suffering

[handmaidenByzC]

I have some questions maybe someone can help with. I have read much of the scripture especially from St Paul, “for those who love God, all things work together for good”. And St Luke, “not my will but thine be done.”
Also, in the Catholic church we learn about taking up our cross, that suffering is a grace that the Lord gives us to draw us near, to help us see that He is important, not worldly things.
My questions are, why must others suffer due to OUR faults…does God feel that watching others suffer is harder than suffering ourselves? Does He have no mercy on others who are innocent? They did not ask or deserve a cross.
Second question…If we are to learn that noting of this world is worthwhile, why not just pray to be called home? I know you will say that it is not true that nothing of this earthly world is of God, yet it IS. Afterall, look into the faces of others…and you will see Christ. Bearing suffering can teach others who are all of Christ…
This does not matter much for me…I just FEEL God has taught me that nothing of this world is of value…it is time to come home.
(fyi, have worked, worked, studied, trained, trained, tried, tried, tried…and God makes no use of my life…if not worldly…not as a religious either)

I understand we think of “theosis” not purgatory per see. But if suffering on earth reduces need for theosis or time in purgatory…what is the difference whether we suffer here or there. If we are going to suffer…is there any evidence that it is easier in one place compared with another. Also, if we are to suffer…would it not make sense to experience the splendor of God here on earth…when we will have heaven for an eternity. Is not a smile and a wonderful, happy life in Christ more of a witness to others. I am thinking of “born again” christians. They typically are rejoicing, saying they are filled with the holy spirit…this jubilant disposition is very moving to others. The catholic “sufferer” is less convincing of the Glory of God. Do I make sense?? Perhaps are just both part of God’s plan…and Catholics are just chosen for this path. I dunno

thank you,
handmaidern

 

[centurionguard]

Some Saint I read once say that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. Applying this to my own life, as I look back over my whole life, I see pain present all along in life, but suffering as option only since my spiritual conversion.
Being born into and growing up in a loving family of five siblings, together with our parents, we experienced poverty, many harsh medical illnesses, hard work, and even individual personal affliction be in physical or mental from within and from outside forces beyond our control we were left trying to survive. We lived in a number of Canadian cities and smaller towns and sometimes miles from school with no school bus. This meant a lot of walking, and sometimes even dressed poorly, and often without the family luxuary of automobile transportation. In hindsight; looking back on that time of my life, I honestly have to thank Jesus for the valuable experience of being poor, and also that the gift of faith that is still lived in our family which not only carried us through in varying degrees, but brought each us close to God, Who blessed us to be close to each other. Given the circumstances of numerous broken families in todays society, this is not something I easily take for granted.
Later in my adult years God gave me some understanding of realizing with difficulties in between, that (“Suffering is an Option of acceptance in my life”). Focusing on the life of Jesus and how he suffered for our salvation, and on the lives of the saints who followed in his footsteps, has helped me to slowly realize that suffering in whatever form or seriousness has a purpose and a meaning in God’s plan of salvation for the world even if we ourselves fail from time to time in this paradoxical understanding
Through pain, tiredness, failures, struggles, temptations, and hearfelt brokenness, I gradually began to realize that I too am a sinner like everyone else and that I too need salvation.
My thirty-two years of walking as victim of gang-rape and torture at gunpoint, was (“is”) and has been the key time for my conversion and growth. Its taken so many years to get in touch with my true self hidden behide vulnerable walls and masks and learning to let go of my false self. I have begun to realize that I had feelings like everyone else and yes; it was okay to cry and I still do; though believing that God forgave my many sins, I also needed to forgive myself; realizing that suffering is a powerful means of salvation greatly in my own life as it is in the lives of others. Its taken me so many decades to realize that this slow, painful, and lifetime journey, would reconcile me with God, with my true self that God created, and realizing such is the same with every person I meet in their own life journey.
Many years ago, I read a talk that Pope John Paul II gave to those who suffer. He gave what he called “three little lights” to help deal with suffering: The first little light is to see suffering present in our lives whether it is physical, emotional, psychological, moral, family or church related. I must not exaggerate it or minimize it.
The second little light is to accept suffering in faith, that God allows it and nurtures it in our own humility into something good. This is not a blind resignation, but faith assures us that Jesus can if we allow Him to draw good out of evil. Suffering accepted in faith gives rise to serenity and hope. It is to realize within ourselves that we must be as active as possible and assume responsibility for ourselves.
The third and most important light is oblation. The offering of suffering, made through love of our Lord Jesus Christ and others, leads to a very high degree of charity that absorbs us into the love of Christ within the Mystery of the Holy Trinity for humanity.
These three little lights in my continuous learning have been a tremendous help for me personally and even as now in my difficult terminal illness with pancreatic cancer today. They have carried me through struggles, temptations, numerous hospital stays, and continuous ongoing conversion. Though I still struggle with suffering, I am no longer afraid of it. On the contrary, I find it so meaningful! I see that suffering is the greatest mystery, for my own salvation and that of others. Jesus saved the whole world by his suffering and death and resurrection. The closer I and we come to him on the cross, the closer I am, we are to the very source of salvation. Thank you, Jesus!

 

[Spirit1333]

centurionguard, may God bless you in this time of your life. Both my parents had pancreatic cancer. You are in my prayers.

handmaiden, we all have pain and suffering, how we choose to respond is up to us. I get between 7-25 migraine headaches a month, some more severe than others, many a time I’ve ended up in the emergency room. The pain can get excrutiating. I choose to offer my pain to the Lord and have Him turn it into prayer so that it can benefit those most in need. This way I know I am not suffering in vain. I also think of the crown of thorns and I cry for both of us.

I am a cancer survivor but the chemotherapy gave me chronic kidney disease, my kidney’s are functioning at 23% and I am facing dialysis. I’ve had many painful surguries. I have a thyroid problem that makes me very tired, my bones are week and I suffer from depression every so often.

However, I LOVE life, it is so short, I want to make the best of it. Loved ones have died in my arms, and I’ve seen babies born, life is a wonder. I am totally in Love with Our Lord and that is what keeps me going. I am “born again” everytime I hold my Creator in my hands and take communion. What a testament to our Catholic faith!

To answer you questions: 1) God is Mercy, He is merciful enough to give us time on earth to build a relationship with Him so that we may then join Him for all eternity. But our time here with Him is just as important.
2) Everything in this world is worthwile, our relationships, our spirituality, our God.

I don’t know the specifics of your situation, but you will be in my prayers. I pray for your peace of mind and for your happiness. God Bless you.

 

[handmaidenByzC]

Dearest Centurionguard,
I am so very, very sorry for all of your suffering. Your life sounds like that of a saint’s. May God comfort you and protect you…thank you for responding. I deal with cancer all of the time in my profession…for your whole life of suffering I am sorry. I am most glad that your chose to share your story with me…it was not what I expected. I am very touched by your story.

spirit1333…your post makes me sorry I posted…probably not intended…but to me it sounds that you missed my point…and that you judge my feelings. It did not sound charitable or thoughtful toward me. Please do not respond to me again. You are right…you have no idea what I have been through…and I do not wish to exchange war stories, you might be surprised by my stories. I was only expressing my anguish…you judged me instead.
Please do not repost to this thread…you can start another with centurionguard.
God Bless You

 

[Julia_Mae]

(fyi, have worked, worked, studied, trained, trained, tried, tried, tried…and God makes no use of my life…if not worldly…not as a religious either)

You don’t know this.

Listen to me: you don’t know this.

I don’t want to seem harsh to you, but you seem to have a pretty high opinion of yourself. Like you can know God’s Plan for you or He should be doing something with you that you think is worthy of all that working, studying, training…

Acceptance, obedience, humility. You have no ideas what wonders are worked in Heaven because you scrub a floor while thanking God for the opportunity to do so.

God’s power is made perfect in weakness, not how much you “try.” Stop trying. Do everything that comes to you in prayer.

I once read a biographical post by someone who had been in a horrific clinical depression. She finally just gave up and sat in a chair and waited to die. Her prayer was this: “I don’t know what the point of me is, but maybe You use this to help someone someplace not feel this way. If this is where You want me, so be it. Here I am.” (I’m paraphrasing from memory - I think it’s pretty close). She said she expected nothing, not to be healed or feel better, she couldn’t pray really or do anything but sit and clutch a sacramental she had.

She ended up with a lot of miracles in her life, but not before she accepted what was basically nothingness and not having a bit of consolation for quite a long time.

If you can still scrub a floor or say a prayer, you can do more than she was able to.

All living persons have value to God, all lives, in comas and vegetative states, parapalegics, profoundly retarded, every one. You’d have to be more special than everyone else in the whole world to have no value to God.

He just isn’t required to explain it to you.

 

[fhansen]

I have some questions maybe someone can help with. I have read much of the scripture especially from St Paul, “for those who love God, all things work together for good”. And St Luke, “not my will but thine be done.”
Also, in the Catholic church we learn about taking up our cross, that suffering is a grace that the Lord gives us to draw us near, to help us see that He is important, not worldly things.
My questions are, why must others suffer due to OUR faults…does God feel that watching others suffer is harder than suffering ourselves? Does He have no mercy on others who are innocent? They did not ask or deserve a cross.
Second question…If we are to learn that noting of this world is worthwhile, why not just pray to be called home? I know you will say that it is not true that nothing of this earthly world is of God, yet it IS. Afterall, look into the faces of others…and you will see Christ. Bearing suffering can teach others who are all of Christ…
This does not matter much for me…I just FEEL God has taught me that nothing of this world is of value…it is time to come home.
(fyi, have worked, worked, studied, trained, trained, tried, tried, tried…and God makes no use of my life…if not worldly…not as a religious either)

I understand we think of “theosis” not purgatory per see. But if suffering on earth reduces need for theosis or time in purgatory…what is the difference whether we suffer here or there. If we are going to suffer…is there any evidence that it is easier in one place compared with another. Also, if we are to suffer…would it not make sense to experience the splendor of God here on earth…when we will have heaven for an eternity. Is not a smile and a wonderful, happy life in Christ more of a witness to others. I am thinking of “born again” christians. They typically are rejoicing, saying they are filled with the holy spirit…this jubilant disposition is very moving to others. The catholic “sufferer” is less convincing of the Glory of God. Do I make sense?? Perhaps are just both part of God’s plan…and Catholics are just chosen for this path. I dunno

thank you,
handmaidern

Paul considered the sufferings of this life nothing compared to the glory to come. But we do suffer. We experience-or know- both good and evil in this life and I think that’s the point. We’re to utilize this time to reverse something we’re born with- an attraction or desire for something-anything-other than God first and foremost, above all else.

A great part of our misery here-and presumably of all of our misery in purgatory-stems from this very attraction, this slavery to sin, this thing that seeks to draw us away from God, IMO. Looked at this way, this life has a very definite purpose, which God in His wisdom has designated to be part of our education, if you will.

 

[handmaidenByzC]

wow…I was just trying to understand suffering on earth and in theosis…and what the differences are…I actually feel worse, not better…for asking…I shall ask no more

Julia Mae
“you seem to have a pretty high opinion of yourself.”

wow…what can I say to that…that seems like a very very very unprovoked uncharitable response. you know nothing of me. you do not know if I am jobless, homeless (and briefly have access to computer), penniless. you do not know if I live out of a 13 year old car, with my belongings in the back. you do not know if i would praise God for the chance to scrub a floor for food. you do not know if i am in service to my dying father or suffering brother or sister. you do not know me…you have been presumptuous because i lamented that i might have talents which i longed to use to help others…not myself. you do not know if i have been cast down, ridiculed, sent off. you do not know me.

i prayed today in Divine Liturgy for blessings on all…

I will put this behind me…and not inquire again…it is not helpful to me…nor do i think to others…

i just wanted to share the faith…not be insulted

I am signing off of this thread.

God Bless you all,

handmaiden

 

[fhansen]

wow…I was just trying to understand suffering on earth and in theosis…and what the differences are…I actually feel worse, not better…for asking…I shall ask no more

Julia Mae
“you seem to have a pretty high opinion of yourself.”

wow…what can I say to that…that seems like a very very very unprovoked uncharitable response. you know nothing of me. you do not know if I am jobless, homeless (and briefly have access to computer), penniless. you do not know if I live out of a 13 year old car, with my belongings in the back. you do not know if i would praise God for the chance to scrub a floor for food. you do not know if i am in service to my dying father or suffering brother or sister. you do not know me…you have been presumptuous because i lamented that i might have talents which i longed to use to help others…not myself. you do not know if i have been cast down, ridiculed, sent off. you do not know me.

i prayed today in Divine Liturgy for blessings on all…

I will put this behind me…and not inquire again…it is not helpful to me…nor do i think to others…

i just wanted to share the faith…not be insulted

I am signing off of this thread.

God Bless you all,

handmaiden

handmaiden, sorry if none of us contributed anything worthwhile for you but I think the main point is this: While suffering is inevitable in this life, the Church teaches us what to do with it, how lemons can be turned into lemonade, rather than to simply ignore the issue, and how to have joy in the midst of the suffering.

 

[handmaidenByzC]

fhanson,
my pain was not from you.
…but it seems that mostly no one read my original post or addressed my SPECIFIC questions and points. Instead I got a lesson in “we all suffer…suffering is good.” I thought I explained that I understood that. Please do not beat me over the head with suffering is good…I must see the value…I do…

as I said…at this point…since most no one seemed to be interested in the heart of my questions…and most seem bent on telling me of THEIR suffering and how I SHOULD be, (like they know what is my state in life), I would prefer to just let my inquiry end…I will just ask my spiritual director.

God bless you all,
Again…please just let this go…I no longer seek answers here…again, God bless you all

 

[Julia_Mae]

Julia Mae
“you seem to have a pretty high opinion of yourself.”

wow…what can I say to that…that seems like a very very very unprovoked uncharitable response. you know nothing of me.

You’re right. I don’t know a thing but what you wrote about yourself. And what you wrote was: God makes no use of my life. Now, did you read anything I wrote besides the one line you quoted? Here is the point:

All living persons have value to God, all lives, in comas and vegetative states, parapalegics, profoundly retarded, every one. You’d have to be more special than everyone else in the whole world to have no value to God.

I don’t usually take a lot of time over a response, as I did yours, trying to be “uncharitable.” I was honestly responding to you in the most straightforward way I know to get this message to you: of course you have great value to God. How do I know? Because everyone of us does and you are part of every one of us.

So, not only does God not necessarily make use of us in ways we want Him to, posters don’t respond in concern for us, in ways we think they should, either. Doesn’t change that God loves you and that your life has value, doesn’t change that I write with concern for you.

 

[Samson01]

You’re right. I don’t know a thing but what you wrote about yourself. And what you wrote was: God makes no use of my life. Now, did you read anything I wrote besides the one line you quoted? Here is the point:

I don’t usually take a lot of time over a response, as I did yours, trying to be “uncharitable.” I was honestly responding to you in the most straightforward way I know to get this message to you: of course you have great value to God. How do I know? Because everyone of us does and you are part of every one of us.

So, not only does God not necessarily make use of us in ways we want Him to, posters don’t respond in concern for us, in ways we think they should, either. Doesn’t change that God loves you and that your life has value, doesn’t change that I write with concern for you.

Your right. Some of us make good mill stone stands or would it “be better to have never been born”?

 

[handmaidenByzC]

julia Mae,
You put salt in my wound. your words are to be commended, that you feel “you take great concern.”
if you are concerned…then take leave…as you do not understand…and you put salt into my wounds.

please i ask you, no more

 

[handmaidenByzC]

please, please, please, take leave. I have a spiritual director…I do not need your posts…my original post was ignored and I would have it remain so…as I am tired of being condescendingly lectured. You are right…I am all wrong. You win. You win. You win. Now will you leave me in peace???

 

[Julia_Mae]

Your right. Some of us make good mill stone stands or would it “be better to have never been born”?

I don’t know what this means.

 

[centurionguard]

I thought this Vatican resource site might help answer some questions to Suffering.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

THE QUEST FOR AN ANSWER
TO THE QUESTION OF THE MEANING
OF SUFFERING

 

[centurionguard]

Often when I think about my own personal sufferings in life, I am graced by God to take a hard look at the Passion of Jesus and what it profoundly means. Most of the Saints have been very articulate on this matter. When I look back at my entire life, and not been fully aware, the Cross of Christ has always been set before. It’s taken years to finally take God’s gift of Courage and Humility to actually embrace His Cross for the remainder of my life.

Jesus said; Apart from Me, you can do (“Nothing”)
The big part is asking God to make us understand individually, just how profoundly we are personally (a Nothing without Him.

The Book of Job has always been a great interest to me especially in helping to answer the Why.

Pope John Paul II beautifully articulated this in speaking about The Meaning Of Suffering in the last web-link I inserted in my last post. It really speaks a lot.

**The Book of Job is not the last word on this subject in Revelation. In a certain way it is a foretelling of the Passion of Christ. But already in itself it is sufficient argument why the answer to the question about the meaning of suffering is not to be unreservedly linked to the moral order, based on justice alone. While such an answer has a fundamental and transcendent reason and validity, at the same time it is seen to be not only unsatisfactory in cases similar to the suffering of the just man Job, but it even seems to trivialize and impoverish the concept of justice which we encounter in Revelation.

1. The Book of Job poses in an extremely acute way the question of the “why” of suffering; it also shows that suffering strikes the innocent, but it does not yet give the solution to the problem.

Already in the Old Testament we note an orientation that begins to go beyond the concept according to which suffering has a meaning only as a punishment for sin, insofar as it emphasizes at the same time the educational value of suffering as a punishment. Thus in the sufferings inflicted by God upon the Chosen People there is included an invitation of his mercy, which corrects in order to lead to conversion: “… these punishments were designed not to destroy but to discipline our people”(26).

Thus the personal dimension of punishment is affirmed. According to this dimension, punishment has a meaning not only because it serves to repay the objective evil of the transgression with another evil, but first and foremost because it creates the possibility of rebuilding goodness in the subject who suffers.

This is an extremely important aspect of suffering. It is profoundly rooted in the entire Revelation of the Old and above all the New Covenant. Suffering must serve for conversion, that is, for the rebuilding of goodness in the subject, who can recognize the divine mercy in this call to repentance. The purpose of penance is to overcome evil, which under different forms lies dormant in man. Its purpose is also to strengthen goodness both in man himself and in his relationships with others and especially with God.

1. But in order to perceive the true answer to the “why” af suffering, we must look to the revelation of divine love, the ultimate source of the meaning of everything that exists. Love is also the richest source of the meaning of suffering, which always remains a mystery: we are conscious of the insufficiency and inadequacy of our explanations. Christ causes us to enter into the mystery and to discover the “why” of suffering, as far as we are capable of grasping the sublimity of divine love.

In order to discover the profound meaning of suffering, following the revealed word of God, we must open ourselves wide to the human subject in his manifold potentiality. We must above all accept the light of Revelation not only insofar as it expresses the transcendent order of justice but also insofar as it illuminates this order with Love, as the definitive source of everything that exists. Love is: also the fullest source of the answer to the question of the meaning of suffering. This answer has been given by God to man in the Cross of Jesus Christ. **