference is rooted in the mistaken feeling or conviction that one is valid and the other is not, you have not been told the truth.

“Methinks thou doest protest too much.” No one has disagreed with anything you list. You point out the differences, but one huge difference is the words - the NO has the ICEL translations, which I have never heard praised. I do disagree with saying the preference is mostly emotional. For many it is a hard to describe supernatural reason. I realized this more fully years ago when I first read Father Z.'s articles comparing the translations.

 

[Rachele_Ann]

people it is the SAME MASS there is only one Mass, one sacrifice, in which we participate and each and every Mass. If you think otherwise you need immediate and in depth catechesis on the Mass and the Eucharist. The TLM and NO differ in rubrics, language, timing of some prayers, who says some prayers and who responds, but does NOT differ in essentials. The reasons why you might prefer one over the other have a lot of reasons, most of them emotional, sentimental, or reaction against something you may not understand, but if that preference is rooted in the mistaken feeling or conviction that one is valid and the other is not, you have not been told the truth.

Hi puzzleannie, thank you for your response. I didn’t mean to insinuate that one or the other forms of the Mass bears more merit or is “more” valid, and I think I tried to explain that in my original post. However, my post has already proven confusing so perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. Please be kind and withhold judgment on my knowledge of Church teaching.

The points you mention about an attraction to the ordinary or the extraordinary form as being “emotional, sentimental…” etc. is more the sort of response I was interested in. So I assume from your post that you don’t feel it is wrong to enjoy the extraordinary form, would it be appropriate to only attend that form if possible? What is it then about the TLM that appeals to the emotional or sentimental aspects of the (my) mind and soul? Is it as simple as a simple preference based on temperament?

 

[havemercy]

people it is the SAME MASS there is only one Mass, one sacrifice, in which we participate and each and every Mass. If you think otherwise you need immediate and in depth catechesis on the Mass and the Eucharist. The TLM and NO differ in rubrics, language, timing of some prayers, who says some prayers and who responds, but does NOT differ in essentials. The reasons why you might prefer one over the other have a lot of reasons, most of them emotional, sentimental, or reaction against something you may not understand, but if that preference is rooted in the mistaken feeling or conviction that one is valid and the other is not, you have not been told the truth.

I don’t disagree with you, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. However, we can’t ignore making distinctions between the two. They - both valid - are different liturgies, these two forms of the Roman Rite. One came into being gradually through the centuries (organically), while the other was, quite frankly, made. The implications of this are blatantly apparent when one compares the missals side-by-side, and does some research about the history of the NO (who it came from and why).

There’s a reason why people are gravitating to the TLM. The reverence is an obvious point, but it can be found during a NO mass, but reverence, with all the aesthetics, borders on superficiality when we consider the actual form and rubrics of the Mass of Ages. There’s more than smells and bells.

 

[paramedicgirl]

people it is the SAME MASS there is only one Mass, one sacrifice, in which we participate and each and every Mass. If you think otherwise you need immediate and in depth catechesis on the Mass and the Eucharist. The TLM and NO differ in rubrics, language, timing of some prayers, who says some prayers and who responds, but does NOT differ in essentials. The reasons why you might prefer one over the other have a lot of reasons, most of them emotional, sentimental, or reaction against something you may not understand, but if that preference is rooted in the mistaken feeling or conviction that one is valid and the other is not, you have not been told the truth.

This response seems like a knee jerk reaction to something the OP never even implied. No one on this thread implied that the TLM and the NO are not the same sacrifice. To suggest that the OP needs “immediate and in depth catechesis on the Mass and the Eucharist” is quite the stretch. Annie, did you even read these posts before you replied with guns blazing?.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

people it is the SAME MASS there is only one Mass, one sacrifice, in which we participate and each and every Mass. If you think otherwise you need immediate and in depth catechesis on the Mass and the Eucharist. The TLM and NO differ in rubrics, language, timing of some prayers, who says some prayers and who responds, but does NOT differ in essentials. The reasons why you might prefer one over the other have a lot of reasons, most of them emotional, sentimental, or reaction against something you may not understand, but if that preference is rooted in the mistaken feeling or conviction that one is valid and the other is not, you have not been told the truth.

Puzzleanne-

I really dont think that anybody was saying that they “where” different especially the OP.
What people are saying is that “yes” they are being drawn to the TLM. Is that such a “horrible” thing, of course not!

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

The problem is as follows… suddenly everything seems different to me. I have grown up with the NO and have loved the NO Mass and the church since I was a young child. Is it wrong to nurture a preference for this Mass. Is it just a novelty for me and is that why I like it? I know that our Holy Father supports the offering of the tridentine Mass but he also mentions that it is not to become the ordinary form. I suddenly feel apart from the parish in being one of the few that attends the traditional Mass.

Ultra-orthodoxy is an escape hatch from orthodoxy. If the orthodox Church has lost all credibility it is very difficult for younger people to remain part of it - no twenty year old wants to socialise with a bunch of old grannies and a guy in his late fifties with a beard strumming a guitar.
For most the way out is to simply abandon the faith. However there are always some who don’t like to do this. Ultra-orthodoxy is a way of rejecting orthodoxy without betraying it. We’ve left the old grannies and the guy with the guitar behind, and we’ve maybe got a tiny congregation for a Latin Mass. But it is a younger, committed congregation. New people are coming in faster than the old ones are dying off, or if they die its because they’ve been beaten up at an anti-abortion demo rather than through Alzheimer’s. So it’s new and its exciting and its something you want to be involved with.

The thing is to be aware of and recognise these forces. But don’t deny that you have legitimate emotional needs. The Church is asking the impossible of young people- to reject sex and consumerism with zero support, even from itself. There is not the slightest formal acknowledgement that it might be better to be poor and a virgin. There must be a few saints somewhere who can do this, but the rest of us need friends who are also virgins, also poor, also committed.

 

[stmaria]

So sorry, see I’m so confused I can’t even post clearly! I grew up with the NO but now feel inexplicably drawn to the TLM. It sort of changes the way I view the NO which I grew up with and have always loved.

Rachele Ann, would you be so kind as to answer a few questions?
I have been wondering how a Novus Ordo parish would celebrate the TLM.
Was the TLM celebrated by a FSSP priest or the parish priest that normally celebrates the OF?
Was the Tabernacle placed back on the altar or was it still located somewhere else?
Was the Mass celebrated with altar boys or altar girls?
Was communion received standing or kneeling?
Was communion given on the tongue or in the hand?

 

[Rachele_Ann]

Of course stmaria!

1. It was celebrated by one of our own diocesan priests who has been trained in the TLM. I suspect it has been his preference for his private Mass for some time.
2. My parish is a true NO parish unlike many older parishes that still have their high altars and communion rails, we lack these structures… so I think some planning went into it. Some time ago, maybe more than a year the tabernacle was moved from a side altar to where the high altar would normally be, well I suppose that’s what it is now… but its not like you would see in an old church. And that is where the Mass was said. (I’ve actually been intending to ask Father about this as I thought the tabernacle wasn’t supposed to be on the altar where Mass was said. )

3.Altar boys, they are older, high school aged. There are only two trained thus far to serve the TLM, but they do such a wonderful job!

1. Communion is received while kneeling, today we just knelt on the first step of the altar, yesterday they had a row of kneelers set up.
2. Communion was only received on the tounge.

What does OF stand for?

 

[TNT]

So sorry, see I’m so confused I can’t even post clearly! I grew up with the NO but now feel inexplicably drawn to the TLM. It sort of changes the way I view the NO which I grew up with and have always loved.

With God inspired biblical names like Rachele & Ann, what would you expect?
Actually, that’s what normally happens. The opposite would be the exception. The inexplicable is call the Holy Ghost and His Angels.

 

[DustinsDad]

people it is the SAME MASS there is only one Mass, one sacrifice, in which we participate and each and every Mass. If you think otherwise you need immediate and in depth catechesis on the Mass and the Eucharist. The TLM and NO differ in rubrics, language, timing of some prayers, who says some prayers and who responds, but does NOT differ in essentials. The reasons why you might prefer one over the other have a lot of reasons, most of them emotional, sentimental, or reaction against something you may not understand, but if that preference is rooted in the mistaken feeling or conviction that one is valid and the other is not, you have not been told the truth.

Puzzleannie,

The Sacrifice is the same - infinite. Man’s part can vary. The Council of Trent had this to say about the liturgy of the church:

SESSION 22, CHAPTER V.
On the solemn ceremonies of the Sacrifice of the Mass. And whereas such is the nature of man, that, without external helps, he cannot easily be raised to the meditation of divine things; therefore has holy Mother Church instituted certain rites, to wit that certain things be pronounced in the mass in a low, and others in a louder, tone. She has likewise employed ceremonies, such as mystic benedictions, lights, incense, vestments, and many other things of this kind, derived from an apostolical discipline and tradition, whereby both the majesty of so great a sacrifice might be recommended, and the minds of the faithful be excited, by those visible signs of religion and piety, to the contemplation of those most sublime things which are hidden in this sacrifice.

So yes - the sacrifice is the same. The liturgical rubrics, the symbols used therein, and the very language of the prayers, etc., because they differ, can also differ in how effective they are in affecting the minds and hearts of the faithful.

Again, with any valid mass, God’s part is always infinite and good - man’s part? Well, not so much. It can vary. Alot depends of the man…and alot depends on the liturgy.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[stmaria]

Of course stmaria!

1. It was celebrated by one of our own diocesan priests who has been trained in the TLM. I suspect it has been his preference for his private Mass for some time.
2. My parish is a true NO parish unlike many older parishes that still have their high altars and communion rails, we lack these structures… so I think some planning went into it. Some time ago, maybe more than a year the tabernacle was moved from a side altar to where the high altar would normally be, well I suppose that’s what it is now… but its not like you would see in an old church. And that is where the Mass was said. (I’ve actually been intending to ask Father about this as I thought the tabernacle wasn’t supposed to be on the altar where Mass was said. )
   3.Altar boys, they are older, high school aged. There are only two trained thus far to serve the TLM, but they do such a wonderful job!
3. Communion is received while kneeling, today we just knelt on the first step of the altar, yesterday they had a row of kneelers set up.
4. Communion was only received on the tounge.

What does OF stand for?

OF stands for Ordinary Form which is the new name for the New Mass. EF stands for Extaordinary Form which is the new name for the TLM.
I hope you personally thank your priest for being true to the Traditional Mass. I was afraid that there would be altar girls and communion in the hand received while standing.
The Tabernacle should always be in a prominent place. In the TLM it should be on the Altar or at least directly behind it so that the priest can face God in the Tabernacle while he is saying Mass.
As Pope Pius XII said, " “To separate tabernacle from altar is to separate two things which by their origin and nature should remain united”
I assume that the Mass you have now is a Low Mass. Just wait until you have a Choir that can sing all the Traditional Music and Gregorian Chant.

 

[jj2011]

So sorry, see I’m so confused I can’t even post clearly! I grew up with the NO but now feel inexplicably drawn to the TLM.

That’s great! For most of church history there has been some liturgical diversity; there was no one rite for the western church until 1570, and even then there was tolerance for rites over 200 years old. In the eastern church there has always been a diversity of rites.

A certain Catholic journalist once called the TLM the “principal historical rite” of the western church. I think that’s right, and there’s no reason you should feel funny about being drawn to it.

 

[scylla]

I am worried about going to a TLM as I have gone to the NO all my life and I constantly have to close my eyes in prayer to focus on the Mass itself and not on the abuses. (I live in California)

There is a real fear as people who like the EF Mass are viewed suspiciously and talked as if they reject the Pope, and are crazy. Latin is not something you want to mention in my parish.

I saw the Ordinary form of the Mass done with reverence for the first time, (in Latin) a while ago and it actually seemed like we were truly focusing on God, it was great. So I too am worried as I don’t want to feel any worse when I am attending my parish.
I don’t want to poison the Mass which I attend by seeing something that from what it sounds like, really focuses on worship of God.

The more I study of Catholic worship the more I resist going to the EF of the Mass as I don’t want to get hooked. I want to participate and help my parish be faithful and it is very difficult to do so as the more I know, the more I feel I need to stand up for.

What is a person to do? Just close my eyes and ignore everything? I don’t think there is anything wrong with liking the Latin Mass, I just don’t know if it is right to limit my conscience.

God Bless
Scylla