Suffering in Purgatory - What form?

[braidwood]

My favourite wife is non-Catholic and like so many, struggles with the whole concept of Purgatory.
She quotes Jesus on the cross telling the thief that “this day” you shall be with me in paradise ie Jesus did not say Purgatory first for all your past mis-deeds.
This is only one of many bible passages she quotes against the idea of Purgatory.
I will keep praying for her.
Michael

 

[vz71]

My favourite wife is non-Catholic and like so many, struggles with the whole concept of Purgatory.
She quotes Jesus on the cross telling the thief that “this day” you shall be with me in paradise ie Jesus did not say Purgatory first for all your past mis-deeds.
This is only one of many bible passages she quotes against the idea of Purgatory.
I will keep praying for her.
Michael

Sounds like grasping at straws to me.
Of course, a fairly solid case can be made that the good thief made a perfect confession before God on that cross and would likely not have to undergo any type of purgatory.
And another solid argument could be made for purgatory (existing outside of time) could be experienced and serve its entire purpose within a single day.

In other words, the specification of a 24 hour period does not in any way indicate that this individual went straight to heaven, only that they would be there within the day.

But I fully understand that typical debate with the wife is difficult.
Perhaps prayer is best.

 

[mo3]

My favourite wife is non-Catholic and like so many, struggles with the whole concept of Purgatory.
She quotes Jesus on the cross telling the thief that “this day” you shall be with me in paradise ie Jesus did not say Purgatory first for all your past mis-deeds.
This is only one of many bible passages she quotes against the idea of Purgatory.
I will keep praying for her.
Michael

Jesus never used the term “paradise” to refer to Heaven. Paradise does not mean Heaven. It meant the bosom of Abraham, the place where those righteous souls from the OT were waiting for their savior.

How could the good thief go to Heaven that day if Jesus would not rise from the dead until 3 days later?

God bless.

 

[Pappajohn]

Why is it necessary to engage in pure anthropomorphism. God is…and that’s it. We will be judged…all else resides in the realm of FAITH.
It is totally human to quibble about the need for purification post judgement…after all being human we can only think in terms of linear time.If judged and saved why would an infinitely perfect God have use for further purification of his creations?..You see…Human, and therefore linear in thought.
You either live the mystery of faith or you don’t!

 

[minder_bender]

Thinking about purgatory??? Well! As it occurs after death, and in eternity, there can BE no time or duration asociated with it. Which brings me to the thought, that maybe it does not occur in eternity but is some place still governed by time and the body. I have come to the belief that reincarnation and purgatory, serve the same purpose depending on where you were born and brought up. The purpose being a CHOSEN path of purification. That those who die, CHOOSE, whether they believe they are "holy"enough or "pure"enough to go straight to heaven. Before you jump to the wrong conclusions, remember the Jesus died for ALL PUNISHMENT DUE TO SIN. So purgatory can’t be punishment. Suffering IS punishment. So purgatory CAN’T be suffering metered out by God only by OURSELVES! I can no see why Christ said to the criminal beside Him on the cross that He would be with Him in paradise that very day. Because that man CHOOSE to be with Christ that very day. The other man, obviously felt He was too evil to be accepted and therefore knew not Christ and CHOOSE to go straight to reincarnation. I say reincarnation because that was the common belief by the Jews and people of the time so, that’s where he went. All of this can only be conjecture, as you would have to be dead to really know the truth. But I believe Jesus is inviting all equally to Himself. The choice is ours. OUR FREE WILL!

 

[Marc_Anthony]

My concept of Purgatory has always been fairly simple. Purgatory and Hell are essentially the same thing. The difference is that those in Hell are TOO blinded by their pride to EVER repent and go to God. Those in Purgatory eventually will. The worse you’ve sinned, the more you are blinded by pride and the longer you suffer in Purgatory.

Does this make sense?

 

[vz71]

My concept of Purgatory has always been fairly simple. Purgatory and Hell are essentially the same thing. The difference is that those in Hell are TOO blinded by their pride to EVER repent and go to God. Those in Purgatory eventually will. The worse you’ve sinned, the more you are blinded by pride and the longer you suffer in Purgatory.

Does this make sense?

Yes, it does make sense. But there is an error in there.

Those in hell do not have hope…ever.
The concept of purgatory being essentially the same as hell with the difference being the blindness of those in it holds out the possibility of those in hell eventually becoming saved. We know this cannot be.
So purgatory must be something entirely different from hell.

 

[mo3]

Before you jump to the wrong conclusions, remember the Jesus died for ALL PUNISHMENT DUE TO SIN.

This is false. Jesus did not die for all “punishment” due to sin. He died for all sins, not the punishment due to sins.

Please provide chapter and verse to prove your point.

God bless.

 

[mo3]

If judged and saved why would an infinitely perfect God have use for further purification of his creations?..

I think this statement is human and linear in thought. Divine revelation has revealed more:

Rev 21:27, Nothing unclean shall enter it (Heaven).

Just because someone is judged and God determines that person will be saved, it does not mean that person is perfect.

Once dead who would be perfect enough to enter Heaven?

God bless.

 

[simple_soul]

My concept of Purgatory has always been fairly simple. Purgatory and Hell are essentially the same thing. The difference is that those in Hell are TOO blinded by their pride to EVER repent and go to God. Those in Purgatory eventually will. The worse you’ve sinned, the more you are blinded by pride and the longer you suffer in Purgatory.

Does this make sense?

*Dear MarcAnthony,
I believe it makes some sense all though I do not believe that the souls that are in Hell are blinded anymore. I do believe they will have full knowledge of how and why they ended up there.
I see it this way. God’s Love is described as being a flaming love of burning desire to completely surrender to and consume and to be completely consumed by Him so that He can purify us and complete us.
I have heard Hell described as being a sea of fire that burns but never consumes. So this makes me wonder if maybe the Fire of God’s Purifying Love is also the fire of Hell.
What more of a Hell could a soul be in than to be in God’s purifying Flame of Love and to never be consumed by Him. To never be Purified by Him. To never be completed by Him. Knowing the whole time that they are in this state because they sealed their fate by never learning to swallow their pride and surrender to God and His Will so that He could purify them. Now they are in Eternity. They now know and understand that they need to surrender to God’s Purifying Love but they can’t. Their pride sealed the door to their hearts at death for all Eternity.
Now for the souls that make it to purgatory, their pride never completely sealed the door to their heart. God’s Purifying Flame of Love will lick at those little cracks trying to get the door open. When the soul completely opens the door God’s Purifying Love will explode into the soul and purify it. I imagine much like the way fire in a closed room explodes when it gets oxygen from a door being opened.

Does this make sense?*

 

[boeck249]

Think about how the body fights illness .If you have an infection, you may have a fever to cure the infection. Poison food may cause vomiting. The point is the soul needs to be purified whatever sin that is causing it to be impure needs to be removed. different sins require different treatments.

Although the bible mentions a cleansing fire to burn of our impurities an earthly fire can not harm the soul.

 

[sonettegarbin]

Although the bible mentions a cleansing fire to burn of our impurities an earthly fire can not harm the soul.

Am I right to say that ingrained soul attitudes (knowingly and unknowingly) i.e. to name one - cultural prejudice will be purged?

 

[JIMBARRY1946]

Everything here is naturally speculative. We won’t know for sure until the end. I don’t see where physical fire would be necessary. The burning in our souls for the missing presence of God would be more than enough for Hell. (I know that is terribly awkward, but I think it gets across my idea.)

I have thought of purgatory as finding out the hurts we did to others by our actions or failures to act. Knowing how much we could have pleased our all loving God, but didn’t, by doing the right thing would be excruciating.

 

[minder_bender]

Has anyone read the story lately, of the Prodicule Son? Jesus said it was a parable about what our Father in heaven is like. It speaks of 2 sons, 1 being dutiful and the other wayward. It speaks that the wayward son goes off and does all manner of worldly things, (wine, women & song) possibly even worse, theft & murder. After realizing that the world couldn’t give him what he really wanted (true love), he made his own discision to return home (heaven). But his worries or guilt, had him believing he would not get a good reception from his father. He expected to be punished. The Truth was quite the opposite. Not only did his father forgive him/me but before hearing any words of repentence, raced down the road to him/me with arms out stretched. It was the other son (the ‘good’ son) who **condemned **his brother. NOT his father. Think about it. Could the dutiful son represent all that is expected of the law and the world & the devil? while the wayward son is the real US/me/you?. The son who saw the grass greener on the other side only to realize that home is where his heart is, and returned to an awaiting feast? How does purgartory fit with this parable? Unless purgatory (& hell) are served here on earth? and the Holy Spirit who is sent to be our comforter & guide, is the “flame” that overtime (the reason for time by the way) cleanses us so we remember the way home. (possibly a tick for the idea of reincarnation, of which the Jews & early church believed before the “latter Church” decided it wasn’t true. Probably because it sounded too buddist/hindu/muslam. I don’t actually know why? possibly another thread??)

 

[minder_bender]

This is false. Jesus did not die for all “punishment” due to sin. He died for all sins, not the punishment due to sins.

Please provide chapter and verse to prove your point.

God bless.

It took me a while because I rote learned this when I was a kid, so your challenge made me think whether I had just picked it up somewhere or where I had indeed learnt it as truth. Here are my references: The official Vatican Cathecism. “The profession of Faith"section 2. States: 613: Jesus shed His blood “for the forgiveness of sins”. forgiveness means pardon via W dictionary. 614 Jesus died for " the reparation for our disobedience " (reparation: restoration to good condition, making amends, making up for wrong doing). 615: “make many to be accounted righteous” (righteous: good/ excellent/ satisfying which also means settlement of debt and discharge of obligation). Further down it states “He shall bare their iniquities” (lack of righteousness) and He atoned (satisfaction given for wrong doing/making amends) for our faults and *made satisfaction * (settlement of debt/ discharge of obligation) for our sins to the Father” and further “He will bare our iniquities so we will be accounted righteous” . If this doesn’t mean that Christ die for the punishment due to sin then please enlighten me!

 

[mo3]

“The profession of Faith” section 2. States: 613: Jesus shed His blood “for the forgiveness of sins”. forgiveness means pardon via W dictionary. 614 Jesus died for " the reparation for our disobedience " (reparation: restoration to good condition, making amends, making up for wrong doing). 615: “make many to be accounted righteous” (righteous: good/ excellent/ satisfying which also means settlement of debt and discharge of obligation). Further down it states “He shall bare their iniquities” (lack of righteousness) and He atoned (satisfaction given for wrong doing/making amends) for our faults and *made satisfaction * (settlement of debt/ discharge of obligation) for our sins to the Father" and further “He will bare our iniquities so we will be accounted righteous” .

There is nothing in these quotes from the Catechism that discusses the punishment due to sins. Please see the following:

CCC: 1472. To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand, every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth or after death in the state called purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin.

CCC: 1473. The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains.
We incur not just guilt, but liability for punishment when we sin: “I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless” (Is. 13:11). Judgment pertains even to the smallest sins: “For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil” (Eccl. 12:14).

Scripture says death entered the world through original sin (Gen. 3:22-24, Rom. 5:12). When we first come to God we are forgiven, and when we sin later we are able to be forgiven, yet that does not free us from the penalty of physical death. Even the forgiven die; a penalty remains after our sins are forgiven. This is a temporal penalty since physical death is temporary and we will be resurrected (Dan. 12:2).

An excellent biblical illustration of this principle is given in Proverbs 16:6, which states: “By loving kindness and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the Lord a man avoids evil” (cf. Lev. 6:1-7; Num. 5:5-8). Here we are told that a person makes temporal atonement (though never eternal atonement, which only Christ is capable of doing) for his sins through acts of loving kindness and faithfulness.

God bless.

 

[tonyrey]

We know that there are different kinds of pain; mental suffering (loss of a loved one, guilt for a harmful deed) can be as painful as physical suffering. And since it is our souls which will be purified and reconciled with God, it would make sense to me that the process would be of a similar nature.

We know that there are different kinds of pain; mental suffering (loss of a loved one, guilt for a harmful deed) can be as painful as physical suffering. And since it is our souls which will be purified and reconciled with God, it would make sense to me that the process would be of a similar nature.

I agree. We must be purified by the shame and anguish we feel when we come face to face with those who have suffered and died because of our selfishness, carelessness and neglect. If that experience leaves us unmoved we are on the high road to hell…

 

[20purple02]

I appreciate the answers to my question on purgatory. It does not make sense to me that God would send Jesus to die, for all sins, and then require time in purgatory. If our sins are forgiven then what purpose does purgatory serve?

I noticed that a poster referred to a priest as “holy”. I know there is a scripture that states “there is none holy but Jesus”. I apologize for not knowing the exact scripture and it’s reference. Do Catholics believe that someone else is capable of living a human life without sin?

I am so excited to ask questions without fear of rudeness or insult. I enjoy reading the many responses to some of my own questions.

Thank you so much.

Gail

 

[tonyrey]

I appreciate the answers to my question on purgatory. It does not make sense to me that God would send Jesus to die, for all sins, and then require time in purgatory. If our sins are forgiven then what purpose does purgatory serve?

Our sins are forgiven but we still have to make amends for the suffering we have caused. The Son of God chose to become a man so that we can follow His example. In Purgatory we cannot undo the wrongs of the past but like Him we can bring good out of evil with the power of love. We can express our sorrow, console and give joy to those we have wronged. Only then can we become perfect and share His life in heaven.

 

[fhansen]

I appreciate the answers to my question on purgatory. It does not make sense to me that God would send Jesus to die, for all sins, and then require time in purgatory. If our sins are forgiven then what purpose does purgatory serve?

I noticed that a poster referred to a priest as “holy”. I know there is a scripture that states “there is none holy but Jesus”. I apologize for not knowing the exact scripture and it’s reference. Do Catholics believe that someone else is capable of living a human life without sin?

I am so excited to ask questions without fear of rudeness or insult. I enjoy reading the many responses to some of my own questions.

Thank you so much.

Gail

You may be thinking of Luke 18:18-20 where Jesus is speaking to the rich young man,
A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'

The only other verses I can think of that are close say the opposite of what you’re saying. In Matt 5:48 Jesus says:
“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

And 1Peter 1:15-16 where Peter writes:
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

Also, in Matt 5, Jesus tells us:
“For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven

Of course we can be sinless. Otherwise God would be guilty of commanding man to obey laws he’s completely incapable of obeying-and them holding him accountable anyway! The difference between the Old and New Covenant is not that we no longer have to obey in the New-the difference is in *how *obedience is possible. In the Old Covenant we’re given commandments, telling us how we must live in terms of morality, while we’re still exiled from God. Any obedience to the commandments under those conditions can only come from our own efforts-our own righteousness.

In the New Covenant, the rift between man and God is healed by the Atonement. Man can now find his way back to God, if he’s willing, if we humble ourselves, our righteousness coming not from ourselves, but from Him. Our sins are forgiven and we must “Go, and sin no more”. And God helps us in this endeavor-this process-the Potter molding us-“writing His laws on our hearts and in our minds”, according to Jer 31, which Heb 8 & 10 quote.

The New Covenant is about Grace, the grace it takes for us to be ‘holy as He is holy’, ‘perfect as he is perfect’. And our perfection lies simply in the fulfillment of the greatest commandment: To love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself.

In Spe Salvi, Pope Benedict put it this way:
**Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope.
**
**“With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.” **Mark 10:27