Suffering and Purgatory

[Muzhik]

Greetings! I got into a discussion with some Protestant friends over Purgatory. One person wrote this:

But I’m perplexed as to how suffering after death can achieve purity when it seems to be a different formula when one is alive.

I tried to make the case for redemptive suffering and the benefits for both you and the other person when you take your suffering and unite it with Jesus on the Cross. His reply was this:

…let me put it this way - does suffering remove sin? What removes our sin?

The answer, of course, is “nothing but the Blood of Jesus.” (If you haven’t guessed, he’s “once saved always saved”, which eliminates the need or even the desirability of bearing suffering.)

So I’ve hit a mental roadblock. What is a good reply that explains the role that suffering (or rather, enduring suffering) plays in our salvation and the salvation of others?

 

[DavidFilmer]

So I’ve hit a mental roadblock. What is a good reply that explains the role that suffering (or rather, enduring suffering) plays in our salvation and the salvation of others?

I’m not sure if the Church has ever authoritatively taught about the nature of our suffering in purgatory. I have read theologians (who might have been expressing Doctrine, or their own opinion) who say that in purgatory we become aware of the true nature of our sins (and how they offend God), and our suffering is a result of our remorse - which, in theological terms, would be called perfect (or true) contrition. Just as perfect contrition can expiate our sins on earth, it can do so in purgatory. Nice and tidy, from a theological perspective.

However, in purgatory, our remorse would be much deeper than is possible while on earth, because we are spiritual beings unencumbered (and not distracted) by the flesh, while at the same time possessing a spiritual awareness that we did not have on earth.

This does not present any new core doctrines to protestants - they would agree that if we are sorry for our sins (ie, repent) then God will forgive us. Purgatory offers us the opportunity to repent of all venial sins which have not been forgiven while on earth, enabling us to enter heaven completely free from all stain of sin.

 

[Heuchler]

Why would Jesus have to suffer unless suffering was a good and honorable thing to do. If it doesn’t help to remove sin, why suffer. Besides Christ’s blood is just human blood. Nothing particularly special. What made it special was the sacrifice behind it. The suffering was what cleansed us as Christ was the sacrifice. Every protestant should acknowledge that. So, every sacrifice involved the killing of the animal. The animal was the scapegoat which was the replacement for the human who had sinned. Since the punishment for sin is death, and since all are sinners meaning we would all die, the world needed a scapegoat to kill instead to make up for sins. Christ was the perfect scapegoat as He was the infinite God who could take on all sins throughout the ages if we only look to His mercy. It was His suffering and death (which involved the spilling of his blood which is specifically suffering, if it was simply his blood we could have sent him to a blood bank.) that has saved us.

The Bible also tells us repeatedly of the good in suffering. “Take up your cross” Christ himself in that phrase tells us to bear our burdens and follow him. “Greater love hath no man than to die for one’s friends.” To suffer to the point of death is real love and love and sin don’t usually work well together. We are also shown the virtue in suffering through the story of Job. It is by our suffering that we show God our faith and our commitment to Him. Christ also told us to follow him even unto death. I think that is going to require suffering. If suffering is not wrong, helps us grow in our faith and love, and teaches us to be thankful then I think it would be a great way to be clensed.

And if we are truly sorry for our sins then we would long to make up for our sins. We make up for our sins by accepting the consequences of sin which is suffering. And through accepting the consequences of our actions we are once again becoming more responsible and good beings.

Hopefully this will help your protestant friend

 

[EricFilmer]

I tried to make the case for redemptive suffering and the benefits for both you and the other person when you take your suffering and unite it with Jesus on the Cross. His reply was this:

…let me put it this way - does suffering remove sin? What removes our sin?

The answer, of course, is “nothing but the Blood of Jesus.” (If you haven’t guessed, he’s “once saved always saved”, which eliminates the need or even the desirability of bearing suffering.)

So I’ve hit a mental roadblock. What is a good reply that explains the role that suffering (or rather, enduring suffering) plays in our salvation and the salvation of others?

Your friend seems to have immediately dismissed the value of suffering because our own suffering (apart from the passion of Christ) does not have the power to remove sin. But why does suffering have to remove sin in order to have value? Suffering can have a lot of value when seen as part of contrition. In the Psalms we learn that God desires a contrite heart more than the sacrifice of animals. Contrition encompasses such ideas as sorrow, regret, shame, guilt, etc. In light of this, how does one authentically undergo contrition without suffering in this manner?

For thou hast no delight in sacrifice;
were I to give a burnt offering, thou wouldst not be pleased.
The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. (Psalm 51:16-17, RSV)

This passage from Psalm 51 certainly seems to suggest a sense of suffering with its description of a broken spirit and a broken heart.

And even though Protestants do not believe in Purgatory, I think it is safe to say that most of them believe that God does something to purify our souls prior to entry into heaven. After all, the Book of Revelation says that our souls must be pure before we can enter heaven:

But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Rev. 21:27, RSV)

How many people die with 100% pure souls? Not many, I’d imagine. Many people may die in a state of grace (and be justified by God) but this is not the same thing as saying that such souls have reached the perfection of the souls in heaven. So God must do something to purify our souls after we die but before we enter into heaven. Catholics call this “something” Purgatory, but even if Protestants reject the doctrine of Purgatory, it seems that on some level they believe in a process of purification.

With all this in mind, we can imagine that a process of purification of our souls ought to include the concept of contrition. As I stated above, authentic contrition would involve a type of suffering. So, in my opinion, the question is not whether or not our suffering is necessary for the removal of sin, but whether or not suffering plays a part in terms of contrition.

For the record, I agree with what the Church teaches about redemptive suffering, but I was simply trying to formulate a response that I think many Protestants would find agreeable (from a biblical standpoint).

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

On Christ’s Blood, which is called “Precious”:

Now Christ’s blood or His bodily life, which “is in the blood,” is the price of our redemption (Leviticus 17:11-14), and that life He paid. Hence both of these belong immediately to Christ as man; but to the Trinity as to the first and remote cause, to whom Christ’s life belonged as to its first author, and from whom Christ received the inspiration of suffering for us. Consequently it is proper to Christ as man to be the Redeemer immediately; although the redemption may be ascribed to the whole Trinity as its first cause.

We need not call it merely “human blood”.

Protestant theology was founded on the merits of Jesus “covering our sins” as a white snow covers a pile of dung. As they have moved away from that they move toward the Catholic view of perfecting the sinner by cooperation with God’s Grace in which we merit the reward promised.

We are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength… something we cannot do on our own no matter how much we want to. It takes God working in us “to will and to accomplish” Philippians 2:13.

SALVIFICI DOLORIS ON THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF HUMAN SUFFERING

For suffering cannot be transformed and changed by a grace from outside, but from within. And Christ through his own salvific suffering is very much present in every human suffering, and can act from within that suffering by the powers of his Spirit of truth, his consoling Spirit.

But in general it can be said that almost always the individual enters suffering with a typically human protest and with the question “why”. … The answer which comes through this sharing, by way of the interior encounter with the Master, is in itself something more than the mere abstract answer to the question about the meaning of suffering. For it is above all a call. It is a vocation. Christ does not explain in the abstract the reasons for suffering, but before all else he says: “Follow me!”. Come! Take part through your suffering in this work of saving the world, a salvation achieved through my suffering! Through my Cross. Gradually, as the individual takes up his cross, spiritually uniting himself to the Cross of Christ, the salvific meaning of suffering is revealed before him. He does not discover this meaning at his own human level, but at the level of the suffering of Christ. At the same time, however, from this level of Christ the salvific meaning of suffering descends to man’s level and becomes, in a sense, the individual’s personal response. It is then that man finds in his suffering interior peace and even spiritual joy.

By denying themselves and taking up their cross, those in the contempletative life do penance for themselves and others.

By penance they strive to atone for the offenses of sinful humanity, to appease God’s wrath and ward off its direful effects, by giving vicarious satisfaction to the demands of His justice. Their lives of perpetual abnegation and privation, of hardship cheerfully endured, of self-inflicted suffering, joined to the sufferings of their Divine Master and Model help to repair the evil men do and obtain God’s mercy for the evildoers. They plead and make reparation for all men.

As the message of Fatima, we are called to make reparations for sins and do penance. We do this in perfecting our virtues and accepting what God sends, He Who has numbered the very hairs of our head, Matt. 10:30. Cooperation with God in this perfects us and allows us entrance into heaven because we are then truly adoptive sons of God fully imbued with His Life. Failing this perfection, we need the perfecting fire of purgatory.

 

[MarcoPolo]

You can also always go to the Scripture with some people. After all, if we don’t have to suffer as any part of our salvation then these passages seem to make no sense:*Acts 14:22 …strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the Kingdom of God.

Philippians 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for Him…

Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

1 Peter 2:20-21 But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice to the extent that you share in the sufferings of Christ, so that when his glory is revealed you may also rejoice exultantly.

Hebrews 12:7-10 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. *If your friend has the theological prowess to grasp it, you can also try to explain how we are “members of the Body of Christ” and at the Last Supper, Christ told us how his “body is given up.” If you look in the Catechism, you will see how the sacrifice of the Church is also presented in concert with the sacrifice of the altar (CCC#1368). As Christ the head suffered, so too do we, mystically suffer with Christ on the Cross—which is of course the source of salvation. Christ’s sacrifice extends through time and space through the members of his body mystically, not just as it did physically through the anatomical members pierced in his incarnate body. So to deny the efficacy of Christian suffering is to deny the very sacrifice of Christ itself.

 

[NorthTexan88]

I have a question, about the holy souls in Purgatory. If I were to die and end up in Purgatory, how would I know that I wasn’t in hell? If there is suffering, will I just instinctively know it’s the fire of God’s love? I’ve been thinking about and praying for the souls in purgatory and have been thinking about this.

 

[Heuchler]

It is different from Hell. Hell is a place of despair for both the body and soul. You are experiencing pain and bodily suffering. You are also completely apart from God and will feel no love at all. To me the punishment for the soul is a lot more scary than bodily punishment.

This is completely different from purgatory where you will experience a suffering probably similar to a sacrifice. You are giving something up for a greater good. On earth this is giving up money to give to the poor. In purgatory this might be anything but as I haven’t been there so can’t attest. But you will be giving up something (maybe it will be discomfort there, maybe it will simply be time in a place without the beatific vision we can’t know). However, throughout it you will be looking forward and consoled by the fact that one day you will be going to Heaven.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I have a question, about the holy souls in Purgatory. If I were to die and end up in Purgatory, how would I know that I wasn’t in hell? If there is suffering, will I just instinctively know it’s the fire of God’s love? I’ve been thinking about and praying for the souls in purgatory and have been thinking about this.

You do not have to worry about “how” they know to pray for them. The Church’s definition of purgatory does not absolutely include the idea of “suffering” although that seems to be indicated in Scripture and some saints’ writings. The definition is that it is purification before entering heaven.

All the same, if there is “suffering” then those same saints’ also often speak of the intense “joy” that is also there because the soul is given knowledge that he/she has made it! One of the more famous private revelations describing what the soul goes through in Purgatory is St. Catherine of Genoa’s Treatise on Purgatory. It’s not too long and it is interesting reading. You may want to check it out. It may help your focus when you pray for those dear souls.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

It is different from Hell. Hell is a place of despair for both the body and soul. You are experiencing pain and bodily suffering. You are also completely apart from God and will feel no love at all. To me the punishment for the soul is a lot more scary than bodily punishment.

This is completely different from purgatory where you will experience a suffering probably similar to a sacrifice. You are giving something up for a greater good. On earth this is giving up money to give to the poor. In purgatory this might be anything but as I haven’t been there so can’t attest. But you will be giving up something (maybe it will be discomfort there, maybe it will simply be time in a place without the beatific vision we can’t know). However, throughout it you will be looking forward and consoled by the fact that one day you will be going to Heaven.

St. Thomas was of a different opinion:

Appendix II, Article 2. Whether it is the same place where souls are cleansed, and the damned punished? On the contrary, Gregory says [The quotation is from St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei i, 8)]: “Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed.” Therefore the fire of Purgatory is the same as the fire of hell: and hence they are in the same place.

St. Faustina, in her diary, was told by God when she was in His presence that she deserved one day in purgatory but was allowed to merit this purgation on earth. It would seem that God is truly a Father Who guides and not merely an abstract set of rules and judgments, and perhaps He will be that Father to us, too, by informing us we are sheep, goats, or in need of purgatory.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Philippians 3:8-11: “Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his suffering, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead”

Paul understands that the suffering he endures serves as a way to be like Christ, as well as it being for Christ’s sake. This passage follows a text where Paul speaks about all he had gained according to the flesh, being a Hebrew and a Pharisee. However, he now considers this gain to be loss and refuse, compared to gaining Christ through his sufferings. He gains righteousness not through his own power but through Christ’s.

Paul sees himself as participating in the Passion of Christ. Because we are being saved through the death and resurrection of Christ we must participate in his Passion to obtain salvation.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Greetings! I got into a discussion with some Protestant friends over Purgatory. One person wrote this:

But I’m perplexed as to how suffering after death can achieve purity when it seems to be a different formula when one is alive.

I tried to make the case for redemptive suffering and the benefits for both you and the other person when you take your suffering and unite it with Jesus on the Cross. His reply was this:

…let me put it this way - does suffering remove sin? What removes our sin?

The answer, of course, is “nothing but the Blood of Jesus.” (If you haven’t guessed, he’s “once saved always saved”, which eliminates the need or even the desirability of bearing suffering.)

So I’ve hit a mental roadblock. What is a good reply that explains the role that suffering (or rather, enduring suffering) plays in our salvation and the salvation of others?

Actually, I am on his side to some extent. One problem is what does he mean by suffering? Hell is actually eternal separation form god, while purgatory would likely be partial separation. So if you mean suffering as having to wait because of sin I agree with you; however if you mean suffering as having your body beaten or burnt I don’t agree.

I have a question, about the holy souls in Purgatory. If I were to die and end up in Purgatory, how would I know that I wasn’t in hell? If there is suffering, will I just instinctively know it’s the fire of God’s love? I’ve been thinking about and praying for the souls in purgatory and have been thinking about this.

try Luke 16:19