SUfficient Grace? Where?

[Gregory_I]

Where in the scriptures or in the Fathers or in any of the ecumenical councils do we have this notion of a grace that is called “Sufficient”, that is, it has everything necessary to achieve its end, but it cannot be effected unless one receives efficacious grace; So sufficient grace is sufficient in name, but not in fact?

Efficacious grace is sufficient, and it is not given to all; Therefore in what sense do all have sufficient grace?

ANd in what sense does God really wish for every single human to be saved? Can GOd wish something that does not happen?

 

[paduard]

It would appear to me that one is ‘offered’ efficacious grace; whereupon free will either acts to accept it or not. If one accepts then efficacious grace is ‘given’.

 

[Waiting]

Where in the scriptures or in the Fathers or in any of the ecumenical councils do we have this notion of a grace that is called “Sufficient”, that is, it has everything necessary to achieve its end, but it cannot be effected unless one receives efficacious grace; So sufficient grace is sufficient in name, but not in fact?

Efficacious grace is sufficient, and it is not given to all; Therefore in what sense do all have sufficient grace?

ANd in what sense does God really wish for every single human to be saved? Can GOd wish something that does not happen?

To my knowledge, there is no grace that is called Sufficient. There are many kinds of grace. When God gives you the grace to accomplish something, He gives that grace to you in sufficient quantity to do the work He expects of you. Mary was given efficatious grace, that is, sufficient grace to help her remain sinless throughout her lifetime.

 

[Gregory_I]

It would appear to me that one is ‘offered’ efficacious grace; whereupon free will either acts to accept it or not. If one accepts then efficacious grace is ‘given’.

But the will cannot assent to the call of Grace unless grace precedes it: Prevenient grace. In other words, all acts of the will that are oriented toward GOd, are GOd acting in that person:

SO, in what sense can all be given sufficient grace, if it is a bare and empty thing unable to effect any change?

 

[TimothyH]

ANd in what sense does God really wish for every single human to be saved? Can GOd wish something that does not happen?

I think God wishes everyone to be saved and in fact invites everyone to be saved.

*"The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come. A second time he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those Invited: “Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast.”’ Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come. Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.’ The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike, and the hall was filled with guests. (Matthew 22:2-10)*Willing us or wishing us to be saved and then forcing us to believe in him, love him and obey him so that his will conforms to actual events would be more like a totalitarian dictatorship or slavery.

 

[Gregory_I]

I think God wishes everyone to be saved and in fact invites everyone to be saved.

"The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come. A second time he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those Invited: “Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast.”’ Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come. Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.’ The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike, and the hall was filled with guests. (Matthew 22:2-10)Willing us or wishing us to be saved and then forcing us to believe in him, love him and obey him so that his will conforms to actual events would be more like a totalitarian dictatorship or slavery.

BUt the will cannot assent to God unless his grace enables it, so those who are ignorant, or those who refuse , refuse and are ignorant because God does not will to enlighten them.

THen how can he will all to be saved? How is grace sufficient for all when it’s not sufficient?

 

[fhansen]

Yes, that’s basically the meaning-and the danger- of our free will, that we can even oppose Gods’ will.

 

[Gregory_I]

Yes, that’s basically the meaning-and the danger- of our free will, that we can even oppose Gods’ will.

God’s will is sovereign and cannot be opposed. If he wills some to come to him, they infallibly will, not out of necessity, but in conformity with the freedom of the will.

Now, The grace that effects conversion is efficacious grace. It is called Intrinsically efficacious because it actually MAKES the change in the heart occur and elevates the will from slavery to freedom so that a man can choose God.

Man depends upon this free and unmerited gift of grace to be saved.

But not all ARE saved. And if this is what is necessary, how is it that all are said to have “Sufficient grace” from God?

Christ died for all men. He won a superabundance of grace that could save all men.

But it doesn’t.

SO how then does each man receive sufficient grace if it is not efficacious in each man?

 

[fhansen]

God’s will is sovereign and cannot be opposed. If he wills some to come to him, they infallibly will, not out of necessity, but in conformity with the freedom of the will.

Now, The grace that effects conversion is efficacious grace. It is called Intrinsically efficacious because it actually MAKES the change in the heart occur and elevates the will from slavery to freedom so that a man can choose God.

Man depends upon this free and unmerited gift of grace to be saved.

But not all ARE saved. And if this is what is necessary, how is it that all are said to have “Sufficient grace” from God?

Christ died for all men. He won a superabundance of grace that could save all men.

But it doesn’t.

SO how then does each man receive sufficient grace if it is not efficacious in each man?

If Gods will can’t be opposed then He’s the author of all sin in the world.

 

[Gregory_I]

WHy do you conclude that? Man has the ability to choose to sin, and sin lies in man’s wicked will. THe will is in bondage to sin, but it retains enough freedom for justice.

So is grace sufficient when he does not give everyone what they need to be saved?

 

[fhansen]

WHy do you conclude that? Man has the ability to choose to sin, and sin lies in man’s wicked will. THe will is in bondage to sin, but it retains enough freedom for justice.

So is grace sufficient when he does not give everyone what they need to be saved?

So if mans will “retains enough freedom for justice”, how is it that he can’t oppose Gods will? And how was it that Adam & Eve sinned?

 

[Gregory_I]

God’s will can be resisted but not overcome is what I meant.

If GOd wills a person to be saved, they will infallibly be saved. They can delay the action, resist it, or fight against it their whole life, but eventually, they will be saved. THis means grace is RESISTABLE but still infallibly and intrinsically efficacious. THis is what St. Augustine and Aquinas Taught.

But Since this only pertains to those whom God chooses, how can we say he gives sufficient grace to all when he clearly does not choose all?

 

[fhansen]

God’s will can be resisted but not overcome is what I meant.

If GOd wills a person to be saved, they will infallibly be saved. They can delay the action, resist it, or fight against it their whole life, but eventually, they will be saved. THis means grace is RESISTABLE but still infallibly and intrinsically efficacious. THis is what St. Augustine and Aquinas Taught.

But Since this only pertains to those whom God chooses, how can we say he gives sufficient grace to all when he clearly does not choose all?

Well, I admittedly don’t understand all the arguments but Catholics don’t believe in determinism or double predestination so the freedom of the will has to be preserved through it all…somehow. In any case I don’t think any of the attempts to resolve this can be totally satisfactory.

 

[Gregory_I]

Well, I admittedly don’t understand all the arguments but Catholics don’t believe in determinism or double predestination so the freedom of the will has to be preserved through it all…somehow. In any case I don’t think any of the attempts to resolve this can be totally satisfactory.

I do not think we can have exhaustive knowledge by any means.

I think we can know enough to not call a thing by the wrong name though.

If God gives all sufficient grace, and it is incapable of saving anyone or effecting any change soever, in what way is it sufficient? And why should it be called sufficient?

 

[fhansen]

I do not think we can have exhaustive knowledge by any means.

I think we can know enough to not call a thing by the wrong name though.

If God gives all sufficient grace, and it is incapable of saving anyone or effecting any change soever, in what way is it sufficient? And why should it be called sufficient?

The distinction between these graces is more of a conceptual one than an actual one, I think. It’s the same distinction-and quandary- we arrive at by saying God predestines some to heaven but no one to hell. I think I might be more comfortable saying-although I may be out of line with dogma here-that no grace is 100% efficacious-even though God could make it so-but instead allows our wills the freedom to choose right to the end-even if it means hell, which, of course, some apparently do choose. So Augustine could say,

It is the grace of God that helps the wills of men; and when they are not helped by it, the reason is in themselves, not in God.

 

[Gregory_I]

But the question still stands, how can a grace be considered sufficient that is incapable of accomplishing anything without another grace; the one that really matters; Intrinsically efficacious grace?

 

[hazcompat]

But the question still stands, how can a grace be considered sufficient that is incapable of accomplishing anything without another grace; the one that really matters; Intrinsically efficacious grace?

perhaps they are of a differing order? One enables the other?

peace

 

[Gregory_I]

THat is what the THomists teach. But Why would the grace of a lesser order be dubbed “sufficient” when it is not?

God gives grace to whomever he wills.

But why does he need to give “ALL” sufficient grace, especially when it doesn’t do anything on its own?

If all truly received a grace that was sufficient for conversion, all would be converted, because grace is intrinsically, and infallibly efficacious.

BUt they’re not.

SO what does that tell us about “sufficient” grace?

 

[hazcompat]

I meant sequence. One is necessary(prime), the second cannot be seen without the first.

peace

 

[hazcompat]

THat is what the THomists teach. But Why would the grace of a lesser order be dubbed “sufficient” when it is not?

God gives grace to whomever he wills.

But why does he need to give “ALL” sufficient grace, especially when it doesn’t do anything on its own?

If all truly received a grace that was sufficient for conversion, all would be converted, because grace is intrinsically, and infallibly efficacious.

BUt they’re not.

SO what does that tell us about “sufficient” grace?

Grace can be hindered,and even refused. Sanctifying grace is available to all. Even if all choose it, our will can be disordered. Actual (sufficient) grace helps return to sanctity.

peace