Suffering

[Catholic80]

One thing I have noticed when people talk about suffering and offering things up, they never mention about suffering that is self-inflicted. There are people who choose to be bitter and suffer greatly because of it. Or there’s the person who must always get their way and when they don’t, they can’t handle it and are reduced to adult tantrums and are lonely and suffer because of their take on life. And Hitler, I’m sure, suffered a lot because of his anger. So how is this type of suffering redemptive?

 

[joanofarc2008]

Yes, because we can always learn and change and become closer to Christ even through that suffering.

 

[MarcoPolo]

If I’m not mistaken, suffering due to selfishness or some such is not efficacious or redemptive. Neither would be, say, animal suffering. Penances or suffering in innocence, offered up by an act of the will is redemptive.

 

[JRKH]

If I’m not mistaken, suffering due to selfishness or some such is not efficacious or redemptive. Neither would be, say, animal suffering. Penances or suffering in innocence, offered up by an act of the will is redemptive.

 

[JRKH]

One thing I have noticed when people talk about suffering and offering things up, they never mention about suffering that is self-inflicted. There are people who choose to be bitter and suffer greatly because of it. Or there’s the person who must always get their way and when they don’t, they can’t handle it and are reduced to adult tantrums and are lonely and suffer because of their take on life. And Hitler, I’m sure, suffered a lot because of his anger. So how is this type of suffering redemptive?

Mostly I would say that the people described above would never think of offering up their sufferings. They don’t view these things as “sufferings” that have any value. They simply rail against what they see as some sort of injustice against them.

Such people are deeply mired in severe error (sin) because they lack a good foundation of Love and so they receive no benefit from their suffering…because they don’t see how it is their own behavior that has caused it and so they do not change…

Peace
James

 

[joanofarc2008]

If I’m not mistaken, suffering due to selfishness or some such is not efficacious or redemptive. Neither would be, say, animal suffering. Penances or suffering in innocence, offered up by an act of the will is redemptive.

I would say you are right but I think that the suffering can still have value.

 

[Della]

I would say you are right but I think that the suffering can still have value.

If it drives them to God it certainly would. If not, it’s all in vain for the sufferings of sin are results of sin not of righteousness/natural causes which we do not inflict on ourselves. Such persons only lose whatever good they might have had by squandering opportunities to be/do good.

 

[Sarcelle]

I admit to struggling with this. When I was younger, the term “offer it up” meant to me that God liked to see us suffer.

 

[Catholic80]

I admit to struggling with this. When I was younger, the term “offer it up” meant to me that God liked to see us suffer.

It’s not the suffering part that I’m questioning… Suffering is a great grace. But my question is directed towards those who [seem to] cause their own suffering deliberately by their own hardheartedness.

My guess is that even they ever realize it, the suffering can still be offered up and so would not be in vain… if it’s offered up. And I guess the suffering is still a grace, because God is still trying to direct their hearts to the good through suffering.

 

[guanophore]

One thing I have noticed when people talk about suffering and offering things up, they never mention about suffering that is self-inflicted. There are people who choose to be bitter and suffer greatly because of it. Or there’s the person who must always get their way and when they don’t, they can’t handle it and are reduced to adult tantrums and are lonely and suffer because of their take on life. And Hitler, I’m sure, suffered a lot because of his anger. So how is this type of suffering redemptive?

In order for our suffering to be redemptive, we must be in a state of grace. when a person is lacking in charity through unforgiveness as you describe here, or self centered rather than God centered, the suffering only serves the evil one.

People around such persons, though, who suffer as a result of their bitterness and anger, can offer up their own on behalf of such tortured souls. I believe this is often how marriage transforms souls, when a believing partner undertakes to respond in love to the unloving.

 

[guanophore]

It’s not the suffering part that I’m questioning… Suffering is a great grace. But my question is directed towards those who [seem to] cause their own suffering deliberately by their own hardheartedness.

My guess is that even they ever realize it, the suffering can still be offered up and so would not be in vain… if it’s offered up. And I guess the suffering is still a grace, because God is still trying to direct their hearts to the good through suffering.

Suffering is a result of evil, and the Fall. In and of itself, it works only death and despair. I think it is not the suffering itself that is grace, but how God works in and through the suffering that is the grace. The most grievous human suffering is the death of our Lord on the cross, a cup that He would have let pass if He could.

Heb 12:2
Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

It is the joy that is set before us that enables us to endure our crosses in life. When a person creates their own suffering, and does not have hope, such suffering is not graced.

 

[Sarcelle]

Suffering is a result of evil, and the Fall. In and of itself, it works only death and despair. I think it is not the suffering itself that is grace, but how God works in and through the suffering that is the grace. The most grievous human suffering is the death of our Lord on the cross, a cup that He would have let pass if He could.

Heb 12:2
Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

It is the joy that is set before us that enables us to endure our crosses in life. When a person creates their own suffering, and does not have hope, such suffering is not graced.

I agree. I am not casting aspersions on anyone here but if we say suffering is a great grace than this can be abused. It’s like telling someone who is suffering, such as a victim of abuse to stay with the abuser and offer it up, since suffering is good. Believe me, I’ve actually seen this happen. My mother had a good friend who used to babysit me. She was an abused wife and members of the Catholic church she attended advised her to stay with her abusive husband and offer up her sufferings.

Suffering can be redeemed and God can bring something good out of suffering. Suffering as a whole is a result of this fallen world.

 

[Della]

I agree. I am not casting aspersions on anyone here but if we say suffering is a great grace than this can be abused. It’s like telling someone who is suffering, such as a victim of abuse to stay with the abuser and offer it up, since suffering is good. Believe me, I’ve actually seen this happen. My mother had a good friend who used to babysit me. She was an abused wife and members of the Catholic church she attended advised her to stay with her abusive husband and offer up her sufferings.

Suffering can be redeemed and God can bring something good out of suffering. Suffering as a whole is a result of this fallen world.

The OP’s question is about the suffering that sinners have from commiting their sins and if that suffering benefits them or is redemptive. In line with the topic, I believe that what the abused wife is suffering is because of the sins of another, and she certainly can and should offer it up, but that doesn’t mean she has to stay and go on being abused. She can separate from her husband if he won’t go to counseling and stop abusing her and even divorce him if necessary. People ought to be careful how they advise women in such circumstances. It may be the lady is called to heroic virtue by remaining with her husband who still abuses her, but that is for her to discern not for others to push on her. It is more likely she should get herself and her children (if she has any) out of that situation, for her safety and that of her children, and offer up the sufferings that come with having to do so.

 

[Catholic80]

I agree. I am not casting aspersions on anyone here but if we say suffering is a great grace than this can be abused. It’s like telling someone who is suffering, such as a victim of abuse to stay with the abuser and offer it up, since suffering is good. Believe me, I’ve actually seen this happen. My mother had a good friend who used to babysit me. She was an abused wife and members of the Catholic church she attended advised her to stay with her abusive husband and offer up her sufferings.

Suffering can be redeemed and God can bring something good out of suffering. Suffering as a whole is a result of this fallen world.

I didn’t mean that because suffering is a grace, we shouldn’t try to end suffering or alleviate it. For example, if a person has cancer, they should do everything they can within reason to get healthy again. But, they can offer their sufferings up in the meantime.

There are so many saints who have been quoted saying things like, "I desire to suffer always and not to die. I should add: this is not my will, it is my inclination. It is sweet to think of Jesus; but it is sweeter to do His will. " -Bl Mary of Jesus Crucified “The Little Arab”

And “Suffering is a great grace; through suffering the soul becomes like the Saviour; in suffering love becomes crystallised; the greater the suffering, the purer the love. (57)”
–St. Faustina

I could keep posting, but clearly, even the saints saw suffering as something directly given them by God. Many saints loved to suffer for souls.

 

[Catholic80]

In order for our suffering to be redemptive, we must be in a state of grace. when a person is lacking in charity through unforgiveness as you describe here, or self centered rather than God centered, the suffering only serves the evil one.

People around such persons, though, who suffer as a result of their bitterness and anger, can offer up their own on behalf of such tortured souls. I believe this is often how marriage transforms souls, when a believing partner undertakes to respond in love to the unloving.

I’ve heard people say that before, but I’m curious, how exactly does one offer the suffering of another? Could you give an example?

Also, let’s say that person who causes their own suffering goes back and forth between causing their own suffering and then repenting of their sin, and then falling back and forth again and again. Are they ever in the state of grace? For example, a drug addict may not want to be a drug addict, but they are suffering greatly but at the same time, they can’t rid themselves of their sin. They realize they are suffering. Can they offer up their suffering?

 

[Sarcelle]

I didn’t mean that because suffering is a grace, we shouldn’t try to end suffering or alleviate it. For example, if a person has cancer, they should do everything they can within reason to get healthy again. But, they can offer their sufferings up in the meantime.

There are so many saints who have been quoted saying things like, "I desire to suffer always and not to die. I should add: this is not my will, it is my inclination. It is sweet to think of Jesus; but it is sweeter to do His will. " -Bl Mary of Jesus Crucified “The Little Arab”

And “Suffering is a great grace; through suffering the soul becomes like the Saviour; in suffering love becomes crystallised; the greater the suffering, the purer the love. (57)”
–St. Faustina

I could keep posting, but clearly, even the saints saw suffering as something directly given them by God. Many saints loved to suffer for souls.

I was also puzzled by what most of the saints requested of Christ. They asked to experience what He suffered in His Passion. Why would anyone want to do this?

I thought about this some more, and all of a sudden it hit me. When they experienced His Passion, they also experienced the depths of His love, what He was willing to suffer for love of humanity.