Suffering and knowledge

[carn]

As far as i understand the following to statements would be consistent with church teaching, with the first being dogma as far as i know:

Jesus always knew He is God.

Jesus suffered like man suffers.

But they are inconsistent, so please help me understanding.

The problem of course is that the quality of suffering depends a lot on what one knows, especially the knowledge about the purpose or absence of purpose of the suffering and the long and short term outlook of the situation.

E.g. there is a free climber, who had his arm trapped beneath a large rock in a desolate area. After several days waiting in vain, he amputated his arm and walked some 10 miles to the nearest road. In this case the man was able to endure the suffering because he was absoultely certain that it was his only chance to survive. Without this knowledge he would never been able to amputate his arm and then walk 10 miles.

When i once broke my leg the pain immidieately was very intense and i could only scream. Then after half a minute a first helper arrived and the pain was immidieately less intense and far easier to bear. Simply because i knew that things would now improve and someone would take care of me.

And thats the problem with the above two statements. If Jesus always knew He is God, then, while He suffered physically as men suffers, He did not suffer as men suffer, because the deepest and darkest suffering is the one without hope, when there is only painand not the slightest glimmer of hope. If Jesus always knew He is God, he did not suffer from hopelessness as man suffers.

 

[Philotheatoo]

I have to disagree. My sister, like me, looks forward to meeting God. Therefore, the suffering she is presently enduring as a result of her ovarian cancer is real ~ just as Jesus’ was real. The pain is real. The fear is real. We still have to get from here to there. It is the crossing over that we fear. We know we will get there but, what is in between? In the meantime, we still experience the real, the physical, pain.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

As far as i understand the following to statements would be consistent with church teaching, with the first being dogma as far as i know:

Jesus always knew He is God.

Jesus suffered like man suffers.

But they are inconsistent, so please help me understanding.

The problem of course is that the quality of suffering depends a lot on what one knows, especially the knowledge about the purpose or absence of purpose of the suffering and the long and short term outlook of the situation.

E.g. there is a free climber, who had his arm trapped beneath a large rock in a desolate area. After several days waiting in vain, he amputated his arm and walked some 10 miles to the nearest road. In this case the man was able to endure the suffering because he was absoultely certain that it was his only chance to survive. Without this knowledge he would never been able to amputate his arm and then walk 10 miles.

When i once broke my leg the pain immidieately was very intense and i could only scream. Then after half a minute a first helper arrived and the pain was immidieately less intense and far easier to bear. Simply because i knew that things would now improve and someone would take care of me.

And thats the problem with the above two statements. If Jesus always knew He is God, then, while He suffered physically as men suffers, He did not suffer as men suffer, because the deepest and darkest suffering is the one without hope, when there is only painand not the slightest glimmer of hope. If Jesus always knew He is God, he did not suffer from hopelessness as man suffers.

Jesus had all that suffering you mentioned, except sin.

 

[carn]

Jesus had all that suffering you mentioned, except sin.

How could He sufer from doubt about the purpose of His suffering?

 

[Myqyl]

He did not suffer as men suffer, because the deepest and darkest suffering is the one without hope, when there is only pain and not the slightest glimmer of hope. If Jesus always knew He is God, he did not suffer from hopelessness as man suffers.

But mankind, through Jesus Christ, has that exact same hope. We may not always “see” or appreciate the Hope we have, but none of us should ever consider ourselves to be “Hopeless”… We have Hope in and through Jesus Christ!

Can I get an Amen?

God bless

 

[WoundedIcon]

As far as i understand the following to statements would be consistent with church teaching, with the first being dogma as far as i know:

Jesus always knew He is God.

Jesus suffered like man suffers.

But they are inconsistent, so please help me understanding.

The problem of course is that the quality of suffering depends a lot on what one knows, especially the knowledge about the purpose or absence of purpose of the suffering and the long and short term outlook of the situation.

E.g. there is a free climber, who had his arm trapped beneath a large rock in a desolate area. After several days waiting in vain, he amputated his arm and walked some 10 miles to the nearest road. In this case the man was able to endure the suffering because he was absoultely certain that it was his only chance to survive. Without this knowledge he would never been able to amputate his arm and then walk 10 miles.

When i once broke my leg the pain immidieately was very intense and i could only scream. Then after half a minute a first helper arrived and the pain was immidieately less intense and far easier to bear. Simply because i knew that things would now improve and someone would take care of me.

And thats the problem with the above two statements. If Jesus always knew He is God, then, while He suffered physically as men suffers, He did not suffer as men suffer, because the deepest and darkest suffering is the one without hope, when there is only painand not the slightest glimmer of hope. If Jesus always knew He is God, he did not suffer from hopelessness as man suffers.

I understand your logic, and I think it makes sense… this is something I’ve been wondering about for a while now. How can someone suffer when they already know the positive outcome of the event. Jesus came already knowing that at the other end things would be fine, so how could the in-between scare Him? And technically Jesus, because He was God, was incapable of despair… so I’m confused, especially in light of the agony in the garden. I know there is the whole issue of the two natures of Christ to deal with here, but I don’t understand how His human nature could react in such a way that seemingly goes against the knowledge of His divine nature. I guess we could say that His human nature, even though it knew the positive outcome, was reacting against the difficulty it had to go through in order to achieve it.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

You have it slightly incorrect. Jesus didn’t suffer intensely because of anything to do with knowledge. Jesus suffered intensely because he was righteous - he had no sin and had to take on the sins of others. Imagine being put into jail for life because of another person’s crime which you had no involvement in. That image sums up why Jesus’ suffering was intense. Isaiah prophesied that: “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not” (Isaiah 53:3). This, and when Isaiah mentions later that “the LORD laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:6), shows to those reading that Jesus did no crime which made him worthy of being crucified. He was entirely innocent. His crucifixion was a completely voluntary act that opened up Heaven for Humanity.

As for Jesus crying out “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani” (translated as “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me”), this has a dual meaning. First and foremostly, it was a fulfillment of Old Testament: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?” (Psalm 22:1). It was also an indication of Jesus’ very much human-self, as it shows that Jesus had an immediate biological knee-jerk reaction. If you ever see some videos of historical events where people are on the verge of dying, what you often find is that people begin praying to God, or they lament about why God put them in that position. So when Jesus cried out, this was an indication of Jesus’ humanity.

 

[carn]

But mankind, through Jesus Christ, has that exact same hope. We may not always “see” or appreciate the Hope we have, but none of us should ever consider ourselves to be “Hopeless”… We have Hope in and through Jesus Christ!

Can I get an Amen?

God bless

Unfortunately not, knowing and having faith is not the same, so it is not the exact same hope.

@WoundedIcon

Its difficult to describe, but if i would know about a positive outcome suffering would still be suffering but it would be in a relevant way different from suffering with doubt about or lack of knowledge about positive outcome or even with knowledge of a negative outcome.

 

[Bearontherun]

God knows our suffering and will not give us more than we can handle. He provides us with the grace to get through it.

“God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength but with your testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

His knowledge of the good outcomes of suffering is also met with His knowledge of the heartbreaking reality that some of His creatures choose to turn against Him - permanently. This pain He suffers due to the rejection of His love by some of us is arguably greater than the suffering due to lack of knowledge that we humans can experience IMHO.

 

[carn]

You have it slightly incorrect. Jesus didn’t suffer intensely because of anything to do with knowledge. Jesus suffered intensely because he was righteous - he had no sin and had to take on the sins of others.

And you misunderstand. Its not the question, whether or why he suffered, but if and why his suffering is similar to the suffering of man.

Imagine being put into jail for life because of another person’s crime which you had no involvement in. That image sums up why Jesus’ suffering was intense.

But the suffering differs - at least if i imagine it - greatly whether im just to rot in jail or whether i know that by accepting that fate i can help others.

If you ever see some videos of historical events where people are on the verge of dying, what you often find is that people begin praying to God, or they lament about why God put them in that position.

Side question: Evidence for that claim?

 

[carn]

This pain He suffers due to the rejection of His love by some of us is arguably greater than the suffering due to lack of knowledge that we humans can experience IMHO.

While this is a good point, it would still mean a suffering very different from human suffering.
Just to remind i started with these 2 statements:
Jesus always knew He is God.

Jesus suffered like man suffers.

and concluded they contradict each other as far as i understand them.

 

[Sonny1954]

Popular or not, I take more solace from the poetry of the ancient Greeks than anyone else.

“He who learns must suffer. Injustice is the nature of things…For even in our sleep pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until in our despair and against our will, comes wisdom from the awful grace of god.” – Aeschylus.

We cannot escape or avoid suffering. He can hide from it for a few minutes, or temporarily numb ourselves to it with intoxicants, which is ultimately self-destructive.

“Having done what men could, they suffered what men must.”

 

[JRKH]

Carn,

To be honest I have found that this is something that I have just had to put into the “mystery” box and let it be.

What I am about to write may not be in precise accord with the understandings of the Church and I am not presenting this as a doctrine or teaching…Merely as some ideas or talking points…

******************************** Begin Conjecture
During the years that I was away from the Church I had begun to develop a sense of Jesus “the man”. This is something that is basically ignored in our Catechesis (at least in mine). Jesus as God is seen as much more important.
Anyway, during this time - while I was sojourning in the wilderness - I began to consider this matter and came to the conclusion that either Jesus “became God” or that His divinity was some how there but “veiled”, especially in his early life…
I have since learned that the “became God” is a heresy so, of course, I have recanted any belief in this. However, I still suspect that something similar to his divinity being “veiled” might be at play.

Jesus did not simply come as “God” to do something that we could not - though certainly that aspect exists. He came as an example of what Man could do if man is in God and God is in man. Why else would Jesus declare that we too must suffer for righteousness sake, that we must take up our cross, that we must be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect…

When Jesus was born, he became man. We are told that he did not see Godhood something to be grasped but came in the form of a slave. Certainly in order for Him to learn to be a man, he needed to live as a man, without his “godhood”. So - as Mary and Joseph’s child, he was just that a regular child who grew to manhood as a man…
now here it gets a bit tricky. While he was doing this, the Father and the Holy Spirit were carefully watching over him, guiding him and preventing any sin. Not unlike God watches over us and prompting us through our conscience - sometimes even before we actually come to believe. Of course in Jesus case, it was an absolute protection.

Then - when John began baptizing and Jesus came to be baptized - and the Voice came from heaven…things began to break…The realization of who he was drove him into the desert to do battle with all of the “humanity” that He had developed. Of course the Holy Spirit - His Holy Spirit - was there to guide Him and strengthen Him so that the defeat of the Satanic temptations was made complete.

After this point, Jesus moved forward in confidence and with full knowledge of who He was. BUT without full knowledge of exactly how everything was going to unfold. Remember that Jesus said that only the Father knew when the world would end. So while Jesus knew who He was, and where he was headed (as revealed in Scripture) He may not have known all of the details of how the Father was to bring everything about.
So Jesus, the Son of God, made incarnate for our salvation - He too had to walk in faith - but in perfect faith so as to show us the way - “obedient even unto death”.

That is why Jesus could plead in the Garden that the cup be taken away. That is why Jesus could cry out “why have you forsaken me” as he hung on the cross…

******************************************* End of Conjecture.

Others may take the above apart and point out errors grave and small. I am fine with that. I’m sure that the conjecture above very likely contains both.
I offer it simply as one, very crude, very incomplete, idea of how to try to reconcile the two natures.

Peace
James

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

How could He sufer from doubt about the purpose of His suffering?

How could He:

• not knowing how to talk and learn?
• not knowing how to read and read?
• doubt about the writing and speaking of words?
• How could He ask asny question? Or were His questions all fake?
• How could he eat and drink and had necessities like everybody?
• How could He ask for 3 hours the Father not to be crucified ,
• How could the devil tempt Him?

Your qeustion is part of the game.

 

[thistle]

As far as i understand the following to statements would be consistent with church teaching, with the first being dogma as far as i know:

Jesus always knew He is God.

Jesus suffered like man suffers.

But they are inconsistent, so please help me understanding.

The problem of course is that the quality of suffering depends a lot on what one knows, especially the knowledge about the purpose or absence of purpose of the suffering and the long and short term outlook of the situation.

E.g. there is a free climber, who had his arm trapped beneath a large rock in a desolate area. After several days waiting in vain, he amputated his arm and walked some 10 miles to the nearest road. In this case the man was able to endure the suffering because he was absoultely certain that it was his only chance to survive. Without this knowledge he would never been able to amputate his arm and then walk 10 miles.

When i once broke my leg the pain immidieately was very intense and i could only scream. Then after half a minute a first helper arrived and the pain was immidieately less intense and far easier to bear. Simply because i knew that things would now improve and someone would take care of me.

And thats the problem with the above two statements. If Jesus always knew He is God, then, while He suffered physically as men suffers, He did not suffer as men suffer, because the deepest and darkest suffering is the one without hope, when there is only painand not the slightest glimmer of hope. If Jesus always knew He is God, he did not suffer from hopelessness as man suffers.

Jesus was fully God and fully man. His suffering as a man was fully as a man.

 

[jdobbins]

While this is a good point, it would still mean a suffering very different from human suffering.
Just to remind i started with these 2 statements:
Jesus always knew He is God.

Jesus suffered like man suffers.

and concluded they contradict each other as far as i understand them.

They are not contradictory. Jesus loves us infinitely, and when we reject His love and reject what He did for us and choose hell instead of His offering of divine love, His suffering is and was immense. Jesus is a Divine Person with a Divine nature and a human nature. Because He has a human nature He experiences everything we do, including pain, and probably more exquisitely than we do because His body was perfect and unblemished.s St. Paul says, He is like us in all things but sin.

 

[Jcnava15]

I think you’re forcing the issue here.

There is no inconsistency here, and here is why;

-Jesus knew he was God.
-Jesus suffered like men.

But,

-JESUS WAS SINLESS
-The wages of Sin are spiritual death.
-Spiritual death is the ultimate suffering a man can experience (hopelessness, doubt, etc).
-Jesus never sinned, so he never experienced the suffering that resulted from sin; spiritual death.

You have to take him for what he is, completely as he is. You may think this is just a clever way around the argument, but the reality is that the Jesus you had in mind is the Jesus of Christianity, and the Jesus preached by Christianity is also Sinless amongst other things.

If you are talking about a Christ who wasnt sinless, than any inconsistencies you find in that Christ do not concern Christians in the least.

Jesus knew he was God, but you can know he is God too, and that enables you to endure all the suffering he endured, give up sin, and avoid the wages of sin.

 

[eddadonkey]

As far as i understand the following to statements would be consistent with church teaching, with the first being dogma as far as i know:

Jesus always knew He is God.

Jesus suffered like man suffers.

But they are inconsistent, so please help me understanding.

The problem of course is that the quality of suffering depends a lot on what one knows, especially the knowledge about the purpose or absence of purpose of the suffering and the long and short term outlook of the situation.

E.g. there is a free climber, who had his arm trapped beneath a large rock in a desolate area. After several days waiting in vain, he amputated his arm and walked some 10 miles to the nearest road. In this case the man was able to endure the suffering because he was absoultely certain that it was his only chance to survive. Without this knowledge he would never been able to amputate his arm and then walk 10 miles.

When i once broke my leg the pain immidieately was very intense and i could only scream. Then after half a minute a first helper arrived and the pain was immidieately less intense and far easier to bear. Simply because i knew that things would now improve and someone would take care of me.

And thats the problem with the above two statements. If Jesus always knew He is God, then, while He suffered physically as men suffers, He did not suffer as men suffer, because the deepest and darkest suffering is the one without hope, when there is only painand not the slightest glimmer of hope. If Jesus always knew He is God, he did not suffer from hopelessness as man suffers.

Actually I am a bit lost on your reasoning, for three reasons. One, even though (or because) Jesus is God, He still knows, upon the start of His Passion, that He had no escape from horrible suffering but death. His situation was hopeless, His only hope was death.

Second, yes, maybe the deepest and darkest suffering is to be without hope of any kind…but that is sin. Despair is sin, and Jesus never sinned. In other words, despair is one kind of pain that is forbidden by God.

And thirdly, there is one kind of pain that Jesus knew that we could never have, by the mere fact that Jesus is God: He knew, to most precise detail, when, where, how, and why He was going to die. Just think about it: from the moment He could think during His childhood He knows all the details of His torture and death, and each and every event in His life He knows He is getting closer to His death. Can you understand now why He collapsed in agony at the garden of Gethsemane? Thirty years of carrying this knowledge finally broke His will that night.

This, by the way, is the idea behind the icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help:



If you would look closely, the Child Jesus sees the implements of the passion being carried by the angels, and, in fright, clings to her mother Mary. This is symbolized by the undone sandal at His foot: He got so frightened that either He didn’t have the chance to finish tying His sandals, or His sandals got undone while He was running towards Mary. Mary then looks at you, the viewer, seemingly to say, “I comforted and helped our Lord throughout His life, through His nightmares and pains. Why do you think I cannot help you?”

 

[carn]

His situation was hopeless, His only hope was death.

No, its not hopeless, if one follows a plan that one knows will work. That is more the opposite of hopeless.

And doubt and uncertainity are not a matter of sin. Assume you walk though life without doubt that you are walking the correct path. Thats hybris.

So you must have doubt and uncertainity to some extent. And in that Christ was not like man.

 

[AnoopP]

And thirdly, there is one kind of pain that Jesus knew that we could never have, by the mere fact that Jesus is God: He knew, to most precise detail, when, where, how, and why He was going to die. Just think about it: from the moment He could think during His childhood He knows all the details of His torture and death, and each and every event in His life He knows He is getting closer to His death. Can you understand now why He collapsed in agony at the garden of Gethsemane? Thirty years of carrying this knowledge finally broke His will that night.

Exactly what I too was thinking. The mere fact that Jesus knew all his sufferings beforehand would make his life really horrible. That for me a real pain.