Suffering

[vames]

Jacinta couldn’t have said “no”, because she was conditioned to think that it’s a good thing to sacrifice herself and to offer all the sufferings that she can get - BOTH the unavoidable ones, as @downunder correctly stated above (what she went through was beyond the possibilities of medical science at that time) AND the self-inflicted ones: if you read all what Lucia wrote, you’ll notice an episode when the children were far away from their home, on a hot day, and Jacinta refused to eat and drink water, althought she was already weakened by hunger and thirst. Or another episode when she picked only bitter acorns and olives to eat, again to make a sacrifice. The little girl obsessively repeated that she wants to suffer for others’ sins and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Do you really think that Jesus and Mary were delighted to accept such sacrifices? That God has indeed predestined Jacinta to die a painful death for this purpose?

We are angry at this utterly absurd legislation that pretends to allow children to “choose” to be euthanized. We are angry at pedophile advocates who pretend that children can “consent”. The Church states that the law of fasting binds only those who have attained their majority; the Church also says that excommunication isn’t for children under 16, because of their lack of the full use of reason. And yet we accept and praise the idea that a 7-year-old could choose to suffer for others’ sins and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Lucia explains clearly how this obsession with suffering and sacrifice has developed in the mind of her little sister:

There was a Crucifix hanging on the wall.
“Alright” I answered, “get up on a chair, bring the Crucifix over here, kneel down and give him three hugs and three kisses; one for Francisco, one for me and the other for yourself.”
“To Our Lord, yes, I’ll give him as many as you like,” and she ran to get the Crucifix.
She kissed it and hugged it with such devotion that I have never forgotten it.
Then, looking attentively at the figure of Our Lord, she asked: “Why is Our Lord nailed to the cross like that?”
Because He died for us.”
“Tell me how it happened,” she said.​

When the little one heard me telling of the sufferings of Our Lord, she was moved to tears. From then on, she often asked me to tell it to her all over again. She would weep and grieve saying: “Our poor dear Lord! I’ll never sin again! I don’t want Our Lord to suffer any more!”

I’m sure many of us can remember the same reaction from our own childhood, the difference being that we weren’t conditioned and encouraged to think about Jesus and Mary as people who need us as co-redeemers by our own sufferings.

That’s why, back to the correct observation of @downunder that “In all accounts you have given medical science did all they could and the kids offered it up as they were told to as a sin offering”, I wonder about the truth of this kind of consolation found by Jacinta. The proposal made by the apparition of Virgin Mary’s (“She asked me if I still want to convert more sinners. I said I did. She told me I would be going to a hospital where I would suffer a great deal; and* that I am to suffer for the conversion of sinners, in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and for love of Jesus*.”) reinforced in the mind of Jacinta the idea that she was called to make reparation for others’ sins. So she indeed found a way to bear her illness and pains, she found a meaning in her sufferings and a consolation. But how true was this consolation? Again, has God predestined this young child to die a painful death for this purpose?

 

[down_under]

I have seen nothing set posted to suggest that the suffering of these people was not either something any of the rest of us (if we were a whimsical youngster) might have done during lent, or scientifically medically untreatable suffering that was foretold before hand by a vision. The unusual bit comes from the fact they were told in advance of the illness/disease, and then that someone so young agreed to offer it up and not get lost in despair in such circumstances. You could see despair (real biblical despair no hope) being the answer to a situation like that for someone so young. These children united there sufferings with Christ (we all suffer in imitation of Christ who first showed us how suffering can have value) and suffered to further his salvific mission just like the rest of us. If there sufferings had been medically treatable AND they refused such treatment, or were told to refuse such available treatment by vision, then we have a different discussion. IMHO for whatever that is worth.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Jacinta couldn’t have said “no”, because she was conditioned to think that it’s a good thing to sacrifice herself and to offer all the sufferings that she can get -

I don’t see a bit of evidence of this in any of the children. It’s not like Jacinta was the only child who consented, all three of them did. It’s not like any of them were suffering for Jesus or had any notions about it before the apparitions. Indeed, they cheated when they said the Rosary so they’d have more playtime.

I also think your use of the word “obsessive” is uncalled-for. They are not obsessed, but dedicated, as far as I can see.

Do you really think that Jesus and Mary were delighted to accept such sacrifices? That God has indeed predestined Jacinta to die a painful death for this purpose?

Yes, to the first question. The view from and of Eternity is quite different than our limited worldview. The children gave away their lunches every day to poor children and so, they ate those acorns you mentioned and whatever else they could gather from the land. Is this pleasing to God? Of course.

If a child tells a parent they want to do without Christmas presents one year and instead use the money to buy presents for the poor, wouldn’t that please the parent? You want to make a line someplace where one kind of thing is obsessive and another kind of thing admirable and reasonable. But in this case, we are speaking of God willing a situation that was entirely between God, in His messenger Mary and these children.

The second question involves a discussion of “predestination” and is another topic, I think.
But, God didn’t purposefully create Jacinta’s illness and suffering. God could have taken her early. She was fully informed of what would happen and chose to have that happen, she didn’t say, “Whoa! Hang on! I changed my mind.” God didn’t make Lucy’s mother beat her multiple time with a broom handle to get her to recant her story.

In comparison to an Eternity in Heaven, these children suffered very little. In comparison to a well-cared for American child of the 20th century, they suffered a lot. How many American children do you think are getting to heaven? How many who are abused, tortured, broken, discarded do you think suffer more than Jacinta? The amount of suffering is really not the point. The result of the purposeful offering of one’ s suffering to God as a model for all of us, for all adults, this is the point. The result is Eternity of Joy in God.

Do you think Jacinta ever regretted her decision? Do you think, she, now, alive and well and in joyful union with God would post here and tell you she wishes it had been different? How about the souls saved from Hell by her and her brother’s and cousin’s actions, what would they say?

We are angry at this utterly absurd legislation that pretends to allow children to “choose” to be euthanized. We are angry at pedophile advocates who pretend that children can “consent”

.

Of course, because these are the evil things done by people, these are not supernatural events brought about by Divine intervention.

Lucia explains clearly how this obsession with suffering and sacrifice has developed in the mind of her little sister:

Picking and choosing bits and trying to make then fit your “obsession” hypothesis isn’t going to work very well when Lucy also tells us that Jacinta was a bit of a manipulator only happy when they played a game she could win where she took all of Lucy’s buttons and Lucy was going to be in trouble with her broom-handle wielding mother, but Jacinta wouldn’t give the buttons back, so the next day when they played she would not have to sacrifice her own buttons if she lost. Girl would have been a star poker player in another day and age!

So she indeed found a way to bear her illness and pains, she found a meaning in her sufferings and a consolation. But how true was this consolation? Again, has God predestined this young child to die a painful death for this purpose?

First, there’s zero evidence that these kids were ever taught by anyone they had to be “co-redeemers” or suffer for other’s sins. None at all. So, what are you really saying? That the apparition wasn’t from God? That there was no apparition? That the Church and the teaching about suffering is wrong?

The two words you use over and over that seem to be to be entirely inappropriate to this issue are “obsession” and “predesination.” You are suggesting with the word “obsession” that all three children were suffering from the same kind of mental disorder simultaneously. Yet, they came from very different types of households and we have no reports that other children in this village ever did the same things. We also have no evidence to suggest these thoughts ever entered their minds before the apparitions.

With “predestination” you seem to be ignoring that God doesn’t invent evil and suffering, but are suggesting He did purposely design a terrible fate for a child. By this question:

But how true was this consolation?

You call into question some of the most basic teachings of the Catholic Church. Perhaps this isn’t your intention and you’ll explain a little more.

 

[vames]

First, I didn’t use “obsession” as implying any mental disorder; I guess all of us know examples of children that develop innocent obsessions over various things that happen to impress them greatly - it’s not the sign of a mental disorder, but only a measure of how impressionable a child can be. These obsessions pass with age, it’s nothing wrong with them. Sometimes such obsessions are stimulated to grow - usually when there are more than one child involved (these children constantly encouraged each other to suffer) and when the adults are hostile (the apparitions were the children’s most prized secret and their mortifications were practiced in secret, exactly like a game in which children play roles, hiding themselves from the eyes of adults).

Second, I didn’t pick only bits that make then fit my “obsession” hypothesis; I could quote many things from Lucia’s writings that point to the same fact - that the children were repeatedly requested to suffer and sacrifice themselves in reparation for other people’s sins. This is what I called conditioning: they came from very religious families, their mental imagery was filled with powerful religious representations and they taught and encouraged each other to develop their emotional reactions in this area - compassion for Jesus crucified, love for Jesus, the angels and Mary, fear of hell, pity for the sinners, willingness to help other people and finally the mission to do exceptional, heroic things for a noble cause - something that children are notoriously good at.

As it drew closer, we were able to distinguish its features. It was a young man, about fourteen or fifteen years old, whiter than snow, transparent as crystal when the sun shines through it, and of great beauty. On reaching us, he said: “Do not be afraid! I am the Angel of Peace. Pray with me.”​

Suddenly, we saw beside us the same figure, or rather, Angel, as it seemed to me. “What are you doing? he asked. “Pray, pray very much! The most Holy Hearts of Jesus and Mary have designs of mercy on you. Offer prayers and sacrifices constantly to the most High.” How are we to make sacrifices? I asked. “Make of everything you can a sacrifice, and offer it to God as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and in supplication for the conversion of sinners. You will thus draw down peace upon your country. I am its Guardian Angel, the Angel of Portugal. Above all, accept and bear with submission, the suffering which the Lord will send you.”​

We agreed never to reveal to anyone the words Our Lady spoke to us that day. After having promised to take us to Heaven, she [the apparition of Mary] asked: “Are you willing to offer yourselves to God to bear all the sufferings He will send you, as an act of reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and of supplication for the conversion of sinners?” “Yes we are willing,” was our reply. “Then, you are going to have much to suffer, but the grace of God will be your comfort.”​

When Jacinta saw me in tears, she tried to console me, saying: “Don’t cry. Surely,** these are the sacrifices which the Angel said that God was going to send us**. That’s why you are suffering, so that you can make reparation to Him and convert sinners.”​

This was the day on which Our Lady deigned to reveal to us the Secret. After that, to revive my flagging fervor, She said to us: “Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say many times to Jesus, especially when you make some sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of You, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”

Now it’s a thing to gave your lunch to other children and completely another to seek occasions to inflict pain on yourself, when you are a child. Adults who want to wear cilices or to self-flagellate themselves are told to do that only under the supervision of a spiritual director. These children were alone and aware that they did something secret and forbidden.

Some days later, as we were walking along the road with our sheep, I found a piece of rope that had fallen off a cart. I picked it up and, just for fun, I tied it around my arm. Before long, I noticed that the rope was hurting me.** “Look, this hurts!” I said to my cousins. “We could tie it round our waist and offer this sacrifice to God.” The poor children promptly fell in with my suggestion. **We then set about dividing it between the three of us, by placing it across a stone and striking it with the sharp edge of another one that served as a knife. Either because of the thickness or roughness of the rope, or sometimes we tied it too tightly, this instrument of penance often caused us terrible suffering. Now and then, Jacinta could not keep back her tears, so great was the discomfort this caused her. Whenever I urged her to remove it, she replied: “No! I want to offer this sacrifice to Our Lord in reparation, and for the conversion of sinners.”

Another day we were playing, picking little plants off the wall and pressing them in our hands to hear them crack. While Jacinta was plucking these plants, she happened to catch hold of some nettles and stung herself. She no sooner felt the pain than she squeezed them more tightly in her hands, and said to us: “Look! Look! Here is something else with which we can mortify ourselves!” From that time on, we used to hit our legs occasionally with nettles, so as to offer to God yet another sacrifice.

That’s why I asked if the consolation was real. How do I “call into question some of the most basic teachings of the Catholic Church”, since the Church says nowhere that little children must seek every occasion to suffer and sacrifice themselves to make reparation for the sins against the Immaculate Heart of Mary?

 

[Julia_Mae]

First, I didn’t use “obsession” as implying any mental disorder; I guess all of us know examples of children that develop innocent obsessions over various things that happen to impress them greatly -

I never met anyone, including a child “obsessed” with an idea. They manage to have many thoughts in their heads, even when they love purple dinosaurs. .

This is what I called conditioning: they came from very religious families, their mental imagery was filled with powerful religious representations and they taught and encouraged each other to develop their emotional reactions in this area - compassion for Jesus crucified, love for Jesus, the angels and Mary, fear of hell, pity for the sinners, willingness to help other people and finally the mission to do exceptional, heroic things for a noble cause - something that children are notoriously good at.

That’s not what their lives were like at all, though. As previously mentioned, they were told to say a Rosary after lunch and they didn’t, they just said Hail Mary on each small bead and Our Father on the large ones so it would be over faster and they could play more. When Jacinta got the Crucifix and kissed Jesus in the game you cited here, she asked Lucy why Jesus was nailed to the Cross. Jacinta and Francisco had no Catechism at all, except what Lucy told them. In church during a procession, Jacinta was supposed to be strewing flowers, along with Lucy, in the path of the priest who was “holding Jesus.” Jacinta didn’t do it because she never saw Jesus. Lucy had to explain to her later what the Eucharist was, she’d never heard of it.

There’s just no evidence at all for this idea that there were three children “conditioned” to be religious fanatics. These matters were gone into extensively by various clergy at the time and no one in any report I ever came across thought they were anything but normal children. Nor later, during all the things Lucy wrote and the people and family and parents reported when investigated so thoroughly by the Church has anyone ever suggested anything like what you are here. I really cannot see how it makes sense to substitute your ideas about this almost a hundred years later for the judgement of those on the scene during the time of the apparitions and during Lucy’s lifetime.

Now it’s a thing to gave your lunch to other children and completely another to seek occasions to inflict pain on yourself, when you are a child. Adults who want to wear cilices or to self-flagellate themselves are told to do that only under the supervision of a spiritual director. These children were alone and aware that they did something secret and forbidden.

This is simply untrue. No one forbade them to do anything. They certainly kept their secrets. They would never have heard of or imagined “spiritual direction.” And yet, they had the best possible spiritual director: God, through the intervention of Jesus Blessed Mother. I am asking you if all of this is predicated on your personal rejection of the whole Fatima phenomena? Do you think Mary appeared to these children?

That’s why I asked if the consolation was real. How do I “call into question some of the most basic teachings of the Catholic Church”, since the Church says nowhere that little children must seek every occasion to suffer and sacrifice themselves to make reparation for the sins against the Immaculate Heart of Mary?

I wonder why you always leave out the fact that they were asked to make reparation for sinners and offenses against God, not just the Immaculate Heart?

How do you question Church teaching? By asking if the consolation could be real. The Church has always taught the value of suffering, and the fact that these people were very young hardly negates that. And the Church does ask penitential acts from children. Not these specific acts, but children are taught about Lenten sacrifice from a very young age. So, yes, the Church certainly says that the sacrifices of children result in true consolation.

These children are Saints. They were chosen by God in a very particular way. Of course their penances will have a different quality.

I’m not sure anymore what it is you are trying to make me or anyone else reading believe? That there was no miracle at Fatima? That their acts were worthless? That they were only “obsessed” religious fanatics?

 

[vames]

I wonder why you always leave out the fact that they were asked to make reparation for sinners and offenses against God, not just the Immaculate Heart?

I didn’t. I have mentioned it repeatedly. But you can’t choose only one purpose and ignore the other, as long as it’s not only a marginal element in these revelations. So the angel comes to the children and says: You have to sacrifice yourselves for others’ sins. Then Mary comes to the children and says: You have to suffer so as to repair the offenses against ME. Am I really the only one who doubts that the real Virgin Mary, Mother of God, could do such a thing?

This is very different from the Church teachings, i.e. what you say that “children are taught about Lenten sacrifice from a very young age”. Why doesn’t the Church teach children that they must hit their legs with nettles to mortify themselves? Why doesn’t the Church require us to believe in any private revelations? Why doesn’t the Church teach us that God has sent his messengers to tell us that the suffering of little children can bring about the salvation of sinners from Hell and the salvation of the world from a deadly chastisement?

It’s not that I don’t believe that the Virgin Mary could appear to these children or to others. But when I was a child and the priest told us about the wonderful miracles of Lourdes and Fatima, he only mentioned PRAYER - that the Virgin Mary requested the children to PRAY and to tell the sinners (= adults) to REPENT of their sins. Nothing about such mortifications. And nothing about other absurd things attributed to the apparition, like “Our Lady can no longer hold back the arm of her beloved Son from the world. It is necessary to do penance. If people change their ways, Our Lord will still avail the world; but if they do not, the chastisement will come”. So Jesus is a violent man who is so surprised and angered by our sins, that He feels the urge to hit us right now, but her mother tries to hold back his arm. Or maybe she is as angry as Him: “If men do not change their ways, Our Lady will send the world a punishment the like of which has never been seen. It will fall first… upon Spain.”

 

[down_under]

I didn’t. I have mentioned it repeatedly. But you can’t choose only one purpose and ignore the other, as long as it’s not only a marginal element in these revelations. So the angel comes to the children and says: You have to sacrifice yourselves for others’ sins. Then Mary comes to the children and says: You have to suffer so as to repair the offenses against ME. Am I really the only one who doubts that the real Virgin Mary, Mother of God, could do such a thing?

This is very different from the Church teachings, i.e. what you say that “children are taught about Lenten sacrifice from a very young age”. Why doesn’t the Church teach children that they must hit their legs with nettles to mortify themselves? Why doesn’t the Church require us to believe in any private revelations? Why doesn’t the Church teach us that God has sent his messengers to tell us that the suffering of little children can bring about the salvation of sinners from Hell and the salvation of the world from a deadly chastisement?

It’s not that I don’t believe that the Virgin Mary could appear to these children or to others. But when I was a child and the priest told us about the wonderful miracles of Lourdes and Fatima, he only mentioned PRAYER - that the Virgin Mary requested the children to PRAY and to tell the sinners (= adults) to REPENT of their sins. Nothing about such mortifications. And nothing about other absurd things attributed to the apparition, like “Our Lady can no longer hold back the arm of her beloved Son from the world. It is necessary to do penance. If people change their ways, Our Lord will still avail the world; but if they do not, the chastisement will come”. So Jesus is a violent man who is so surprised and angered by our sins, that He feels the urge to hit us right now, but her mother tries to hold back his arm. Or maybe she is as angry as Him: “If men do not change their ways, Our Lady will send the world a punishment the like of which has never been seen. It will fall first… upon Spain.”

As to if you are the only one to believe a thing I would say you are the only one who has responded who has. but I would find it difficult to argue that anything that has transpired at Fatima was against church teaching. All of these quotes can be seen through a catholic lens as it were.
As to punishing the world, frankly given the blatant evil we are surrounded with, I am surprised it has not happened already. Although given the fact that the phrase “of biblical proportions” is a cliché precisely because we have seen things of biblical proportions that have been done is society so often its not even funny. To assume this is not chastisement from God simply because there are other causes is to assume an army could not carry out the will of God because they also got to sack a nation or city. In biblical prophecy this exact thing has happened. Ethnic cleansing comes to mind.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Am I really the only one who doubts that the real Virgin Mary, Mother of God, could do such a thing?

This is a Vatican-approved apparition, the judgement of the Holy See is different from yours. Here is everything Mary said during the Fatima apparitions. I’m not sure what you object to or how it relates to the OP’s question:

miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/messages/fatima_messages.html

May

*“Do not be afraid. I will do you no harm.”

“I am from Heaven.”

“I came to ask you to come here on the thirteenth day for six months at this same time, and then I will tell you who I am and what I want. And afterwards, I will return here a seventh time.”*

Lucia:“Will I go to Heaven?”

“Yes, you will.”

Lucia: “And Jacinta?”

“She also.”

Lucia: “And Francisco? Will he go to Heaven too?”

*“Yes, but first he must say many rosaries.”

"Would you like to offer yourselves to God to accept all the sufferings which He may send to you in reparation for the countless sins by which He is offended and in supplication for the conversion of sinners?*

Lucia: “Yes.”

“Then you will have much to suffer, but the grace of God will be your comfort.”

June

“I want you to come on the thirteenth day of next month and to pray the Rosary every day and I want you to learn to read.”

(Lucia asked for a cure.)

“If she is converted, she will be cured within a year.”

Lucia: “I want you to take us to Heaven.”

“Yes, I will take Francisco and Jacinta soon, but you must remain on earth for some time. Jesus wishes to use you to make me better known and loved. He wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.”

Lucia: “Must I stay here all alone?”

“No, my child, and would that make you suffer? Do not be disheartened. My Immaculate Heart will never abandon you, but will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God.”

July

“I want you to come on the thirteenth day of next month and to continue to pray the Rosary every day in honor of Our Lady of the Rosary, in order to obtain peace for the world and the end of the war for she alone can help.”

Lucia: “I would like to ask who you are and to perform a miracle so that people will believe that you are appearing to us.”

*“Continue to come here every month. In October I will tell you who I am and what I want. And I will perform a miracle so that everyone may see and believe.”

"Sacrifice yourselves for sinners and say often, especially when you make some sacrifice, ‘O my Jesus, this is for love of You, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the offenses committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.’ "*

(Here, the children see a terrifying vision of Hell.)

*"You saw Hell where the souls of poor sinners go. In order to save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If people do what I ask, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.

"The war is going to end. But if people do not stop offending God, another, even worse one will begin in the reign of Pius XI. When you shall see a night illuminated by an unknown light know that this is the great sign that God gives you that He is going to punish the world for its many crimes by means of war, hunger, and persecution of the Church and the Holy Father. To prevent it, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart and the Communion of reparation on the first Saturdays.

"If people attend to my requests, Russia will be converted and the world will have peace. If not, she [Russia] will scatter her errors throughout the world, provoking wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, and various nations will be destroyed.

“In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me; it will be converted, and a certain period of peace will be granted to the world. In Portugal the dogmas of the Faith will always be kept”
*
[At this point Lucia and Jacinta are given the Third Secret that was eventually given to the Pope]. “Do not tell this to anyone. Francisco … yes, you may tell him” [Lucia and Jacinta both saw and heard Our Lady but Francisco only saw the apparitions].

“When you say the Rosary, say after each mystery: O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need.”

Lucia: “Do you want anything more of me?”

“No, today I want nothing else of you.”

August

*“Pray, pray a great deal and make many sacrifices for many souls go to Hell because they have no one to make sacrifices and to pray for them.”

“St. Joseph too will come with the Holy Child to bring peace to the world. Our Lord will also come to bless the people. Our Lady of the Rosary and Our Lady of Sorrows will come too.”*

September

“Continue to pray the Rosary every day in order to obtain the end of the war. In October Our Lord will come, and Our Lady of Sorrows and of Mount Carmel and St. Joseph with the Child Jesus to bless the world. God is pleased with your sacrifices, but He does not want you to sleep with the rope on; wear it only during the day.”

(Lucia asks for more cures):

“Some I will cure, others not. In October I shall perform a miracle so that everyone may believe.”

October

“I am the Lady of the Rosary, I have come to warn the faithful to amend their lives and ask for pardon for their sins. They must not offend Our Lord any more, for He is already too grievously offended by the sins of men. People must say the Rosary. Let them continue saying it everyday.”
“I would like a chapel built here in my honor.”
“The war will end soon.”

 

[vames]

As to punishing the world, frankly given the blatant evil we are surrounded with, I am surprised it has not happened already.

I just don’t know what to think about that. On the one hand, I find much meaning in the history of Sodom and Gomorrah, one of my favorite biblical stories along with the one of the ten virgins with their lamps. In this light, not only the world, but our souls too are such cities that can be spared (or not) if God finds there (or not) those “50 righteous people”. On the other hand, I see that people tend to blame God for “sending” tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, epidemics etc. and rationalize it either by saying that God is unjust-and-cruel or that He is vengeful-and-cruel, so that I doubt that many people really manage to convert themselves out of fear.

 

[vames]

This is a Vatican-approved apparition, the judgement of the Holy See is different from yours.

I know it is a Vatican-approved apparition. I was just pointing out that I didn’t see any explicit endorsement of the idea that children are called to sacrifice themselves by such mortifications. As for the content of the visions, I guess we all know the comment of then-Cardinal Ratzinger:

“Interior vision” is not fantasy but, as we have said, a true and valid means of verification. But it also has its limitations. Even in exterior vision the subjective element is always present. We do not see the pure object, but it comes to us through the filter of our senses, which carry out a work of translation. This is still more evident in the case of interior vision, especially when it involves realities which in themselves transcend our horizon. The subject, the visionary, is still more powerfully involved. He sees insofar as he is able, in the modes of representation and consciousness available to him. In the case of interior vision, the process of translation is even more extensive than in exterior vision, for the subject shares in an essential way in the formation of the image of what appears. He can arrive at the image only within the bounds of his capacities and possibilities. Such visions therefore are never simple "photographs" of the other world, but are influenced by the potentialities and limitations of the perceiving subject.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[down_under]

I just don’t know what to think about that. On the one hand, I find much meaning in the history of Sodom and Gomorrah, one of my favorite biblical stories along with the one of the ten virgins with their lamps. In this light, not only the world, but our souls too are such cities that can be spared (or not) if God finds there (or not) those “50 righteous people”. On the other hand, I see that people tend to blame God for “sending” tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, epidemics etc. and rationalize it either by saying that God is unjust-and-cruel or that He is vengeful-and-cruel, so that I doubt that many people really manage to convert themselves out of fear.

Strange we are already much worse today than Sodom and Gomorrah were.
As to blaming God for natural disaster. lots of biblical prophesy surround natural disaster. God is not so much unjust and cruel as Justice. Mercy goes a long way, but God will not be mocked. It is Gods mercy that has kept us going this long. The infinite sacrifice of the mass on the alters of the world. (body blood soul and divinity of Jesus), but make no mistake Sodom and Gomorrah have nothing on modern day society and our much greater wrongs.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I know it is a Vatican-approved apparition. I was just pointing out that I didn’t see any explicit endorsement of the idea that children are called to sacrifice themselves by such mortifications. As for the content of the visions, I guess we all know the comment of then-Cardinal Ratzinger:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

I find this a total non-sequitor.

I’m asking forthe last time for a simple straightforward answer: what is your belief about Fatima? It never happened and they made it up? Something happened but you think the source is not God? The Holy See approves the apparitions as worthy of belief and you disagree? You’ve attacked Fatima from every possible angle. I have no idea what point you can possibly be trying to make. So please state your belief in clear terms.

 

[vames]

The Holy See approves the apparitions as worthy of belief and you disagree?

This thread, comment #33:
You: But consider Mary at Fatima asking three children to take on suffering to expiate the sins of hellbound adults. And they did.
Me: You are free to believe this particular bit of this private revelation. I don’t.

As I already said in comment #46, it’s not that I don’t believe that the Virgin Mary could appear to these children or to anybody else to send a message that people must repent for their sins and to pray for the conversion of sinners and for peace. As this is how the message of Fatima was described to us by the priest when we were children, I used to believe in the reality of the apparition and I still want to believe it - after all, this part is what the Church considers today, too, as relevant in Fatima and all the other approved apparitions. But I think other parts of the message are the fruit of the imagination of the children and of various people who have later “embellished” the message. I’m not interested at all in any speculations about demonic apparitions, if that’s why you ask me. But it’s no big deal if I agree or disagree with any private revelation. Catholics aren’t bound to believe in any private revelation, not even in the ones approved by the Holy See.

 

[Julia_Mae]

But it’s no big deal if I agree or disagree with any private revelation. Catholics aren’t bound to believe in any private revelation, not even in the ones approved by the Holy See.

That’s correct. But it is a big deal if a Catholic tries to undermine authority and judgement of the Holy See and the Magisterium. You privately can choose not to believe. This isn’t private.

So, I’ll withdraw in order not to tempt you into sin. God bless you abundantly.

 

[vames]

Fair enough. Thanks for talking with me and God bless you too!

 

[atheistgirl]

What I’ve gathered so far is some think it’s ok, and some think not - that is, I should seek out the medical help I need, because I have a duty to preserve my own life as long as possible.

I think it was Julia Mae that brought up the interesting point of the persons mental wellbeing.

I think that’s fair - I would have serious questions to ask somebody who decided to forgo easily available medical help, and decide instead to suffer and possibly die instead.

If we assume in the majority of cases, to do nothing, and suffer and die, needlessly, would be morally wrong, what of a parent who shares the persons view on suffering.

If a parent had the means and resources to pay for the help needed and offer all assistance needed to ensure they had the best possible outcome, but failed to do so, out of respect for their daughters wish to offer up their suffering, and most likely die in the process, would that parent be morally wrong here?

Sarah x

 

[down_under]

What I’ve gathered so far is some think it’s ok, and some think not - that is, I should seek out the medical help I need, because I have a duty to preserve my own life as long as possible.

I think it was Julia Mae that brought up the interesting point of the persons mental wellbeing.

I think that’s fair - I would have serious questions to ask somebody who decided to forgo easily available medical help, and decide instead to suffer and possibly die instead.

If we assume in the majority of cases, to do nothing, and suffer and die, needlessly, would be morally wrong, what of a parent who shares the persons view on suffering.

If a parent had the means and resources to pay for the help needed and offer all assistance needed to ensure they had the best possible outcome, but failed to do so, out of respect for their daughters wish to offer up their suffering, and most likely die in the process, would that parent be morally wrong here?

Sarah x

There is only one tiny problem with the scenario in that medically she has the right to autonomy. She has the right to be given all the information and make her own decision. While her mother may offer and argue that the daughter should get said available procedure, at the end of the day, the daughter must decide what to do.

So, in response, if the parent said there peace and made there arguments (as the father of 4 kids I would make mine more than once), if the daughter said NO then No it remains. There is one loop hole where as soon as the person looses consciousness the next of ken get to make decisions for her and can now (unless written stipulation is made by the daughter before hand) ask for the procedure, granted it may be to late to help.

I don’t know of this happening in the real world. It is an interesting hypothetical situation however.

 

[mrajax]

I understand that I have a duty to keep myself as fit and healthy as I can be, in body, mind, and in the case of a believer, soul.

I also understand it is a sin to take one’s own life.

I further understand there is a school of thought that says suffering, offered to God, can be redemptive.

If I understood correctly, and I might not have so please correct my misunderstanding, I have a duty to do all in my control to stay well, honoring the body as the temple of the Holy Spirit as such, but I have no moral duty to undergo extraordinary medical intervention and my refusal to do so would not be considered attempted suicide.

If that’s the case, there is nothing wrong with me refusing to have for example, a radical hysterectomy, indicated by the presence of cancer.

I could, if I chose, decide to ‘‘offer this up’’ to God, and leave it entirely in His hands as to whether or not I heal, without the intervention of modern medicine or drugs.

And if I took that path, I would not be doing anything wrong, according to the Catholic Church.

And the physical and mental suffering I would endure until my death (if I wasn’t healed or went into remission) would be considered redemptive suffering, assuming again I have that state of mind regarding offering my suffering up to God for the salvation of souls.

Is that correct?

Sarah x

No, it flipping isn’t because you shall not temp the Lord your God by letting yourself die and expect him to recieve your ‘suffering’ as a sacrifice. It’s an understatement to call it a senseless sacrifice because if you tried healing yourself and finding medical attention, you’d be showing that you want to stay alive to do more good in this world and suffer more for God.

Has there ever been a saint that witheld medical attention form himself? (and no Madre Teresa doesn’t count as she isn’t a saint yet. No, I don’t want to start a Madre Teresa debate, do it somewhere else please) Saint Gemma sought medical attention, Catherine Emmerich herself said it was important to seek it, St Lydwine of Schiedam whose sufferings are indescrible sought medical attention throughout her life and still suffered a ton and whenever someone who lives ina monastery gets sick, he is given the ebst emdicala ttention possible. The Carmelites who are practically vegeterians actually give meat to anyone of their members to eat. They don’t deny them as a sacrifice.

Thing is, this thread is pointless and was only made to spark debate for the sake of it. Nuff said. The will to live is stornger than anything else and the saints aren’t stupid. Get that.

 

[atheistgirl]

Thing is, this thread is pointless

Please don’t feel obliged to contribute to the discussion then

There are 645,020 other threads to amuse you.

Bye.

Sarah x

 

[mrajax]

Please don’t feel obliged to contribute to the discussion then

There are 645,020 other threads to amuse you.

Bye.

Sarah x

I did it on my own and have engaged in a ton of other stupid debates that made me feel nothing but depressed. However, someone has to make a reply now and then in order to keep normal people from falling into sin or heresy and to keep them from getting pointlessly depressed over nothing. Thats all I did and if I didn’t point that out, people would still make a big deal out of it. Meh, whatever, I did what I had to do.