Suffering a painful friendship with a foolish, prideful, manipulative woman?

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mommamaree

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This is a long post, with some back story, so I really appreciate anyone who is able to read and respond! Thank you!
Hello all. I have sought help here before regarding my very challenging relationship with a woman in my life. She was my first friend after my conversion, and she offered to be godmother to my children so they could get baptized. She has also been available to watch my kids on a few occasions, like when I had to take one of my kids to the ER for stitches. So, for these reasons, I have been very thankful for her. However, she has a notorious history of alienating friends, and I can see why. She wastes her time in interactions with people on foolish things, drama, gossip, self-aggrandizing, belittling others, etc. So while she has been there for me a few times over the years in crisis moments (as I have for her), she is very toxic and she never misses an opportunity to put me down. I have attempted several times to distance myself from her, but it has been very challenging. When she realizes I have been absent for a while, she suddenly takes an interest in getting together with me. It feels like she is suddenly aware that I am not wrapped up in her drama, and needs to draw me back in to secure her narcissistic supply.
I don’t know what else she could possibly want from me, because everything I do is either wrong, or else I am being judgemental, in her eyes. If I don’t maintain a position of submission in conversational tone, she brings up something she knows of me to put me down and to indicate her superiority and my failings. I would never do this to someone, and it appalls me and mortifies me how much my striving to become a better person gets twisted to throw in my face my failings. I just want to melt into the floor. After interactions with her lately, I have started to have anxiety attacks that are directly related to the things she says to me, or the ways in which I did not defend myself.
I have tried to be charitable. I have tried the direct approach of verbally ending the friendship, I have tried giving her another chance, and another chance, and another chance. I have tried quietly distancing myself. Nothing seems to be the right approach. I don’t know what God could possibly want of me regarding her. I strive to be holy, but I am not so detached that I can withstand her behavior without being injured. I want to love her the way Christ would have me do, but I do not know how to absorb her “abuse” and offer it up.
My husband and my family and friends are concerned about my continuing to interact with her. They say she is manipulative and abusive. I know they are correct, but I feel that I have already invested too much of my heart in my friendship with her, and I want my actions to be pleasing to the Lord. I have prayed about this, I have gone to confession about this, and situations where I am presented with opportunities to be a friend to her continue to occur, and almost always occur just prior to Mass. It never fails, that if I am on my way to my normal Mass time (not their normal Mass), I will either run into them at Mass and have her publicly ignore me, or I will pass them in our cars going the opposite direction (not to Mass) or I will receive a text from her requesting something of me in friendship just before I go into Mass. I keep having in mind the Christ’s exhortation about if your brother has something against you when you are on your way to offer your sacrifice at the altar, leave your sacrifice and go make peace with your brother and then come back to offer your sacrifice. The thing is, I haven’t been the hurtful one, and I don’t wish harm to her. I just want to be left alone to be able to move on and heal from a toxic friendship. I wish the best for her and remember sometimes to pray for her. What more can God want from me? Is it possible, for Christians, to be in friendship with someone like this despite their poor behavior, and to actually be able to spend time alone with hurtful people, in order to be obedient to God and to be Christ-like. How do I discern God’s will?
 
mommamaree said:
The thing is, I haven’t been the hurtful one, and I don’t wish harm to her. I just want to be left alone to be able to move on and heal from a toxic friendship.
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As difficult as it will be, you must tell her this, and then you must stick to your guns.
If she ignores you- oh well.
If she spreads gossip- oh well.

Do not retaliate, do not engage her at all. Walk away.

You cannot change the way another person behaves, you can only change your behavior.
And doing that is the only way you will find the peace you seek.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
As difficult as it will be, you must tell her this, and then you must stick to your guns.
If she ignores you- oh well.
If she spreads gossip- oh well.

Do not retaliate, do not engage her at all. Walk away.

You cannot change the way another person behaves, you can only change your behavior.
And doing that is the only way you will find the peace you seek.
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I know I cannot change her behavior. I am asking if God requires me to continue being in her presence and just offer it up. I am asking if God would want me to change myself so that I can better able to be around her and be there for her. There is nothing that I can possibly get out of this friendship other than God making me holier. She is what I would consider to be a “saint-maker”, meaning if I can remain in a friendship with her and love her even though it hurts, God will surely make me a saint.
 
“But Jesus would not trust himself to them because he knew them all, and did not need anyone to testify about human nature. He himself understood it well.” John 2:24-25

“I feel that I have already invested too much of my heart in my friendship with her, and I want my actions to be pleasing to the Lord.”

For the Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born. **Mark 14:21 **

She has been a Judas to you, not a friend. More to the point, if you tolerate behavior that she does not repent from, why will she ever repent and learn to do better with other friends? If anything, you are a near occasion of sin for her. She knows she can get away with the worst with you, and so you bring out the worst in her.

If you are not going to cut off contact with her for your own sake, do it for hers. Do not say anything bad about her to anyone who does not have business to know it, but do as your family and friends are urging and really cut her off.

By the way, Christ’s exhortation has to do with situations where you are aware that you have wronged someone else. It is not about situations where someone has it in mind to wrong you or simply finds you useful to some end of theirs. If the woman does not need you to call 9-11 for her, then her requests can wait until you have kept your appointment with the Lord.

Remember, too, Christ’s words about the brother who has wronged you: “If your brother sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector." Matt. 18:15-17 IOW, if someone is abusive and refuses to recognize this as a fault, let alone asking for forgiveness in an honest effort to reform themselves, then we are not talking about a seventy-times-seven forgiveness situation. We’re talking about someone who doesn’t want an appropriate relationship. This is someone we “treat as a Gentile”, which is to say someone who deserves decent treatment, but does not deserve to be held close in the bosom of friendship.

Friendship is a reciprocal bond of mutual love, so no, it is not possible to have a friendship with someone who uses and abuses you. Do not contact her any more. When she tries to contact you, refuse to talk. Just say, “No, we have been over this. I’m sorry. We’re done. Goodbye and good luck.” If the conversation is somehow forced to go longer, just tell her you have explained your needs too many times already, you have given her too many chances already, and you are done, having concluded that the two of you are not meant to be close friends, that you ought to each find more suitable friends. She may respond with vitriol, she may tell you that you are no Christian, she may throw every guilt trip in the book at you. Alternatively, she may beg with you, claiming that she will do better. Have none of it. Just say, “I wish you well, but we are finished. We are simply not good fit. I am sorry. I hope you find someone who will be a better fit for you. Goodbye.” Be as low-key and un-dramatic as possible, avoid accusation as much as possible, because the day for debating faults is long past. You do not want to provoke a desire for retaliation or spite in her. You just want to convince her that you are firm in your decision to stop this pointless experiment, because it is not working for you. No blame on her necessary, but you are done. Period.

I would not worry about gossip from someone like this. Those who don’t know to consider the source will come around soon enough, because this woman does not have the art to seem wonderful to all but a few victims. She is wonderful for a short time, but shows her true colors to everyone eventually. That is the kind of gossip who is usually taken with more than a grain of salt, if she is believed at all.
 
mommamaree said:
This is a long post, with some back story, so I really appreciate anyone who is able to read and respond! Thank you!
Hello all. I have sought help here before regarding my very challenging relationship with a woman in my life. She was my first friend after my conversion, and she offered to be godmother to my children so they could get baptized. She has also been available to watch my kids on a few occasions, like when I had to take one of my kids to the ER for stitches. So, for these reasons, I have been very thankful for her. However, she has a notorious history of alienating friends, and I can see why. She wastes her time in interactions with people on foolish things, drama, gossip, self-aggrandizing, belittling others, etc. So while she has been there for me a few times over the years in crisis moments (as I have for her), she is very toxic and she never misses an opportunity to put me down. I have attempted several times to distance myself from her, but it has been very challenging. When she realizes I have been absent for a while, she suddenly takes an interest in getting together with me. It feels like she is suddenly aware that I am not wrapped up in her drama, and needs to draw me back in to secure her narcissistic supply.
I don’t know what else she could possibly want from me, because everything I do is either wrong, or else I am being judgemental, in her eyes. If I don’t maintain a position of submission in conversational tone, she brings up something she knows of me to put me down and to indicate her superiority and my failings. I would never do this to someone, and it appalls me and mortifies me how much my striving to become a better person gets twisted to throw in my face my failings. I just want to melt into the floor. After interactions with her lately, I have started to have anxiety attacks that are directly related to the things she says to me, or the ways in which I did not defend myself.
I have tried to be charitable. I have tried the direct approach of verbally ending the friendship, I have tried giving her another chance, and another chance, and another chance. I have tried quietly distancing myself. Nothing seems to be the right approach. I don’t know what God could possibly want of me regarding her. I strive to be holy, but I am not so detached that I can withstand her behavior without being injured. I want to love her the way Christ would have me do, but I do not know how to absorb her “abuse” and offer it up.
My husband and my family and friends are concerned about my continuing to interact with her. They say she is manipulative and abusive. I know they are correct, but I feel that I have already invested too much of my heart in my friendship with her, and I want my actions to be pleasing to the Lord. I have prayed about this, I have gone to confession about this, and situations where I am presented with opportunities to be a friend to her continue to occur, and almost always occur just prior to Mass. It never fails, that if I am on my way to my normal Mass time (not their normal Mass), I will either run into them at Mass and have her publicly ignore me, or I will pass them in our cars going the opposite direction (not to Mass) or I will receive a text from her requesting something of me in friendship just before I go into Mass. I keep having in mind the Christ’s exhortation about if your brother has something against you when you are on your way to offer your sacrifice at the altar, leave your sacrifice and go make peace with your brother and then come back to offer your sacrifice. The thing is, I haven’t been the hurtful one, and I don’t wish harm to her. I just want to be left alone to be able to move on and heal from a toxic friendship. I wish the best for her and remember sometimes to pray for her. What more can God want from me? Is it possible, for Christians, to be in friendship with someone like this despite their poor behavior, and to actually be able to spend time alone with hurtful people, in order to be obedient to God and to be Christ-like. How do I discern God’s will?
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The woman is question is not your friend. IMHO you should run not walk away from this relationship.

Annie
 
Easter Joy,
The second to last paragraph is like a play-by-play analysis of the years of my friendship with her. I recently verbally ended it, politely and without extensive reasoning, but she begged for another chance. She was tearful and saying that she doesn’t understand why this keeps happening to her. She promised to do better. It didn’t even last one week.
So she has asked forgiveness, but always quickly returns to the behavior. So I just started investing myself in other friends, and now she has requested an appointment with me this week. I didn’t want to go, but I agreed. It was her birthday, the Lord’s day and I was about to go to Mass. What else could I say?!
I just want to do the right thing. I may be an occasion of sin for her, but so is everyone, even her husband and children. I know of no one who has been close to her and not put down or manipulated. Our entire group of friends had been impacted by this and my choice will have consequences for all of us. So I really need to be sure before I act, especially with respect to this week’s appointment.
 
mommamaree said:
Easter Joy,
The second to last paragraph is like a play-by-play analysis of the years of my friendship with her. I recently verbally ended it, politely and without extensive reasoning, but she begged for another chance. She was tearful and saying that she doesn’t understand why this keeps happening to her. She promised to do better. It didn’t even last one week.
So she has asked forgiveness, but always quickly returns to the behavior. So I just started investing myself in other friends, and now she has requested an appointment with me this week. I didn’t want to go, but I agreed. It was her birthday, the Lord’s day and I was about to go to Mass. What else could I say?!
I just want to do the right thing. I may be an occasion of sin for her, but so is everyone, even her husband and children. I know of no one who has been close to her and not put down or manipulated. Our entire group of friends had been impacted by this and my choice will have consequences for all of us. So I really need to be sure before I act, especially with respect to this week’s appointment.
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She has proven that she is lying to you when she asks for forgiveness, then. This is not just how she treats you, either, but the pattern of her life. If she has you over a barrel whenever she calls you right before Mass, then don’t answer the phone right before Mass. You’ve lived enough of your life with a shameless manipulator, right? Dare to see through this one, too. Hear her tears for the bids for manipulation that they are. What if they are real this time? In that case, she will suffer the fate of the boy who cried wolf. She may just realize that she has the work of building a reputation for integrity ahead of her. I very much doubt that, but if she is going to be redeemed, the gate is in that direction. Please give her another prompt in that direction. Of all the friends she has burned through, who knows, perhaps you will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back, and she’ll get it. Unlikely, but what other chance does she have?

If you said you’d meet her for her birthday, then do it. If she abuses you or anyone else, though, be just as willing to get up and leave as you ought to have been on any other day. She doesn’t get a “holiday” from treating other people like human beings. What, are you afraid you will offend her by refusing to be her doormat? Are you afraid she’ll stop calling you?

After that, don’t make any more commitments to see her. Don’t even give her the chance to ask. Just say, “Charlotte, I’ve told you a dozen times I want you to stop calling me. This time, I’ve decided to make it stick. I’m sorry, but do not call me back. I don’t wish you any harm, but I’ve gone through enough harm myself. You don’t get what I’ve been trying to tell you, and I’m done. I don’t mind shaking your hand if we meet in the street, but as for a close friendship, we are done. Period. Goodbye and go in peace.” And then hang up and don’t answer the phone for awhile.

If, someday, a mutual friend contacts you and says that she wants to introduce you to the New Charlotte, be willing to listen to her story. Be skeptical, but be willing to believe that sometimes grace does break through to redeem the lost. We can only hope. Do not, however, accept any more calls from “Charlotte” herself.
 
mommamaree said:
No she is not my friend. However, I have been her friend.
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She has been good to you, here and there, sometimes even when you were in real need. She has abused your friendship, though, and broken trust. She has made it clear that you have not been offered a reliable relationship of mutual support.

It is not as if you cannot talk to her at coffee and doughnuts or work with her at a booth at the parish fundraiser. We are not suggesting strife nor emnity. We are suggesting very firm boundaries concerning where she is allowed with regards to your trust. You can allow her to talk to you at church, but forbid her from calling you for favors. You can agree to be near her in public, but do not let her have room on your social calendar. Follow the course of “treating her like a Gentile”; be kind, be at peace, but do not put her in a position of trust. You could help her in real need–sure, join on the list to bring supper to her house if she has to go through chemo!–but do not enable her bad habit of using other people. Do not give her chances to sit you down and bad mouth you and those you love. Most of all, give yourself permission to reject her bids to erode your resolve by telling you bald-faced lies about what has really gone on between you. Always ask yourself: Is she using an emotional show to get away with a lie? Is she using timing to get away with a lie? Has she again chosen me as someone to lie to? Do not worry yourself about whether she lies to herself, too. That is beyond your concern.

Now, it may be that you will have to put in more distance at first, because you are not strong enough to keep her from walking on you if she is allowed closer. That is OK. If someone were doing this to someone you loved, you would not force the person you loved to lay on the street and be driven over. It is OK to actively avoid her if, because of your background and experience, you know you need some room to make this stick. That is totally OK. Use the yardstick of what you would expect your daughter to do in a similar situation, and I think you will choose well.
 
Easter Joy,
This is the plan I had in mind, too. I have promised to meet her for her birthday, and so I will. I will be kind, but not solicitous of confidences. I will get up and walk out this time if she starts up again with badmouthing or manipulation. And I will continue to NOT invite her to do anything. I will pray for her, and will not commit detraction. I only have talked about this situation with the others who have been being mistreated by her during this time, and we do not speak of it often, just enough to help each other make Christian decisions. If she behaves herself, then maybe I will consider a possible future meeting, if I feel like I can handle it.
I want, for my own self, to act with integrity and to bear wrongs patiently, just because Jesus asks me to do so. But sometimes my very core rebels against the notion of exposing myself to people who want only to use me and discard me as they see fit. I imagine Jesus well knows how that feels. Perhaps, the occasions where I must endure such treatment well teach me to identify more with Christ and less in my own ego.
 
mommamaree said:
Easter Joy,
This is the plan I had in mind, too. I have promised to meet her for her birthday, and so I will. I will be kind, but not solicitous of confidences. I will get up and walk out this time if she starts up again with badmouthing or manipulation. And I will continue to NOT invite her to do anything. I will pray for her, and will not commit detraction. I only have talked about this situation with the others who have been being mistreated by her during this time, and we do not speak of it often, just enough to help each other make Christian decisions. If she behaves herself, then maybe I will consider a possible future meeting, if I feel like I can handle it.
I want, for my own self, to act with integrity and to bear wrongs patiently, just because Jesus asks me to do so. But sometimes my very core rebels against the notion of exposing myself to people who want only to use me and discard me as they see fit. I imagine Jesus well knows how that feels. Perhaps, the occasions where I must endure such treatment well teach me to identify more with Christ and less in my own ego.
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You have it. The idea is to protect yourself from this woman as you would protect one stranger from another. If you were on a train and saw one woman treating another as this woman treats you, you would feel you ought to step in and stop her abuse. You would tell her not to talk that way, not to call and bother her friend when she knew she was interrupting her on her way to Mass but found it the time her friend was the most vulnerable. You’d make the offender stop it! Contrast this with the situation where one woman is being subjected to the human foibles of another, and the “victim” was being patient and Christian. Perhaps the woman with the fault would have something to confess, something to apologize for, but you would not feel a need to intervene. Instead, you would instruct yourself to imitate the patient friend, in that second case. Use that as your guide.
 
mommamaree said:
I know I cannot change her behavior. I am asking if God requires me to continue being in her presence and just offer it up.
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What does your priest say about this?

I know that some saints were enjoined to remain in company with very cranky people, but maybe that was a heroic thing to do and not something that everyone needs to do? Esp since those saints tended to be nuns or monks rather than having a mother-wife state of life.
I am asking if God would want me to change myself so that I can better able to be around her and be there for her.
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God also sends us grace for special “missions” like this. I’d really discuss this with a priest, or spiritual director if you have one.
There is nothing that I can possibly get out of this friendship other than God making me holier. She is what I would consider to be a “saint-maker”, meaning if I can remain in a friendship with her and love her even though it hurts, God will surely make me a saint.
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I think you also said something about having already invested a lot in this relationship. Sometimes we have to realize that we are throwing good money after bad…

Overall, I’d say, get caller id and never answer your phone when you don’t have time to talk. Never check texts just before Mass (you can pray instead). Don’t agree to do things with her or for her.

And consider that Christ also told His disciples to shake the dust of towns which wouldn’t listen to them off their sandals as they left.

ETA: I don’t know how texts work, but can you block them altogether? If so, do so.
 
mommamaree said:
Easter Joy,
This is the plan I had in mind, too. I have promised to meet her for her birthday, and so I will. I will be kind, but not solicitous of confidences. I will get up and walk out this time if she starts up again with badmouthing or manipulation. And I will continue to NOT invite her to do anything. I will pray for her, and will not commit detraction. I only have talked about this situation with the others who have been being mistreated by her during this time, and we do not speak of it often, just enough to help each other make Christian decisions. If she behaves herself, then maybe I will consider a possible future meeting, if I feel like I can handle it.
QUOTE]

This tentatively seems like a good plan. One thing to remember, though, is that if she continues in her bad behavior, you aren’t doing her any favors by allowing yourself to be a target. I have an abusive and alcoholic mother, and it took a wise priest in Confession pointing out that almost every interaction with her was abusive, that she had no intention of changing, and that I, in a way was putting her in a near occasion of sin by contacting her at all for me to cut contact.

I had/have a friend similar to the one you describe. She has been there for me on many occasions when no one else was while I was a broke and lonely high school and then college student. However, now that I’m independent and do not require emotional support, she spends nearly every interaction with me tearing me down. I think she has a need to be needed, and is threatened by the fact that I am happy and content. The last time I saw her was on Thanksgiving, when she came to my house for dinner. Over the course of the afternoon, she criticized my house, my decorating style, my housekeeping, my cooking, my husband (for daring to watch a football game, something which is the norm for us here on Thanksgiving), the time at which we say grace over dinner (?!), and even told me that I couldn’t paint my baby’s room a particular color unless certain qualifications were met. (?!?!!!) :eek:

It was a really horrible six hours.

However, I guess I needed her to be that obvious in order to know that I had to set some very firm boundaries. She’d been pretty critical in the past, but never that bad before. I’m not sure if she’ll ever be invited to my house in the future, and I have no intention of calling her in order to suggest that we get together. If she calls me and suggests that, then I’m going to explain courteously but firmly that I will not tolerate this sort of behavior again. If she does it after that–well, if we happen to meet socially I’ll be polite, but I will not go out of my way to give her any more ammunition to use against me, and I am not going to volunteer to be her punching bag.
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mommamaree said:
I have attempted several times to distance myself from her, but it has been very challenging. When she realizes I have been absent for a while, she suddenly takes an interest in getting together with me. It feels like she is suddenly aware that I am not wrapped up in her drama, and needs to draw me back in to secure her narcissistic supply.
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Oh gosh, this is so like a situation of friendship I was involved in. We had been friends since starting at playgroup when our oldest children were one. I remained in the friendship for 15 years before finally making a lasting break. She undermined me in a way that shocked me to the core. I’d always given her benefit of the doubt when she did things that appeared deliberately selfish, but this was beyond douubt. She tried to laugh it all off and pretend like I was over reacting but I firmly told her that I wanted a month away from the friendship to think things over. She had to agree and in that time I grew more and more resolved to stay away.
but I feel that I have already invested too much of my heart in my friendship with her, and I want my actions to be pleasing to the Lord.
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I struggled with this too, but in retrospect, I can see how that was the weakness that this woman exploited time and time again. It’s only now in the last 6 years of being away from her, that I can see how much of my self worth she affected, especially my ability as a mother. I am so grateful and relieved to have trusted that what I was doing in ending the friendship was the right thing to do. I can even now look back on the 15 years and be genuinely grateful for the aspects of her that were admirable and generous and true gifts of the Lord and can wish her well in life.

But not for one second do I regret ending the friendship. My only regret is that I didn’t end it much sooner for both our sakes.
 
mommamaree,

Like many of the others who’ve posted in this thread I also had a “friend” like this - or more accurately a “frenemy.” She was the one who initially broke up the friendship on some trumped-up something or other (really, I think I no longer served her purposes), but then continued to harass me for months. I had to block her on FB, block her on email, ban her from commenting on my blog, and put her number on a “Do Not Answer” contact list (something I usually reserve for telemarketers) on my cell phone. For someone who said she never wanted to have anything to do with me ever again, she certainly contacted me a lot!

At first I was really angry and heartbroken, because I had poured so much into the relationship and she just treated it like it was nothing. You do go through a kind of grief over the loss of the relationship, and there’s a mourning period. But I’m so glad she’s not there dragging me down anymore. I’ll be civil if I have to see her (we do have some mutual friends), but my life is no longer governed by what she thinks of me and my desperate attempts to seek her approval. I’ve been through some really cruddy stuff the past few months, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel now and it’s GREAT. :whackadoo: You don’t owe it to people to let them treat you badly, whether that’s a friend or a spouse or a cousin or a stranger on the street. You are worth more than that, and so are they.

God bless you. :flowers:
 
I’m sorry this is happening to you. I had an experience with a “friend” from whom I had to break all ties. I found myself dreading speaking to her (let alone seeing her), and after we did speak, I felt emotionally exhausted. Everything from her was constant criticism. I brought this up to her several times, and each time she promised not to do it again. But, itt was like she couldn’t help herself. There was a significant age difference between us and she tried to take on a “motherly” role, since I was living away from my family. I neither wanted nor needed a substitute mother, and I made the mistake of not setting up boundaries. One of the last straws for me was when I framed my parents wedding picture and I was so excited to show it to her, and you know what she said to me? “Your mother is not an attractive woman”. She had previously criticized people who went to state universities as being “stupid” (even though she knew I went to one); always made disparaging remarks about 'the working class" (even thought she knew my family mainly consisted of steelworkers), but the remark about my mother was too much. When I told her how much it hurt, she denied saying it. I just couldn’t deal with it anymore and I had to ask myself “are you happier with her in your life or without her”. The answer is without.
 
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