suffering????

[taylor007]

i am only 19and a brand new member ,so pardon me if this sounds childish.

I cannot understand why bad things happen to good people. I have heard all the explanations:

1. God has a hidden purpose, or is making use of knowledge we don’t have.
2. Suffering itself will turn out to be good for us.
3. God’s purpose is in the grand design of the Universe (which is good and beautiful), not in the life of the individual.
4. Suffering teaches something, either to us or to those who see us suffer.
5. Suffering is a test.
6. Death leads us and our loved ones to a better place.
7. Some suffering is caused by the workings of natural law. There is no moral judgment involved–natural law is blind, and God does not interfere with it. God does not intervene to save good people from earthquake or disease, and does not send these misfortunes to punish the wicked.
   so my question is- doesnt god have all the knowledge and wisdom so that he can execute his plans in such a way that it doesnt hurt us?

 

[Numinous]

so my question is- doesnt god have all the knowledge and wisdom so that he can execute his plans in such a way that it doesnt hurt us?

First of all, never apologize for your youth. Your question is searching and honest and does not seem childish to me.

I quoted your direct question above, because it is that point upon which your entire post hangs. Why does God not simply order the universe in such a way as to make sure we do not get hurt (suffer)?

Good question. There are many explanations, as you have listed them, but the most satisfying one for me is this: free will. If God simply took control and made sure nothing bad happens, he would be effectively taking away our free will. God does not do bad things to us (that is an impossibility); instead, we do bad things to ourselves through our sometimes ignorant, sometimes foolish, sometimes downright evil choices. It was our ability to choose which brought sin into the world in the first place.

Perhaps this is begging the question, assuming that free will is in an of itself a good thing. It is. If we did not have free will, then our lives would be a joke. Everything we do would be a joke. It would all be meaningless. But God created us that we might love him and enjoy him forever–that we would choose to do so. Giving us our spiritual autonomy is part of his goodness.

If we have the choice to love and obey God, we must, therefore, logically also have the choice to not love and obey him, i.e., choose to do evil. Many choose to not follow and obey God, and thus their evil choices cause very real suffering in the world–suffering which God cannot simply stop without violating our free will, the greater good.

Having said that, remember that God is the Sovereign of History, and even suffering caused by evil can be used in the service of the implementation of his will.

The other type of suffering–natural evil, as the philosophers call it–is a completely different subject. For example, a tornado destroying your house is not evil, per se, but we perceive it as evil in relation to our desire for our house not to have been destroyed.

 

[Trishie]

1. Death leads us and our loved ones to a better place.

Yes it often does, but people die because they have human bodies that are going to die sooner or later. They have illnesses because of something physical, it’s genetic, it’s due to lifestyle and diet, or it’s due to some other natural causes. Or it’s due to someone’s mistake, or someone’s callousness…there is always some natural cause. Yes, they face the judgement which depends on how innocent they are and whether they have lived in kindness or not…but to say “it’s God’s will” attributes a direct cause to God when it is actually failure in some way of the human body.

1. Suffering itself will turn out to be good for us.
   Suffering happens because either an occurrence causes pain and disruption to our mind or body or both. It may be because of illness, because of accident, because of loss of someone in our life…causes that simply happen or are consequence of someone else’s choice and/or ours. It can happens because of our generosity or our selfishness or others’s selfishness. It happens because we have human nervous systems that can cause distortion or pain, and because we have brains that are happy with some circumstances and not others. To blame God for our pain when it has human causes of some sort or other is not realistic.

Pain happens, and we deal with it with faith and God’s grace, or not. Either way we deal with it isn’t God’s fault. We can make it a positive thing and offer it to God or we can make it a negative thing. We can make it into something mystical and haloed, but it is merely pain and only God’s action can make it holy…it is in our hands, merely human.

When people say, it’s God’s will or God sent me this punishment or suffering, that’s not what it is. It is suffering because of how we as humans react to certain things or what occurs in the natural world.

God can make things holy…but things happen as consequence to the fact that our bodies and minds have fragilities, and sometimes because we are foolish, and sometimes because people are cruel.

Sometimes bad things happen because of the sun and the wind and the sea and the tides…this is not an act of God but acts of the physical universe.

Yes, we are children of God. God loves us. We can offer our sufferings and our joys our emotional agonies and our dying to God. They are ours and they are inevitable to our nature and our choices. They mean something because God makes them mean something, but He does not cause them.

Suffering and death is human. God does not will them but He is willing to divinize them if we invite and allow Him.
The mistake is that people blame God for things that are merely part of the nature of creation and ourselves.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

From Mystical City of God themostholyrosary.com/mystical-city.htm
In Defense of The City of God Mystica Civitate Dei: dailycatholic.org/issue/05Jun/jun10tim.htm - to summarize the research of three priests on the official decision of the Holy Roman Catholic Church regarding The Mystical City of God by Venerable Mary of Jesus of Agreda and to ascertain thereby whether it is permitted for anyone of any authority whatsoever to forbid the reading of this extraordinary book.

1. (Excerpt) On account of the merits of Christ, our Savior, the graces and gifts were prearranged, and also original justice, if they would only preserve it. The fall of Adam was foreseen and in him that of all others, except of the Queen, who did not enter into this decree. As a remedy was it ordained, that the most holy humanity should be capable of suffering. The predestined were chosen by free grace, and the foreknown were reprobated with exact justice. All that was convenient and necessary for the conservation of the human race and for obtaining the end of the Redemption and the Predestination, was preordained, without interfering with the free will of men; for such ordainment was more conformable to God’s nature and to divine equity. There was no injustice done to them, for if with their free will they could sin, so also could they abstain from sin by means of grace and the light of reason. God violated the right of no one, since He forsook no one nor denied to any one that which is necessary. Since his law is written in the hearts of men, nobody is excused for not knowing and loving Him as the highest Good of all creation.

 

[taylor007]

First of all, never apologize for your youth. Your question is searching and honest and does not seem childish to me.

I quoted your direct question above, because it is that point upon which your entire post hangs. Why does God not simply order the universe in such a way as to make sure we do not get hurt (suffer)?

Good question. There are many explanations, as you have listed them, but the most satisfying one for me is this: free will. If God simply took control and made sure nothing bad happens, he would be effectively taking away our free will. God does not do bad things to us (that is an impossibility); instead, we do bad things to ourselves through our sometimes ignorant, sometimes foolish, sometimes downright evil choices. It was our ability to choose which brought sin into the world in the first place.

Perhaps this is begging the question, assuming that free will is in an of itself a good thing. It is. If we did not have free will, then our lives would be a joke. Everything we do would be a joke. It would all be meaningless. But God created us that we might love him and enjoy him forever–that we would choose to do so. Giving us our spiritual autonomy is part of his goodness.

If we have the choice to love and obey God, we must, therefore, logically also have the choice to not love and obey him, i.e., choose to do evil. Many choose to not follow and obey God, and thus their evil choices cause very real suffering in the world–suffering which God cannot simply stop without violating our free will, the greater good.

Having said that, remember that God is the Sovereign of History, and even suffering caused by evil can be used in the service of the implementation of his will.

The other type of suffering–natural evil, as the philosophers call it–is a completely different subject. For example, a tornado destroying your house is not evil, per se, but we perceive it as evil in relation to our desire for our house not to have been destroyed.

may be i should have made my question easier.my mom died of a rare cancer 2 yrs ago.now,wud u classify that under ‘natural evil’?
1.) if it is,why doesnt god interfere with it ?he is a lovin father, isnt he ?now ,my earthly father wud do his best to protect me from whatever he can .god’s love bein far greater ,why doesnt he interfere with natural evils?
2.)now if it isnt natural evil,but was a device of god so that i would learn frm it,there is no free will involved.i didnt ask for or choose the suffering but it was given by god

 

[taylor007]

1. Death leads us and our loved ones to a better place.

Yes it often does, but people die because they have human bodies that are going to die sooner or later. They have illnesses because of something physical, it’s genetic, it’s due to lifestyle and diet, or it’s due to some other natural causes. Or it’s due to someone’s mistake, or someone’s callousness…there is always some natural cause. Yes, they face the judgement which depends on how innocent they are and whether they have lived in kindness or not…but to say “it’s God’s will” attributes a direct cause to God when it is actually failure in some way of the human body.

1. Suffering itself will turn out to be good for us.

Suffering happens because either an occurrence causes pain and disruption to our mind or body or both. It may be because of illness, because of accident, because of loss of someone in our life…causes that simply happen or are consequence of someone else’s choice and/or ours. It can happens because of our generosity or our selfishness or others’s selfishness. It happens because we have human nervous systems that can cause distortion or pain, and because we have brains that are happy with some circumstances and not others. To blame God for our pain when it has human causes of some sort or other is not realistic.

Pain happens, and we deal with it with faith and God’s grace, or not. Either way we deal with it isn’t God’s fault. We can make it a positive thing and offer it to God or we can make it a negative thing. We can make it into something mystical and haloed, but it is merely pain and only God’s action can make it holy…it is in our hands, merely human.

When people say, it’s God’s will or God sent me this punishment or suffering, that’s not what it is. It is suffering because of how we as humans react to certain things or what occurs in the natural world.

God can make things holy…but things happen as consequence to the fact that our bodies and minds have fragilities, and sometimes because we are foolish, and sometimes because people are cruel.

Sometimes bad things happen because of the sun and the wind and the sea and the tides…this is not an act of God but acts of the physical universe.

Yes, we are children of God. God loves us. We can offer our sufferings and our joys our emotional agonies and our dying to God. They are ours and they are inevitable to our nature and our choices. They mean something because God makes them mean something, but He does not cause them.

Suffering and death is human. God does not will them but He is willing to divinize them if we invite and allow Him.
The mistake is that people blame God for things that are merely part of the nature of creation and ourselves.

i thank you for one statement,that may be somethings are suffering just becoz we take them as suffering.for example what is suffering for bill gates might be luxury for me.but i request u to clarify one point ’ why doesnt god interfere against acts of physical universe.as u rightly pointed out,we are his children and he loves us.

 

[Numinous]

may be i should have made my question easier.my mom died of a rare cancer 2 yrs ago.now,wud u classify that under ‘natural evil’?
1.) if it is,why doesnt god interfere with it ?he is a lovin father, isnt he ?now ,my earthly father wud do his best to protect me from whatever he can .god’s love bein far greater ,why doesnt he interfere with natural evils?

First of all, let me tell you that I am not callous to your pain. I, too, have had a life of pain and suffering, but I take comfort in knowing that, though evil and death are very real in this reality, it has been conquered by Christ. Now, since death is a part of the created order, all things and people will die. Everyone suffers. These are the consequences of sin (of course, I am not saying your mother’s sin caused her cancer!! of course I’m not saying that!): death and suffering. Whenever I am going through a bad time, I always repeat to myself, “Is the servant greater than his master? Christ suffered in his passion and on the cross; what a privilege (I know it sounds strange!) that I can share in Christ’s suffering.” This is the order of the universe, and the wonderful part of it is that God can use evil and suffering and turn it to good.

2.)now if it isnt natural evil,but was a device of god so that i would learn frm it,there is no free will involved.i didnt ask for or choose the suffering but it was given by god

This is incomprehensible to me.

 

[KephasAugustine]

why doesnt god interfere against acts of physical universe.as u rightly pointed out,we are his children and he loves us.

Why would a loving God let us get hurt? My dad loves me very much, and nobody who knows us could ever deny that. He protects me from harm, and still teaches me lessons. But when I was a kid, I inevitably got hurt. Sometimes my dad would let me get hurt, because he knew that it wouldn’t kill me, and would teach me a lesson. For instance, he knew that a skinned knee would teach me to be more careful while climbing the tree in the back yard. He knew that some bruises would teach me to watch where I was going in the future. It was by these injuries that I learned extremely valuable lessons at a very young age.
I was also born with a bad birth defect, one that caused me much pain and humiliation as a child. To this day I struggle with it, but remember the words of my loving mother: “you should consider yourself lucky that Jesus has trusted you with such a big part of His cross!”

God gave everyone free will, as someone before me has rightly pointed out. And with this free will, people will hurt others and get hurt by others. The pain we experience makes us stronger, makes us smarter; nurtures virtue within us (patience, fortitude, compassion). I will not speak toward the specific purpose of your particular circumstance, but I do know of somebody who lost their parents at a young age, then later in life opened an orphanage. She has helped to raise hundreds of children in her life because of the compassion that was fostered in her through the loss of her own parents. If it weren’t for her, many of those children would have died as children, and now are going on to lead very good lives.
As Saint Paul said in his letter to the Romans, “does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one? (Romans 9:21)” God has a purpose for every single human being. He has a design and a plan that we cannot comprehend–and pain is an inevitable part of it (seriously, inevitable. Even Jesus suffered).

 

[Trishie]

i thank you for one statement,that may be somethings are suffering just becoz we take them as suffering.for example what is suffering for bill gates might be luxury for me.but i request u to clarify one point ’ why doesnt god interfere against acts of physical universe.as u rightly pointed out,we are his children and he loves us.

You make a good point about suffering being relative.

Trying to answer your question.

To a degree only, because, just as God doesn’t interfere with free will or freedom of choice that people have as human creations,
so also He doesn’t interfere with the rest of creation.
People do often pray against reality,
please don’t let this storm come or this earthquake happen, or for God not to let the tests to show someone they love cancer (whereas in fact they do do), but the universe, and our planet are by their nature set up with certain rules.

Take on a personal level. I get fed up with trying to scrounge money for food, so I pray to be able to live without eating. God isn’t going to answer that prayer because it it contrary to the laws of human physiology. There’s no point in getting mad at Him or losing faith in Him because He won’t listen to my logic or my appeal…as a human being, I require food in order to live. It’s the natural law that all living things inevitably comform to.

Equally, the conditions for earthquakes exist, and they’re going to happen when they happen. If the San Andreas fault evenually slips sufficiently and San Francisco crumbles, a lot of people will blame God. But we all know it’s there. We know the risks. Those who live in that reportedly wonderful city live there anyway! It’s a choice. Just as many live in the tornado pathways. We can pray against natural disasters, but we’re praying against natural laws of the created physical world. We choose to live in potentially unsafe areas because most of the time we’re safe, and everything is beautiful and safe right now. But we can’t blame God when natural events strike and devastate.

So what can we pray for…we can always hope for miracles, for God’s extraordinary intervention…but the reality is, what we can rightfully pray for is the direction of our choices, and for our responses to whatever befalls us, our attitudes towards pain and suffering and loss. Occasionally, miracles occur…and they can come from the great positive nature of faith in God and a heart full of trust and thanksgiving despite troubles. We can pray for each other’s emotional and spiritual responses, for our hope and love and faith.

I pray every day for people, and hope that God will intervene, but mostly I know what He will give is spiritual strength to face the inevitable, and to face it in such a way that they can find greater peace, hope, and strength. I sometimes phrase my prayers differently and carefully, with compassion, praying for God’s spirit in their lives. If they are struggling too much and suffering too much I offer them my heart, and I beg Jesus to give them His loving presence. I pray for their healing…and sometimes there are miracles of healing, but mostly there is the long struggle of suffering or of dying, battled against by others’ love and by whatever medical science can offer. We resist dying and we resist the death of those we love, but we all must die. Sometimes it seems unfair, but there are almost always physical reasons why we die, even where grieved people ferociously blame God.

 

[TheWhim]

I strongly doubt if there will ever be a satisfying answer why God permits suffering. The approach I found for myself most convenable is the following:

Does this question pertain to my faith? Obviously, it does. For it sews doubt. But it does nothing more than that. It comes right down to a question about the existence of God: if God would exist, then he wouldn’t allow for this suffering. I’m well aware that this question about the existence of God is the all-important question, but mind you that nothing else is connected to this question - which at first sight hardly seems a consolation. But if it can be shown that this very question does only apparently cast doubt on the existence of God, and even is quite unconnected with the possibility of his existence, this question turns out to be superfluous and we can finally dispose of it.

As a close inspection shows, this is rather an emotional argument(that is entirely without prejudice to its legitimity, reasonableness and validity). We imagine a person who is quite exasperated when looking at all the unimaginable suffering the world is soaked with. He detests this chaos, this absence of the ordering principle that is God, and therefore cannot believe anymore in God. But the truth is, he doesn’t solve his problem thereby. Instead, he makes it only worse. Because now that he has ceased to believe in God, even the faint consolation that could comfort him a little before, namely that there was some hidden meaning in all this suffering nevertheless, has left him. All is plunged into chaos now - he hasn’t won a bit by his rejection of God - he hasn’t solved his emotional poblems - instead, they’re only prone to aggravate. The world was quite bad before, when there was the eye of God looking seemingly unaffected on human misery - and now it has only come out for worse, God’s eye has vanished and even the quaint hope that it might nevertheless exert its benevolent look one day has evaporated. The world seemed bad when being a theist - it seems now rightout dreadful when being an atheist.

The emotional upset, that stands at the beginning of the argument from suffering, is not solved by embracing atheism. And thefore atheism is no solution. In fact, only theism will offer to such a man who has such a fine and sensible heart that he can hardly stand the dread of human suffering around him any more, any consolation, any rest, any calm, any hope. Therefore there really is no reason why he should not stay a Theist. And the whole question, why God permits suffering, turns out to be of no consequences, of no avail, quite superfluous.

This is the one line of thinking I wanted to draw out.

I already read some fine comments on Nietsche’s work dealing with the accusation of God when one has been unjustly treated. The commentator(who was giving his own thoughts, not Nietzsche’s) mentioned that in such prayerful remonstrances and accusations of God we use to appeal “to God against God.” That is: to God(to the image we feel right about God, a God who has revealed himself as the Father of compassion who will never neglect anyone of his beloved creatures) against God(against the actual diseased world and our situation in life that is irreconcilable with our image of God who cannot possibly let such suffering happen). The commentator proceeded to state that the only alternative to atheism was the prayerful accusation of God.

Still close to this thoughts are the words of some theologian I once read somewhere: to become an atheist because of the unsolved theodizee-question is to become an atheist ad maiorem Dei gloriam(for the greater glory of God). Because such a theodizee-atheist still appeals to a secret image of God in his mind and makes this image his standard to judge the present reality and the possiblity of the presence of a God in this reality. In other words, he has never really lost his image of God, his faith in God. “This cannot be God” - he says when looking at the world. “God is greater, God is far more glorious, he wouldn’t allow for suffering.” How does he know? Because, somehow, he still believes.

And indeed it would be hardly conceivable how such a sensible man, so shaken with pity and disgust by suffering, could ever approach something like a cold-hearted nihilist who acts upon atheism and all its immorality as upon the only sure dogma in this world.

 

[LilyM]

Firstly there’s nothing wrong with thinking about these questions, nor with admitting that you might not have the answers. One thing - the question is ‘why do bad things happen to good people’. Have you ever wondered why bad things happen to BAD people? Which they do just as surely as to the good?

My way of looking at it is to consider a young child who is taken by its mother or father to the doctors for a vaccination. All that child knows is that it was jabbed with a needle which hurt like hell and that its arm was sore for a few days afterward.

Not being an adult, it can’t understand that that temporary pain (and all earthly pain is temporary, just as life itself is), will in fact potentially save its life, or at least prevent serious illness.

Now to God there’s one type of life that matters above all else - the life of the soul. Whatever he permits or does to us or to those around us can and should be turned to the good of our immortal souls. Remember He Himself suffered and died - He did so to teach us that good DOES come out of suffering.

 

[yppop]

To One and All
Suffering? As one who has never really suffered, let me tell you about Sophia. Sophia was a 9-year old girl who had spent her entire life in a semi-prone position. She could move her hands up and down at the end of her little stiff arms, but nothing else. She had been brain damaged early in life. I came in contact with her indirectly (I never met her) through my daughter who was in college studying Special Education and was doing a practicum at a Home for Profoundly Handicapped Children (a Catholic facility I might add). My daughter bought her one of those mechanical Santa Clauses that, when activated, made a laughing sound and did a back-flip. At first Sophia had no reaction to it, so my daughter asked me build something that Sophia could operate. I built a switch so that a slight pressure on a good sized sheet of metal would activate Santa. When Sophia placed her hand on the device and Santa laughed and did his back-flip, my daughter said that Sophia’s eyes widened and her face was adorned with a smile. Her single joyous moment in life brought even greater joy on the hearts of the good nuns and young ladies that witnessed the event. Sophia died a few months afterwards.

What do we learn from such stories? Is it merely an example of an exchange of joy? Would God condemn Sophia to a single experience of joy? I don’t think God would use a beautiful child in such a way if there wasn’t something greater awaiting them. God must have something greater in mind.

For me, Sophia’s life reinforced my belief that life has no meaning unless there is a God. To tell Sophia, as an atheist would, that there is no God and that this single lifetime is all that you get (no afterlife, no eternal happiness, no Heaven) is the height of callousness. There must be a God or life makes no sense. But what sense does life make? Why evil, why suffering, why, why, why? The answer must rest on the nature of salvation. What is Heaven like? Can it be described in words that are completely understandable to everyone? I think there is such an answer, one that I’ve contrived to satisfy for my own querulous nature and is based on science. However, I need to reflect further in order to condense it to a readable length.

Be back soon.

Yppop

 

[warpspeedpetey]

so my question is- doesnt god have all the knowledge and wisdom so that he can execute his plans in such a way that it doesnt hurt us?

sure he does, but thats not the problem.

we have free will, thats the problem. we can choose to do wrong.

so think of it as a child. i have raised a few, and when shown what is right they often choose wrong instead. i speak to them about it, but yet again they choose to do wrong. sometimes its more fun. whatever the resaon they perceive a benefit to do wrong.

so i do 1 of 2 things

1. punishment
2. allowing the natural consequences of their actions to befall them.

if they naturally chose to do right than neither would be nesecarry.

 

[yppop]

Taylor007

We all know the free-will-argument, but that only applies to the moral evil known as sin; sin we can avoid. However, free will has nothing to do: with natural evil; with circumstances we cannot control such as floods, tornadoes, fires, and earthquakes; or with the things that happen to our person such as illness and accidents. And we can do very little when we suffer as victims of societal evil such as slavery, war,corruption, poverty, pornography, and abortion; we can merely avoid condoning or contributing to such evil while supporting any effort to diminish it. So we must live this life with our eye to what comes afterward.

I have wondered: what could Heaven possibly like such that God satisfies everyone, especially those who have suffered in this life? How will our after lives compensate for the suffering in this one? I believe in the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. But what does that mean? What body? I thought about such questions and have contrived an answer.

Here is what I want Heaven to be: I want to live this life over with fewer regrets, with the same family, in the same temporal relationships. That means my mother will be my mother and not some woman my own age. The next time around doesn’t have to be perfect, but each subsequent lifetime will be better until my life is perfect. And if each person lives each life with fewer and fewer regrets, eventually the world will be without dictators, terrorists, abortionists, ambulance chasing lawyers, cruel fathers, elitists, etc., etc. Make your own list. If what we experience in this life is tangential time, then the connection between parallel lives is called radial time.
The process of repeated lifetimes in radial time will eventually eliminate societal evil. The world will progressively create a noosphere that eventually reaches the Omega point or Pleroma. All will be saved. That takes care of the moral and societal evil; I have faith that God will take care of the natural evil by making each repetition of geo-creation in radial time more and more like the Garden of Eden.

This is a very subjective view that I present and I am sure some will dismiss as the work of a crackpot, but it is made possible on the basis of the scientific Parallel World Hypothesis which is based on the Many World Interpretation of the Schrodinger Wave Equation. The scenario of parallel lifetimes brings hope to my mind and it would please me to know that it brings hope to others, especially those not as fortunate as I have been.

Incidentally there is an interesting analog in the movie “Groundhog Day” with Bill Murray in which a very cynical newsperson repeats a single day over and over and each time he makes different and better decisions resulting in a better person experiencing the joy of living.

Next question: Why did God allow evil or why is there something instead of nothing. That is a question that addresses God’s omniscience.

Hope for all who suffer!

Yppop

 

[taylor007]

sure he does, but thats not the problem.

we have free will, thats the problem. we can choose to do wrong.

i dont think there is a question of free will here,no,not atleast in the case of so called natural evils. natural evils dont just happen bcoz we choose it. they happen bcoz they obey the laws of physical universe.for me its like saying ‘natural evils happen bcoz thats the way things are in this world’.(i know that statement makes no sense in a logical discussion)
so god doesnt act against the laws of the physical universe(he can if he wants to but he doesnt),i think thats the consensus at this point of this discussion.(except a few times when he does and miracles occur)
i learned so much from the discussion and thank u guys for sharing your wisdom.
and yppop,
i think ur paralell world concept is a really big idea coz i understood nothing of it i would be grateful if u can make that more digestible

 

[yppop]

yppop,
i think ur paralell world concept is a really big idea coz i understood nothing of it i would be grateful if u can make that more digestible

The Parallel World hypothesis is a legitimate scientific interpretation from quantum mechanics. Don’t worry about knowing nothing about it because as a famous cosmologist John Wheeler said, “If you are not completely confused by quantum mechanics, you do not understand it.” Nevertheless, let me try to honor your request and make the PW hypothesis more digestible.

The outcome of any quantum event depends on how an observer observes it. For every event there are multiple possible outcomes (according to Schrodinger’s wave equation). Each outcome defines a specific history. A specific history defines a specific “world”. Therefore, there is a very large, perhaps infinite, number of worlds and everything that could possibly happen in our world (but doesn’t) does happen in some other world.

I believe that the role of the observer in quantum events extends to human events. Every choice that each and every human makes aggregated with the rest of the human race defines a history of the world (the so called parallel world). Therefore, in at least one of those universes, every human made every right and moral choice. Such a world would be perfect in the sense that all moral and societal evil will have been eliminated. We will all make that journey from the world we presently live in to that perfect world together. At each transference to the subsequent world we will experience an increase in goodness both in our individual lives and in how we are organized in societies. I will leave most of the details to you with the young fresh minds to figure out, but I do know that the impetus for the drive to increasing goodness (just as it is in the spiritual axis of this world) will be through the grace of Jesus Christ. That is another story however. I hope this helps you.
YPPOP

 

[taylor007]

The Parallel World hypothesis is a legitimate scientific interpretation from quantum mechanics. Don’t worry about knowing nothing about it because as a famous cosmologist John Wheeler said, “If you are not completely confused by quantum mechanics, you do not understand it.” Nevertheless, let me try to honor your request and make the PW hypothesis more digestible.

The outcome of any quantum event depends on how an observer observes it. For every event there are multiple possible outcomes (according to Schrodinger’s wave equation). Each outcome defines a specific history. A specific history defines a specific “world”. Therefore, there is a very large, perhaps infinite, number of worlds and everything that could possibly happen in our world (but doesn’t) does happen in some other world.

I believe that the role of the observer in quantum events extends to human events. Every choice that each and every human makes aggregated with the rest of the human race defines a history of the world (the so called parallel world). Therefore, in at least one of those universes, every human made every right and moral choice. Such a world would be perfect in the sense that all moral and societal evil will have been eliminated. We will all make that journey from the world we presently live in to that perfect world together. At each transference to the subsequent world we will experience an increase in goodness both in our individual lives and in how we are organized in societies. I will leave most of the details to you with the young fresh minds to figure out, but I do know that the impetus for the drive to increasing goodness (just as it is in the spiritual axis of this world) will be through the grace of Jesus Christ. That is another story however. I hope this helps you.
YPPOP

first of all,thanks a lot for explaining . it sounds like a completely scientific heaven to me.but i dunno, what role does God have in man’s journey to that perfect world ?

 

[yppop]

first of all,thanks a lot for explaining . it sounds like a completely scientific heaven to me.but i dunno, what role does God have in man’s journey to that perfect world ?

taylor007
Thank you for your response.
God does have a passive role in human affairs through the action of His grace. Had God chosen to take an active role, He certainly would have done more to relieve the suffering. However God has a purpose and has chosen us to deal with suffering as best we could. To assist us He has given us grace.

I perceive three forms of grace: habitual (or sanctifying), actual, and sacramental. Let me first explain how I think habitual grace works to increase the goodness in this world. Habitual grace is a present to every human being no matter what their beliefs; the same is true for actual grace; whereas sacramental grace is a Christian concept especially for Catholics.

First habitual grace; it is activated by three human activities: wonder, piety, and love (I hesitate to use “love” because it is a much misused term, I thought about “agape”, a Greek word, but even that has a connotation of one’s own needs however altruistic, I prefer “en rapport”, a French term that connotes a sympathetic and harmonious relationship, in other words a personal feeling for others based on their needs. To simplify things, however, I will use love to mean en rapport).

Wonder, the act of engaging the mind in the contemplation of God’s creation, evokes a feeling of awe. Piety, the act of contemplating the God’s mystery and purpose, evokes a feeling of peace. Love, the act of engaging the needs of others, evokes a feeling of joy. Awe, peace, and joy, our spiritual rewards, are cumulative unlike pride, excitement, and pleasure, our material rewards, which are transitory. Material rewards saturate; spiritual rewards accrue without limit. For the young it is more difficult to find awe, peace, and joy amid the demands of pride, excitement, and pleasure, especially in my country where the temptations are so convenient and plentiful and especially more so for the young than for a man my age (75) for whom passions have ebbed. I don’t mean to suggest that one needs to give up the material rewards; I mean that they should not be the primary focus of one’s action. We can have both. The danger is in letting the material become our focus at the expense of the spiritual because the ashes that remain are ennui, anxiety, and despair. So what you take with you in the next world is the spiritual rewards you accumulate in this one.

I must leave you with those thoughts brief as they are. The other two forms of grace, actual and sacramental are also efficacious in enticing us on the path to perfection. I don’t want this to become an long sermon so I leave actual and sacramental grace for another time.

I hope you don’t mind my use of words you may not be familiar with; it might seem pretentious to you; but I refuse to talk down to you, even though you are only 19. I have 8 grandchildren slightly older than you and 14 that are younger, so I have plenty of experience talking to young people.

Yppop.

 

[taylor007]

taylor007
Thank you for your response.
God does have a passive role in human affairs through the action of His grace. Had God chosen to take an active role, He certainly would have done more to relieve the suffering. However God has a purpose and has chosen us to deal with suffering as best we could. To assist us He has given us grace.

I perceive three forms of grace: habitual (or sanctifying), actual, and sacramental. Let me first explain how I think habitual grace works to increase the goodness in this world. Habitual grace is a present to every human being no matter what their beliefs; the same is true for actual grace; whereas sacramental grace is a Christian concept especially for Catholics.

First habitual grace; it is activated by three human activities: wonder, piety, and love (I hesitate to use “love” because it is a much misused term, I thought about “agape”, a Greek word, but even that has a connotation of one’s own needs however altruistic, I prefer “en rapport”, a French term that connotes a sympathetic and harmonious relationship, in other words a personal feeling for others based on their needs. To simplify things, however, I will use love to mean en rapport).

Wonder, the act of engaging the mind in the contemplation of God’s creation, evokes a feeling of awe. Piety, the act of contemplating the God’s mystery and purpose, evokes a feeling of peace. Love, the act of engaging the needs of others, evokes a feeling of joy. Awe, peace, and joy, our spiritual rewards, are cumulative unlike pride, excitement, and pleasure, our material rewards, which are transitory. Material rewards saturate; spiritual rewards accrue without limit. For the young it is more difficult to find awe, peace, and joy amid the demands of pride, excitement, and pleasure, especially in my country where the temptations are so convenient and plentiful and especially more so for the young than for a man my age (75) for whom passions have ebbed. I don’t mean to suggest that one needs to give up the material rewards; I mean that they should not be the primary focus of one’s action. We can have both. The danger is in letting the material become our focus at the expense of the spiritual because the ashes that remain are ennui, anxiety, and despair. So what you take with you in the next world is the spiritual rewards you accumulate in this one.

I must leave you with those thoughts brief as they are. The other two forms of grace, actual and sacramental are also efficacious in enticing us on the path to perfection. I don’t want this to become an long sermon so I leave actual and sacramental grace for another time.

I hope you don’t mind my use of words you may not be familiar with; it might seem pretentious to you; but I refuse to talk down to you, even though you are only 19. I have 8 grandchildren slightly older than you and 14 that are younger, so I have plenty of experience talking to young people.

Yppop.

yppop,thank u for sharing your concepts.i dont know,but i dont think the paralell world idea complies with catholic idea of heaven and hell. according to ur concept ,all people will pass through the perfect world(heaven) and the most disorderly world(hell) irrespective of their deeds in this life,wont they? also they wont be spending the eternity in such worlds.he would continue the cycle after his life there,wont he ?if i am not mistaken,christianity says your deeds in this life decides where you spend the eternity ,with god or with the devil.ofcourse,living in the perfect world can be interpreted as living with god and living in the most disorderly world as living with the devil.but are they spending the eternity there? u can argue that there is no death in the perfect world but u cant say so with hell.
i think the paralell world concept bears some semblance to budhist concept of reincarnations until we achieve nirvana.like u said ,we carry only the spiritual rewards to the next ’ world ’ .and budhism says your deeds in this lifetime decides your form in the next world,after your reincarnation
may be eternity includes all the time that you are spending in all the worlds together.
again,i am afraid if i am littering this forum with too much childish garbage. just thinking out loud …