Suffering, Weakness, and Perfect Happiness

[Psychotheosophy]

How does suffering and weakness lead to Perfect Happiness?

 

[ricmat]

How does suffering and weakness lead to Perfect Happiness?

I’m not a professional in these matters, but here are some things that occur to me.

I’m assuming that by Perfect Happiness you mean Heaven and the Beatific Vision.

In order to be in Heaven, we must have no attachment to material things, we must “need” only God. So if one is very attached to material things, it may be impossible to get to Heaven (although that’s one of the reasons Purgatory exists). If we have disordered material desires and try to rid ourselves of them, it is painful, and we suffer.

Also, if we offer up our suffering and join it with Christ’s passion - we can remit some time that we might otherwise spend in purgatory.

If we think of ourselves as strong (opposite of weak), this usually entails some element of pride. Pride is the archenemy of God and the Devil’s best weapon against us. We must be weak in the sense of obeying God and realize our dependence on him. And not insist that we are so great that we can overcome evil by ourselves.

IMHO.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I’m not a professional in these matters, but here are some things that occur to me.

I’m assuming that by Perfect Happiness you mean Heaven and the Beatific Vision.

In order to be in Heaven, we must have no attachment to material things, we must “need” only God. So if one is very attached to material things, it may be impossible to get to Heaven (although that’s one of the reasons Purgatory exists). If we have disordered material desires and try to rid ourselves of them, it is painful, and we suffer.

Also, if we offer up our suffering and join it with Christ’s passion - we can remit some time that we might otherwise spend in purgatory.

If we think of ourselves as strong (opposite of weak), this usually entails some element of pride. Pride is the archenemy of God and the Devil’s best weapon against us. We must be weak in the sense of obeying God and realize our dependence on him. And not insist that we are so great that we can overcome evil by ourselves.

IMHO.

I mean Perfect Happiness is God,
When united to God, a person experiences Perfect Happiness (heaven).

Some people say that “perfect” happiness is
Simply being happy enough.
Do these people need God, to suffer, or be humble?

 

[ricmat]

I mean Perfect Happiness is God,
When united to God, a person experiences Perfect Happiness (heaven).

Some people say that “perfect” happiness is
Simply being happy enough.
Do these people need God,

yes.

to suffer,

In order to be with God, we must give up some other things. For most people this leads to some sort of suffering.

or be humble?

You cannot be with God and somehow miss the point that God is God and you are not God. Or that we are created beings, blessed with unearned gifts (such as life), from God. How could you be in the presence of God, and not be humble? How can you come close to God without being humble?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

How does suffering and weakness lead to Perfect Happiness?

They don’t. Suffering is an evil. It becomes a means of good, not by being suffering, but by being given a Christian meaning & content: by being elevated beyond itself. As a material-physical event, ther is nothing whatever to be said for a broken leg - broken limbs don’t sanctify; they disable, & they hurt; which are evils, things that are not “very good”. So something beyond the material-physical injury has to “renew” the injury, to give it a new meaning: to adopt it into the “sacramental” order. That is what makes it suffering that has a Christian meaning. But mere pain as such is not good, desirable, healthy or any such thing. If He works through it - it can be transfigured.​

 

[KyivAndrew]

There is no such thing as Perfect Happiness on Earth. One does not strive for such an unattainable goal on this Fallen World.

Malcolm Muggeridge once commented on the peculiarity of the U.S.A. in having the “pursuit of happiness” enshrined as a right in its founding documents.

As Gottle said, suffering can be transfigured.

 

[4Horsemen]

How does suffering and weakness lead to Perfect Happiness?

PERFECT happiness is union with God. Some of the greatest saints considered suffering a joy in the sense that they joined their pains with that of the Master, their Beloved Jesus. If they found themselves without something to suffer (momentarily in any case), they made certain that they took upon themselves various forms of suffering, which we, moderns, consider eccentric or even abnormal. Nowadays, flagellation seems bizarre along with other rituals like public penance. Sackcloth and ashes were popular in the Old Testament.

I think what God expects of us is to offer what He gives us daily–sufferings and joys, along with our prayers, sacrifices, and good works. We can do this with a daily “Morning Offering.” They are meritorious in themselves. Those who have to bear great “suffering and weakness” can unite their crosses with Our Lord’s cross and, thereby, find that “Perfect Happiness” even in the midst of pain.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

yes.

In order to be with God, we must give up some other things. For most people this leads to some sort of suffering.

You cannot be with God and somehow miss the point that God is God and you are not God. Or that we are created beings, blessed with unearned gifts (such as life), from God. How could you be in the presence of God, and not be humble? How can you come close to God without being humble?

There are people who do not believe in God,
Who see themselves as masters of their own destiny,
And consider themselves as very happy.

They don’t. Suffering is an evil. It becomes a means of good, not by being suffering, but by being given a Christian meaning & content: by being elevated beyond itself. As a material-physical event, ther is nothing whatever to be said for a broken leg - broken limbs don’t sanctify; they disable, & they hurt; which are evils, things that are not “very good”. So something beyond the material-physical injury has to “renew” the injury, to give it a new meaning: to adopt it into the “sacramental” order. That is what makes it suffering that has a Christian meaning. But mere pain as such is not good, desirable, healthy or any such thing. If He works through it - it can be transfigured.​

How do you know suffering is transfigured and not replaced?

There is no such thing as Perfect Happiness on Earth. One does not strive for such an unattainable goal on this Fallen World.

Malcolm Muggeridge once commented on the peculiarity of the U.S.A. in having the “pursuit of happiness” enshrined as a right in its founding documents.

As Gottle said, suffering can be transfigured.

If we can unite our sufferings to the cross of Jesus,
Why can the perfection of Happiness never be completed in this life?

PERFECT happiness is union with God. Some of the greatest saints considered suffering a joy in the sense that they joined their pains with that of the Master, their Beloved Jesus. If they found themselves without something to suffer (momentarily in any case), they made certain that they took upon themselves various forms of suffering, which we, moderns, consider eccentric or even abnormal. Nowadays, flagellation seems bizarre along with other rituals like public penance. Sackcloth and ashes were popular in the Old Testament.

I think what God expects of us is to offer what He gives us daily–sufferings and joys, along with our prayers, sacrifices, and good works. We can do this with a daily “Morning Offering.” They are meritorious in themselves. Those who have to bear great “suffering and weakness” can unite their crosses with Our Lord’s cross and, thereby, find that “Perfect Happiness” even in the midst of pain.

There is a psychological symptom related to mental illness,
Called “Self-injurious Behavior” (SIB)
Where the individual longs to inflict pain or injury
On his or her body,
Resulting in the relief of anxiety,
And often an adrenaline rush.

Here, SIB can be very meaningful to this individual.

How is Self-injurious Behavior different from Penance?

 

[Psychotheosophy]

There are people who do not believe in God,
Who see themselves as masters of their own destiny,
And consider themselves as very happy.

Because they also accept that Perfect Happiness is not possible.
Yet they naturally seek Perfect Happiness.
Which they have received not by their own doing.

Here lies their contradiction?

How do you know suffering is transfigured and not replaced?

Because evil is a diminution of good?

If we can unite our sufferings to the cross of Jesus,
Why can the perfection of Happiness never be completed in this life?

Because we continue to sin until death?

There is a psychological symptom related to mental illness,
Called “Self-injurious Behavior” (SIB)
Where the individual longs to inflict pain or injury
On his or her body,
Resulting in the relief of anxiety,
And often an adrenaline rush.

Here, SIB can be very meaningful to this individual.

How is Self-injurious Behavior different from Penance?

Because a self-injurious act
Concludes with often intense feelings of guilt and shame,
Which is far from Perfect Happiness?

 

[4Horsemen]

There is a psychological symptom related to mental illness,
Called “Self-injurious Behavior” (SIB)
Where the individual longs to inflict pain or injury
On his or her body,
Resulting in the relief of anxiety,
And often an adrenaline rush.

Here, SIB can be very meaningful to this individual.

How is Self-injurious Behavior different from Penance?

True, that some people inflict suffering (punishment?) on themselves for psychological reasons, not always related to religious. Think about teens who “cut” their bodies to relieve anxiety or those who attempt to have a form of control by starving themselves (anorexic behavior). In religion, there are those who attempt to reach a state of mysticism by overdoing fasting for example. However, flagellation was considered a normal form of penace in earlier centuries. I read of saints who practiced it with full accord from their spiritual directors. Also, there are those who actually go through crucifixions on Good Friday for spiritual reasons (maybe some for show). I don’t think they have any psychological abnormality. Whatever the reasons for extreme mortification, if it produces a feeling of pride, that is a sign it was from the evil one, as St. Teresa of Avila confirms.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

It sounds like,
Detachment from all things
Except Perfect Happiness (God),
Is the Way to Perfect Happiness?

Should a man detach from his wife?

 

[4Horsemen]

It sounds like,
Detachment from all things
Except Perfect Happiness (God),
Is the Way to Perfect Happiness?

Should a man detach from his wife?

By detachment is meant that all we have, all we do, all we are. . . all of our hopes and desires are submitted to God according to His will which we discern though continuous prayer. “Pray unceasingly,” as Scripture reads. IOW, we can enjoy everything in the abundance of life as long as no sin is involved, including husbands and wives enjoying each other. Sounds great!

 

[Psychotheosophy]

By detachment is meant that all we have, all we do, all we are. . . all of our hopes and desires are submitted to God according to His will which we discern though continuous prayer. “Pray unceasingly,” as Scripture reads. IOW, we can enjoy everything in the abundance of life as long as no sin is involved, including husbands and wives enjoying each other. Sounds great!

Since through baptism,
We become members of the Mystical Body of Christ,
We become configured to Christ.
The same one Christ who suffered, died, and was resurrected.

So,
Why do some people,
Who have been baptized,
Enjoy less “abundance of life?”

 

[4Horsemen]

Since through baptism,
We become members of the Mystical Body of Christ,
We become configured to Christ.
The same one Christ who suffered, died, and was resurrected.

So,
Why do some people,
Who have been baptized,
Enjoy less “abundance of life?”

I guess that, first of all, the phrase “abundance of life” needs to be defined. I don’t think of “abundance of life” merely as material satisfaction–although having material things certainly makes for a certain element of content. As everyone knows, some of the richest people are the least happy even to the point of commiting suicide. By the phrase in question is meant, for the Christian, having Christ: “Seek ye first the Kingdom of God; then all these things shall be given unto you.” When Christian missionaries converted tribal/indigenous people, they first gave them the bare necessities like food and clean water and clothing before teaching them about the “bread of life.”

There has always been a state of inequality (from material provisions to intelligence to beauty to spiritual gifts. . .) on this earth, even when it comes to those who profess Christianity. Some would consider that unfair, maybe even predestination. There is an element of truth to that. There is no perfection on this earth, no true justice and equality. I believe that those who have suffered more so than others will be rewarded accordingly in Heaven where there exists perfect justice and righteousness. God has a different path for each of us and different crosses to bear.

It saddens and angers me when I hear about suffering in this world, especially when the victim is an innocent child. I question God all the time. Where was this or that child’s guardian angel when the “demon” murderer and rapist cut short their lives? This is a mystery that I don’t think can ever be understood fully on this earth. I just put my trust in God’s Mercy and pray for children especially, included those scheduled to be aborted.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I guess that, first of all, the phrase “abundance of life” needs to be defined. I don’t think of “abundance of life” merely as material satisfaction–although having material things certainly makes for a certain element of content. As everyone knows, some of the richest people are the least happy even to the point of commiting suicide. By the phrase in question is meant, for the Christian, having Christ: “Seek ye first the Kingdom of God; then all these things shall be given unto you.” When Christian missionaries converted tribal/indigenous people, they first gave them the bare necessities like food and clean water and clothing before teaching them about the “bread of life.”

So,
Seeking the Kingdom of God,
Correlates with,
Increasing material wealth?
Sinning does not?

I thought I once read that this is similar to Jewish spirituality.
Is it?

There has always been a state of inequality (from material provisions to intelligence to beauty to spiritual gifts. . .) on this earth, even when it comes to those who profess Christianity. Some would consider that unfair, maybe even predestination. There is an element of truth to that. There is no perfection on this earth, no true justice and equality. I believe that those who have suffered more so than others will be rewarded accordingly in Heaven where there exists perfect justice and righteousness. God has a different path for each of us and different crosses to bear.

From a Catholic perspective…

Mary is the highest creature ever created,
So there is inequality in heaven.
Do you think this is unfair also?

It saddens and angers me when I hear about suffering in this world, especially when the victim is an innocent child. I question God all the time. Where was this or that child’s guardian angel when the “demon” murderer and rapist cut short their lives? This is a mystery that I don’t think can ever be understood fully on this earth. I just put my trust in God’s Mercy and pray for children especially, included those scheduled to be aborted.

So it must also sadden and anger you,
When someone is falsely accused of such a crime.

But being configured to Christ,
It should not be unusual for any Christian,
To be falsely accused.

(Though it may be more intense than wearing sackcloths or hairshirts.)

It saddens and angers me when I hear about suffering in this world, especially when the victim is an innocent child. I question God all the time. Where was this or that child’s guardian angel when the “demon” murderer and rapist cut short their lives? This is a mystery that I don’t think can ever be understood fully on this earth. I just put my trust in God’s Mercy and pray for children especially, included those scheduled to be aborted.

So you are angry at God all the time?

 

[4Horsemen]

So,

Seeking the Kingdom of God,
Correlates with,
Increasing material wealth?
Sinning does not?

And how do you get that from my post? I am angry with evil humans who hurt children and others; I don’t blame God. I said I put my trust in Him. Besides, He promised that good will come out of evil. Do you believe that?

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Huh? Excuse me, Psychotheosophy, but how did you come up with that idea from my post? I believe that people need the basics of life, not “increasing material wealth” (to the point that is obscene) which may lead to NOT seeking the Kingdom of God. Sinning doesn’t necessarily correlate with material wealth. There are saints from every walk of life including kings and queens.

Posts actually…

…we can enjoy everything in the abundance of life as long as no sin is involved…

…I don’t think of “abundance of life” merely as material satisfaction…

…“Seek ye first the Kingdom of God; then all these things shall be given unto you.” When Christian missionaries converted tribal/indigenous people, they first gave them the bare necessities like food and clean water and clothing before teaching them about the “bread of life.”…

I’m trying to clarify the relationship between sinning (vs. seeking the Kingdom of God) and material satisfaction when you say,

“we can enjoy everything in the abundance of life (which you are including material satisfaction) as long as no sin is involved”

As it is related to detachment.

And how do you get that from my post? I am angry with evil humans who hurt children and others; I don’t blame God. I said I put my trust in Him. Besides, He promised that good will come out of evil. Do you believe that?

I was trying to clarify what you meant by,
“I question God all the time”

And how do you get that from my post? I am angry with evil humans who hurt children and others; I don’t blame God. I said I put my trust in Him. Besides, He promised that good will come out of evil. Do you believe that?

The phrase,
“good will come out of evil”
Can be taken different ways.
(Such as ends justifying the means)

What do you mean by this phrase?

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I’m trying to clarify the relationship between sinning (vs. seeking the Kingdom of God) and material satisfaction when you say,

“we can enjoy everything in the abundance of life (which you are including material satisfaction) as long as no sin is involved”

As it is related to detachment.

How about this…

In Jesus we find the perfect example of detachment and charity.
As God,
He freely detached from all material satisfaction,
He freely accepted suffering and weakness,
To free us completely from the effects of original sin,
Needing only himself.

When we,
By God’s grace,
Configured to Christ,

Freely practice virtues,
(As are summed in charity),
Wounds of our sin are healed.

We often complain,
About the paradox of the cross,
“How can suffering and weakness be a way to Perfect Happiness?”

But we often forget,
About the paradox of sin,
“How can this happiness possibly end in unhappiness?”

The logical conclusion:
Detach from the temporal.
Seek the Perfect.

 

[4Horsemen]

How about this…

In Jesus we find the perfect example of detachment and charity.
As God,
He freely detached from all material satisfaction,
He freely accepted suffering and weakness,
To free us completely from the effects of original sin,
Needing only himself.

When we,
By God’s grace,
Configured to Christ,

Freely practice virtues,
(As are summed in charity),
Wounds of our sin are healed.

We often complain,
About the paradox of the cross,
“How can suffering and weakness be a way to Perfect Happiness?”

But we often forget,
About the paradox of sin,
“How can this happiness possibly end in unhappiness?”

The logical conclusion:
Detach from the temporal.
Seek the Perfect.

Truth be told, Psychotheosophy, I couldn’t say it more clearly than that. I imagine that you were attempting to cause me to clarify my own thinking. Putting something into words does help clarify ideas when the words fall into the right places.

I colored your statement about Jesus being “freely detached from all material satisfaction.” Jesus is the Teacher, the Master, the Beloved.

To be detached doesn’t necessarily mean one has to give up all material possessions but to be ready to at any given time. Sometimes we think we’re detached from material things, then God presents us with a surprise and actually removes something or someone from our lives or deprives us of something we enjoyed or depended on. Then we are forced to learn detachment. It is better, IMHO, to “detach” along the way of life, as we do in Lent, by sacrificing or giving up various pleasures for the sake of the Kingdom. We can join with Jesus’ GREAT SACRIFICE making us, little by little, more profitable servants and always ready for God’s great adventures.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

They don’t. Suffering is an evil. It becomes a means of good, not by being suffering, but by being given a Christian meaning & content: by being elevated beyond itself. As a material-physical event, ther is nothing whatever to be said for a broken leg - broken limbs don’t sanctify; they disable, & they hurt; which are evils, things that are not “very good”. So something beyond the material-physical injury has to “renew” the injury, to give it a new meaning: to adopt it into the “sacramental” order. That is what makes it suffering that has a Christian meaning. But mere pain as such is not good, desirable, healthy or any such thing. If He works through it - it can be transfigured.​

I’m glad someone said this. I was beginning to think we are supposed to look for pain and suffering. At least the Church can give it meaning.