Suggesting Changes to the TLM is Absurd!

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Didn’t the Council of Trent make the TLM The Mass of the Church? I believe the Council of Trent stated if anyone makes changes to The Mass of The Church, let them be anathema. It should probably be left alone. With that said, putting the TLM in the vernacular at Vatican 2, instead of creating the NO would have been better for The Church. God has his plan, and it was probably this way to see all the errors of the fruitless Second Vatican Council, that is why it was a pastoral council, and not a doctrinal council as the previous twenty councils were. Dominus Vobiscum
You don’t imagine that was addressed to those WITHOUT the proper authority who might make changes to the Mass on their own initiative? You believe that Trent and the Pope Pius bound future popes against making changes in the liturgy? That’s several pre-Vatican II popes, then, that fell under an anathema.

It’s rather obvious that Trent did not intend that.
 
All I’ve suggested is the TLM, with a few minor changes that would not effect its nature, in the vernacular. I think it would become even more widespread. I am confident that the Holy See is seriously considering your official addresses to them with regards to this.
:doh2: **This was already accomplished by the Second Vatican Council and the NO-service by copying much out of the 1549 Heretical Cramner Anglican Prayerbook.**Also if I may be so bold to ask, what really is your function on the Traditional forum? I thought you left for good?🤷
Part of the reason I’m here is diaglogue and part of the reason I’m here is to keep misinformation from people such as yourself being proclaimed as the Gospel. You’re FACTUALLY wrong on what the Church says now AND has said in the past on so many issues that the danger of you misleading the innocent SPIRITUALLY is very great. People have an obligation to keep those bent on misleading others from doing so. This is exactly what it is many having telling you and of your agenda. It is in fact 'YOU’ that is determined to mislead others, put spin on facts, and The Traditionalists have an obligation to stop your anti-Christian like agenda.
** It seems you are determined to even go against the Holy See to get rid of the TLM. :bigyikes:
What is even worse is you do not realize that. :confused:** The dramatic histrionics in which you engage are very easily seen through. It is, again, simply an example of a McCarthy mindset. You think if you say something enough times, it will be true Well, That is funny because if anyone takes a look at your 1000000000+ posts they can determine how redundant you have been. .
It’s a childish ploy.Yes I agree you are using this childish ploy, which of course is verified by the number of posts you have accumulated (only a childish ploy can have that much time)
I do NOT wish to get rid of the TLM.All the traditionlists will agree that you have an unorthodox way of displaying that. Again this only further proves how blinded the modernist movement is.
It is and it will be perfectly legitimate to ask of the Holy See to allow the Tridentine to be offered in the vernacular.I am sure your 1000’s of letters to the Holy See of this request are being viewed and should reach fulfillment. Not.
But if it bothers you, you can always put me on ignore.**Not to worry, you are no bother.
 
The key here is understanding organic growth.

Yes, the mass can be changed so that it is used in the vernacular.

But it isn’t a question of can the mass be in the vernacular, but should the mass be in the vernacular.

As i’ve argued in my previous post, the mass should NOT change to the vernacular. It would not be a positive change. It isn’t question of preference either, but a question of what will better serve Holy Mother Church. I firmly believe that Latin will better serve the Church, and that the vernacular is the lesser of the two options.
Why? Because Latin is a dead language and more precise and any translation would be a corruption? I don’t see how that is helpful, UNLESS God needs it to be in Latin, because the laity are STILL going to get a corrupt translation (if translations are, by their nature, corrupt).

I firmly believe that Mass in the vernacular will well-serve the faithful.
 
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/viewpost.gif
* All I’ve suggested is the TLM, with a few minor changes that would not effect its nature, in the vernacular. I think it would become even more widespread. I am confident that the Holy See is seriously considering your official addresses to them with regards to this.

I have not written to the Holy See. I have read a letter that Cardinal Ratzinger addressed to a layman in which he stated that the old Mass could be celebrated in the vernacular. So I’m confident that the idea is not without its merits.
*
 
Organic change = Traditional
Freezing the Mass in time = Non-Traditional

I am not advocating changing the EF of the Mass, but let’s not eliminate the possibility of future modifications as various customs develop.
 
Seeing how ICEL has worked so far, I can only fathom what kind of translation they would make of the TLM. It’s not that I believe the TLM cannot be in any other language, it’s that I believe it shouldn’t. Besides I think many, many people would leave the Church over this issue.
 
**This is exactly what it is many having telling you and of your agenda. It is in fact ‘YOU’ that is determined to mislead others, put spin on facts, and The Traditionalists have an obligation to stop your anti-Christian like agenda.

I’m not entirely certain how to address this, as I’m not certain the first is even a complete sentence. The fact of the matter is that, by and large, I’ve only repeated what the Church has said (the vernacular Tridentine is only what I think that the Church will permit someday). However, it’s easy to refute what you say about facts, not to mention your McCarthy techniques. I invite anyone who is interested to examine this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=190738

It’s ample evidence of your utter inability to deal (and deal charitably) with FACTS. It’s ample evidence that your understanding is simply the spin that others have managed to convince YOU of, and that your understanding is not based on historical, academic fact (this doesn’t apply to all traditionalists). Further, this demonstrates your crude willingness to engage in techniques that attempt to overwhelm your opponent with verbiage that has nothing to do with the argument at hand and to again engage in the McCarthyesque technique of painting with a broad enough brush that you hope will vilify your opponent. This is your only hope, because your facts don’t add up, but it is most un-Christian (which means I hardly need comment on your remark about my “un-Christian” agenda).
**
 
Well, That is funny because if anyone takes a look at your 1000000000+ posts they can determine how redundant you have been. .

And you speak of spin? Of misleading people?!?! You might think about looking at the number of my posts again.
 
I have not written to the Holy See. I have read a letter that Cardinal Ratzinger addressed to a layman in which he stated that the old Mass could be celebrated in the vernacular. So I’m confident that the idea is not without its merits.
Why would you want the TLM in the vernacular, since most who attend the Pauline mass would claim that essentially it is the same mass (as TLM)? Hence you may attend the Pauline mass if eager for the vernacular. Seems to be, if I may say in all politeness, oxymoronic in nature.

I think one of the reasons most go to TLM is of course for the Eucharist, Love of God, Love of Mass, etc., but also because it is in the Latin.

Hope this helps.
 
Why would you want the TLM in the vernacular, since most who attend the Pauline mass would claim that essentially it is the same mass (as TLM)? Hence you may attend the Pauline mass if eager for the vernacular. Seems to be, if I may say in all politeness, oxymoronic in nature.

I think one of the reasons most go to TLM is of course for the Eucharist, Love of God, Love of Mass, etc., but also because it is in the Latin.

Hope this helps.
They offer the same Holy Sacrifice, but as traditionalists tell you, they aren’t the same. Compare the two in the vernacular, side by side. Very different.

In the vernacular, the Tridentine’s prose is wonderful! Compare the offertories, for example. “Receive, Holy Lord, God Almighty and Everlasting, this unblemished host which I, Your unworthy servant, offer to You, My Living and True God” beats “Blessed are, O Lord God, King of the Universe” all hollow.
 
I’m not entirely certain how to address this, as I’m not certain the first is even a complete sentence.
I am not advocating what was said, but you must be humble and remember that English may not be the first language for all. Of course it could also be a typo. Nevertheless, you are not being kind and this is not the attitude of a Christian.

The reason I state this is not to be critical or judgmental, but only to remind everyone including myself, that we must retain what Christ taught us. Even with all the great knowledge of Catholicism that one may possess, as an arsenal for discussions, sins must be realized.

The Catholic Encyclopedia and Summa Theologica have great discussions on sins.
 
Seeing how ICEL has worked so far, I can only fathom what kind of translation they would make of the TLM. It’s not that I believe the TLM cannot be in any other language, it’s that I believe it shouldn’t. Besides I think many, many people would leave the Church over this issue.
I think that we could simply use the translation that exists. But I’m not talking about not having the TLM IN Latin at all. I’m talking about a possible future where in every parish there would be only one form, the Tridentine, offered in both Latin and the Vernacular.

Many want us to return to an all-Latin Mass. If we did, many, many more might leave the Church than if the situation were reveresed. Do you worry about those who would leave the Church over what amounts to a non-essential (because Latin is NOT essential to our salvation)?
 
I am not advocating what was said, but you must be humble and remember that English may not be the first language for all. Of course it could also be a typo. Nevertheless, you are not being kind and this is not the attitude of a Christian.

The reason I state this is not to be critical or judgmental, but only to remind everyone including myself, that we must retain what Christ taught us. Even with all the great knowledge of Catholicism that one may possess, as an arsenal for discussions, sins must be realized.

The Catholic Encyclopedia and Summa Theologica have great discussions on sins.
I note you do not take TCOB1 for the same errors against kindness, but I will take what you say to heart.
 
I do NOT wish to get rid of the TLM.**All the traditionlists will agree that you have an unorthodox way of displaying that. Again this only further proves how blinded the modernist movement is.

This is, again, where you are confused. I’m not a modernist. The desire for the vernacular is in no way “modernist.” Modernism advocates change for the sake of change. I don’t advocate that at all. I don’t call you a Jansenist, but we can revisit that possibility if you want to persist in mislabeling people as modernists.
**
 
I think that we could simply use the translation that exists. But I’m not talking about not having the TLM IN Latin at all. I’m talking about a possible future where in every parish there would be only one form, the Tridentine, offered in both Latin and the Vernacular.
I agree that that would be better than what we currently have, as the NO translation is terrible. Of course the Vernacular change would be the only change that should be allowed, ie: all rubrics must follow the 62’ rubrics. No EMHC, no altar girls, communion at the rail only, etc. I thought you advocated changing all TLM’s to English. Of course I think that an “English” TLM should retain certain parts of the liturgy in Latin , and should have the Kyrie in Greek. This would be more in line with what Vatican II really taught on the liturgy. Of course, I think every parish should be required by Rome, to have the TLM also in Latin, for those of use who love that language.
 
I think that we could simply use the translation that exists. But I’m not talking about not having the TLM IN Latin at all. I’m talking about a possible future where in every parish there would be only one form, the Tridentine, offered in both Latin and the Vernacular.
JKirk,

Just a thought. Would you agree that it might be easier to move the NO towards the goal of adopting the TLM in the vernacular rather than adapting the TLM to large changes? For instance, your priest could start introducing the elements of the TLM such as the Prayers at the Foot of the altar. He would say them in English and the people would make the responses. As time went on, the Mass could resemble the TLM but with an audible Canon and in the language of the people. The things that many consider redundant, like the Confiteor or the Last Gospel would never be adopted.

I would think this is a more realistic goal for you than trying to convince us traditionalists to mess with the TLM.
 
I note you do not take TCOB1 for the same errors against kindness, but I will take what you say to heart.
It was meant for all. If one is unkind to you should you also be unkind to them?

**St Matthew 23:12 **

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

**St Luke 6:28-37 **
Bless them that curse you and pray for them that calumniate you.
And to him that striketh thee on the one cheek, offer also the other.
And him that taketh away from thee thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also…
And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner.
And if you love them that love you, what thanks are to you? For sinners also love those that love them.
And if you do good to them who do good to you, what thanks are to you? For sinners also do this
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.Judge not: and you shall not be judged. Condemn not: and you shall not be condemned. Forgive: and you shall be forgiven
 
This is not the case, really. English is the dominant language throughout the entire world.
Not the extent and manner that Latin was ( In any case, you aren’t arguing for English to become the language of the Church or liturgy - so I won’t spend any time on this.
Either Pope Hadrian II or John VIII wrote, at the time that Sts. Cyril and Methodius rec. permission to translate the liturgy into Slavonic, that all tongues were created by God to give him praise.
This is all very true - in the end though this had the effect of creating an entirely different rite. For some Orthodox Churches - Slavonic is there equivalent to our Latin.

My point being, Slavonic unifies the liturgy for the Slavs - it serves to unite the Church for them.

Also, lets not forget that the Slavs live in Eastern Europe … this is outside the domain of the Western Church - there’s a reason why they have the Byzantine liturgy rather than the Roman liturgy. We are discussing Latin as the dominant language for the Roman liturgy - nothing else.

And Yes. of course all tongues should worship God - Yet at the same time it is more beneficial for the Church to have Latin as a universal language. Unity is a very important aspect to a Church that is big as ours. As I said before - ONE, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Unity is a big factor, it is one of the marks of the Church - thus why not aid the Church with a unifying language.
Because there are benefits to people being able to understand the Mass in the language in which they think and reason. And we aren’t talking about using common, street language. I don’t think there is anything vulgar about the English of Shakespeare, Donne, Tolkien, Lewis, etc.
Vulgar as in the common language - the language of our schoolyards, businesses, homes etc. It does us a great service to put aside a language for liturgy - to have a language associated with higher learning/prayer helps us to get into a prayerful mindset.
I know that I only associate Latin with the Church - and so when I use it or hear it - it actually assists me in my devoution because the only thoughts have with that lanugage are those that are used for devoution.
No one has ever answered this adequately: Does GOD need it to be in Lain? If He does, where has He indicated this? As it is, it seems an odd disconnect to me (still) to have a priest that speaks the native tongue of his congregation standing before that congregation and addressing God in a foreign tongue while the congregation follows along with a translation of what he’s saying into their native tongue.
God does not need it to be in Latin. If He did every single vernacular NO liturgy I’ve gone to has be invalid - which is NOT the case. For me this isn’t the argument, the liturgy can change - I just think that it shouldn’t.

Now, you seem to focus on understanding - we both know that you can still understand and follow the liturgy via translations.Yes, it does make following along more difficult BUT it is worth taking the effort because of all the benefits that Latin has.

Using translations is a minor setback compared to all the benefits that Latin gives us.
Why? Because Latin is a dead language and more precise and any translation would be a corruption? I don’t see how that is helpful, UNLESS God needs it to be in Latin, because the laity are STILL going to get a corrupt translation (if translations are, by their nature, corrupt).
I firmly believe that Mass in the vernacular will well-serve the faithful.
And I firmly believe otherwise.

Now, I did not say that any translation would be a corruption. If that were the case, I wouldn’t be looking at the right side of my missal which has the English translation.

It is helpful however, by providing a standard. As any living language progresses in time, its vocabulary aquires new words, and previous words have altered meanings, grammar often changes as well. Latin counters this problem by acting as a sort of standard - No matter how our living languages change, we can always go back to the Latin to see the exact meaning of a text - we can even compare Latin to english in all its stages because Latin texts have been translated into every form of English past or modern.

We are all aware that our current translation of the NO mass could use a bit of cleaning up. How do we even know this? because we have the Latin! Without the Latin, we would have no standard to compare this too, and may be unaware of the problem.​

Anyway, if you haven’t already, I suggest you read Veterum Sapientia. Pope John XXIII (the same pope who started VAT II), was calling for a revitalization of this language! Why aren’t we fulfilling this calling? He also explains why Latin is superior. I refer you to his arguments - I sincerely think that you will have a hard time countering his overall argument.
 
Regardless of the language of the liturgy, let’s not forget that Latin is the language of the Church.

If we practice and use the language in our liturgy, it will help to revitalize this language and see the importance of it.
 
Didn’t the Council of Trent make the TLM The Mass of the Church? I believe the Council of Trent stated if anyone makes changes to The Mass of The Church, let them be anathema. It should probably be left alone.
Actually, the Council of Trent prohibited the creation of new rites. And I’ll bet most attending Vatican II knew this as Vatican II did not call for any new rite.
Canon XIII.—Si quis dixerit, receptos et approbates Ecclesiæ Catholicæ ritus, in solemni sacramentorum administratione adhiberi consuetos, aut contemni, aut sine peccato a ministris pro libito omitti, aut in novos alios per quemcumque ecclesiarum pastorem mutari posse: anathema sit.
Canon XIII.—If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones: let him be anathema.
Maybe a better translation would have been “by any pastor of the church whomsoever”?
 
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