Suffering; does it have a purpose?

[marimagi]

Always like really always, like best of all possible worlds always? Or is there a qualification that makes it fall somewhat short of that?

I’ve suffered a lot; like Lifetime movie suffered. Wouldn’t want to go through one bit of it again. But I have to admit that I gained much more than I lost. I have firsthand insights into things I could not have learned any other way, and I am able to help others with them (I’m a counselor.) I have grown so much closer to God and because of a horrifically painful surgery I had last year, I grew close to Our Lady as well.

I can’t think of one miserable thing I went through in my life, that wasn’t put to some sort of good. But it is up to us to choose whether to allow our sufferings to produce fruit, or make us rotten. I have had people commit true evils against me. But because I have ultimately used what I learned for the good, evil is defeated. I believe that this is how God defeats evil in our world…when we choose to bring much more good out of evil, than the suffering evil intended.

 

[pacloc]

Suffering always has a purpose. To think otherwise is to believe God is not in total control of everything and has not forseen everything. The various ways in which we suffer are all unique and mean different things. To speak of “SUFFERING” as a topic is a little too broad. St. John Chrysostom writes beautifully on the subject of God’s reasons for allowing the evil to prosper and the good to suffer, and vice versa, why he allows the good to prosper and the evil to suffer. A reason why God allows the perceived injustices is because it forces us to have FAITH in the RESURRECTION in which true justice will be administered. This link takes you to the whole article:

newadvent.org/fathers/1919.htm

1. And what is the use of all this, says one, when the heaven indeed, and sun, and moon, and the band of stars, and all the rest keep much good order, but our affairs are full of confusion and disorder. What kind of confusion, O man, and disorder? A certain one, says he, is rich, and overbearing, He is rapacious and covetous, he drains the substance of the poor day by day, and suffers no terrible affliction. Another lives in forbearance, self-restraint, and uprightness, and is adorned with all other good qualities, and is chastened with poverty and disease, and extremely terrible afflictions. Are these then the matters which offend you? Yes, these, says he. If then you see both of the rapacious, many chastened, and of those living virtuously, yea some even enjoying countless goods, why do you not abandon your opinion, and be content with the Almighty? Because it is this very thing which offends me more. For why when there are two evil men, is one chastened, and another gets off, and escapes; and when there are two good men, one is honoured, and the other continues under punishment? And this very thing is a very great work of God’s providence. For if he were to chasten all the evil men, here; and were to honour here all the good men, a day of judgment were superfluous. Again if he were to chasten no wicked man, nor were to honour any of the good, then the base would become baser and worse, as being more careless than the excellent, and they who were minded to blaspheme would accuse God all the more, and say that our affairs were altogether deprived of his providence. For if when certain evil men are chastened, and certain good men punished, they likewise say that human affairs are subject to no providence; if even this did not happen what would they not say? And what words would they not send forth? On this account some of the wicked he chastens, and some he does not chasten and some of the good he honours and some he does not honour. He does not chasten all, in order that he may persuade you, that there is a Resurrection. But he chastens some in order that he may make the more careless, through fear by means of the punishment of the others, more in earnest. Again he honours certain of the good, in order that he may lead on others by his honours to emulate their virtue. But he does not honour all, in order that you may learn that there is another season for rendering to all their recompense. For if indeed all were to receive their deserts here, they would disbelieve the account of the Resurrection. But if no one were to receive his desert here, the majority would become more careless. On this account some he chastens, and others he does not chasten, profiting both those who are chastened, and those who are not chastened. For he separates their wickedness from those, and he makes the others by their punishment, more self-restrained. And this is manifest from what Christ himself said. For when they announced to him that a tower had been brought to the ground, and had buried certain men, he saith to them “What do you think? That these men were sinners only? I say to you nay, but if ye do not repent ye also shall suffer the same thing.”

 

[PJM]

=JonNC;10852473]True, so when one has handled suffering in a way that is not
Destructive, here then is a chance to help someone
Who is struggling.

Jon

Absolutely.

What’s important is that we UNDERSTAND suffering has a purpose. It can be good or bad depending on our acceptace or rejection od God’s Will for us. Amen

Pat/PJM

 

[Marie5890]

I think a very important distinction needs to be made here.

IN and of ITSELF, suffering, apart from God’s Grace, has no value.

But, BECAUSE of God’s Grace, suffering is redeemed and has great value.

If one takes away the power of God’s grace from suffering, it has zero value. Zero.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

It tests us and creates a moral reality which would otherwise not be present without it.

 

[JonNC]

Absolutely.

What’s important is that we UNDERSTAND suffering has a purpose. It can be good or bad depending on our acceptace or rejection od God’s Will for us. Amen

Pat/PJM

I agree that God can use suffering for His purposes, clearly. I don’t think that God, necessarily, makes use of the “Job scenario”. How we witness to His grace during suffering is so important.

Jon

 

[Marie5890]

I agree that God can use suffering for His purposes, clearly. I don’t think that God, necessarily, makes use of the “Job scenario”. How we witness to His grace during suffering is so important.

Jon

Amen.

 

[Monergistic]

I think a very important distinction needs to be made here.

IN and of ITSELF, suffering, apart from God’s Grace, has no value.

But, BECAUSE of God’s Grace, suffering is redeemed and has great value.

If one takes away the power of God’s grace from suffering, it has zero value. Zero.

I agree with you, Marie.

Suffering for the purpose of glorifying God seems, to me, like a kind of suffering that only applies to a certain kind of person all or nearly all the time and to most Christians only some of the time. When given practical examples outside of that, it becomes more difficult to say the suffering is put in someone’s life according to the will of God and we can therefore find some positive in it.

As an example, think about a child with no parents. This child is abused by adults as he grows up and displays violent tendencies toward children his own age. The suffering endured by a child, who is one of the least of these, and the ripple effect of the suffering caused more directly by a child who is broken- this is the kind of suffering that anyone would just want to put a stop to. You try to teach forgiveness and help people heal, but this is the kind of suffering that a) happens all the time, b) involves sin, which suffering is so frequently wrapped up in, and c) anyone would just want to reduce or eliminate as much as possible, there’s nothing wrong with the desire to do so, and that doesn’t really imply that God is any less sovereign.

Orphanages are the kinds of places where Catholics have always been the most consistent and admirable bulwarks against this kind of suffering. I don’t feel like those orphanages are filled with Job scenarios, I know you don’t think so either Marie, and I seriously doubt that Catholic nuns approach orphaned children with that kind of mindset on a daily basis. These children need to understand that God puts all suffering in your life for a reason, and you need to learn to find the good in it…yeah, I don’t think that’s how you approach it with these types of kids.

 

[pablope]

Does suffering have a purpose, or is it just the human condition?

From the words of St. John Vianney:

acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2006/08/catechism-on-suffering-by-st-john.html

There are two ways of suffering – to suffer with love, and to suffer without love. The saints suffered everything with joy, patience, and perseverance, because they loved. As for us, we suffer with anger, vexation, and weariness, because we do not love. If we loved God, we should love crosses, we should wish for them, we should take pleasure in them. . . . We should be happy to be able to suffer for the love of Him who lovingly suffered for us. Of what do we complain? Alas! the poor infidels, who have not the happiness of knowing God and His infinite loveliness, have the same crosses that we have; but they have not the same consolations. You say it is hard? No, it is easy, it is consoling, it is sweet; it is happiness. Only we must love while we suffer, and suffer while we love.

 

[Marie5890]

I agree with you, Marie.

Suffering for the purpose of glorifying God seems, to me, like a kind of suffering that only applies to a certain kind of person all or nearly all the time and to most Christians only some of the time. When given practical examples outside of that, it becomes more difficult to say the suffering is put in someone’s life according to the will of God and we can therefore find some positive in it.

As an example, think about a child with no parents. This child is abused by adults as he grows up and displays violent tendencies toward children his own age. The suffering endured by a child, who is one of the least of these, and the ripple effect of the suffering caused more directly by a child who is broken- this is the kind of suffering that anyone would just want to put a stop to. You try to teach forgiveness and help people heal, but this is the kind of suffering that a) happens all the time, b) involves sin, which suffering is so frequently wrapped up in, and c) anyone would just want to reduce or eliminate as much as possible, there’s nothing wrong with the desire to do so, and that doesn’t really imply that God is any less sovereign.

Orphanages are the kinds of places where Catholics have always been the most consistent and admirable bulwarks against this kind of suffering. I don’t feel like those orphanages are filled with Job scenarios, I know you don’t think so either Marie, and I seriously doubt that Catholic nuns approach orphaned children with that kind of mindset on a daily basis. These children need to understand that God puts all suffering in your life for a reason, and you need to learn to find the good in it…yeah, I don’t think that’s how you approach it with these types of kids.

When I think about extreme suffering I think about those who are victims of evil, and their families…

Right off the bat, Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg and all others who were being beheaded at that time and their families…

I have a hard time thinking of those families and telling them their their loved one, and the families, are suffering all that for some some divine purpose.

What I would be able to tell them is that, because of God’s grace, that the evil their loved ones faced, wont be in vain.

And yes, they were victims of evil, pure and simple
Just today, it’s being confirmed that Assad used chemical weapons on the Syrian people.
Because of God’s grace, all of that suffering wont be in vain. But in an of itself, it’s evil. Just evil

 

[happyme]

We are taught as Baha’is that we should not only be thankful for suffering/tests/trials but in fact joyous. For through suffering we learn Godly attributes, we are in fact slowly taught how to prepare for our spiritual life.

I think if one studies peoples lives, and even as has been mentioned here in posts, to have suffered in life, makes us more loving, more caring, more compassionate etc.

Tests are benefits from God, for which we should thank Him. Grief and sorrow do not come to us by chance, they are sent to us by the Divine Mercy for our own perfecting. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 50.)

Were it not for tests, pure gold could not be distinguished from the impure. Were it not for tests, the courageous could not be separated from the cowardly. Were it not for tests, the people of faithfulness could not be known from the disloyal. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Divine Art of Living, p. 87.)