Sui Juris Churches and Parallel Episcopal Jurisdictions

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I have trouble with the whole concept of separate “sui juris churches” existing within the Catholic Church. It seems much like Protestant denominationalism.

It seems to me that one should go to one’s local parish, irrespective of rite. And there oughtn’t to be parallel episcopal jurisdictions. That is a wound in the unity of the Church.

Edwin
 
I have trouble with the whole concept of separate “sui juris churches” existing within the Catholic Church. It seems much like Protestant denominationalism.
Not for anything, but I find that to be rather offensive. What it says is that we Orientals and Easterners have no right to even exist. Sorry, but we have as much right to exist as does the “Catholic” Church. I could say a lot more, but for the purpose of this forum, I’ll leave it at that.
It seems to me that one should go to one’s local parish, irrespective of rite.
Even in the early centuries of the Church, this was not done. A bishop was responsible for the spiritual welfare of his flock, and if there was a community of “foreigners” who adhered to the practices of a different Church, they were to be accommodate, and if that meant importing a priest to see to their needs, so be it.
And there oughtn’t to be parallel episcopal jurisdictions. That is a wound in the unity of the Church.
A look at the infamous Bishop Ireland affair might be in order here.
 
I have trouble with the whole concept of separate “sui juris churches” existing within the Catholic Church. It seems much like Protestant denominationalism.

It seems to me that one should go to one’s local parish, irrespective of rite. And there oughtn’t to be parallel episcopal jurisdictions. That is a wound in the unity of the Church.

Edwin
Wow. Protestants split and divide churches based on conflicting ideologies of both major and minor issues and interpretations.

Eastern and Western Catholics, through different expressions, are still united in beliefs, hence the “one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.”

Perhaps I’m over simplifying a bit, but are you suggesting that the Oriental and Eastern Churches should have stayed in their own national countries and those who moved to the West were to assimilate into the local RCC?

I find that notion highly elitist and ethnocentric.
 
I have trouble with the whole concept of separate “sui juris churches” existing within the Catholic Church. It seems much like Protestant denominationalism.

It seems to me that one should go to one’s local parish, irrespective of rite. And there oughtn’t to be parallel episcopal jurisdictions. That is a wound in the unity of the Church.

Edwin
Why should I go to the local parish church, when it is a different rite than my own–a rite which I find not to be conducive to my own spirituality?
 
I have trouble with the whole concept of separate “sui juris churches” existing within the Catholic Church. It seems much like Protestant denominationalism.
Edwin,

You are mistaken. The Particular, or “Sui Iuris” Churches are nothing like Protestant denominationalism.

These Particular Catholic Churches are distinct from one another in their ritual traditions (theology, liturgy, spirituality, and disciplines), but are united in the Apostolic Faith, the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments), and the Holy Hierarchy (Pope and Bishops in full communion). They mirror the Holy Trinity in the unity of one God, and the distinctiveness of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Protestant denominations are neither united in Faith, Sacraments, or Hierarchy.

God bless,

Rony
 
Wow. Protestants split and divide churches based on conflicting ideologies of both major and minor issues and interpretations.

Eastern and Western Catholics, through different expressions, are still united in beliefs, hence the “one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.”

Perhaps I’m over simplifying a bit, but are you suggesting that the Oriental and Eastern Churches should have stayed in their own national countries and those who moved to the West were to assimilate into the local RCC?

I find that notion highly elitist and ethnocentric.
Perhaps what he meant by “separate” is compartmentalized instead.
 
Edwin,

You are mistaken. The Particular, or “Sui Iuris” Churches are nothing like Protestant denominationalism.

These Particular Catholic Churches are distinct from one another in their ritual traditions (theology, liturgy, spirituality, and disciplines), but are united in the Apostolic Faith, the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments), and the Holy Hierarchy (Pope and Bishops in full communion). They mirror the Holy Trinity in the unity of one God, and the distinctiveness of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Protestant denominations are neither united in Faith, Sacraments, or Hierarchy.

God bless,

Rony
This was a charitable and erudite post. Thanks!
 
I have trouble with the whole concept of separate “sui juris churches” existing within the Catholic Church. It seems much like Protestant denominationalism.

It seems to me that one should go to one’s local parish, irrespective of rite. And there oughtn’t to be parallel episcopal jurisdictions. That is a wound in the unity of the Church.

Edwin
I agree with what others have already said. This would be deeply offensive save the lack of knowledge it represents.

We belong of course to Churches not just parishes. The liturgical rite of a Church is only one significant element.
CCEO Canon 28 §1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris.
 
The liturgical rite of a Church is only one significant element.
I think this about summarizes the majority of the misunderstandings and disrespect towards the Eastern Churches from the West.
 
Not for anything, but I find that to be rather offensive. What it says is that we Orientals and Easterners have no right to even exist.
Why do you assume this? Or rather, I know historically why you assume it, but there is no theological reason to do so. You are reacting to the vile way Eastern Christians have been treated in the past. Fair and good.

I’d be quite happy, personally, if anywhere where Eastern Christians now live was declared “Eastern” territory. I know that’s not going to happen, and I think diversity even within a local area is good and is the right way to go. But I say this to demonstrate that I’m not attacking Eastern Christianity at all. If one had to disappear, I’d much rather it was Latin Christianity. (Again, I’m not saying that I think Latin Christianity will disappear or that I want it to.)
Even in the early centuries of the Church, this was not done. A bishop was responsible for the spiritual welfare of his flock, and if there was a community of “foreigners” who adhered to the practices of a different Church, they were to be accommodate, and if that meant importing a priest to see to their needs, so be it.
But they weren’t under their own bishops, were they? They were under the local bishop.

I’d like to see some more documented examples of how this worked, by the way. The claim has been made several times now, and I don’t dispute that something of the sort happened, but I’d like to see more specifics.

People keep misrepresentimg me as arguing against diversity of Rite. I’m not doing anything of the sort. As I keep saying, I want to see more diversity, not less. What I’m arguing against is the idea that one belongs to a “church” characterized by a particular Rite, rather than Rites simply being ways of worship and practice to which one is accustomed. It is no doubt pastorally good to give people what they are used to most of the time. But the unity of the local Body takes precedence. By all means, if a bunch of Ruthenians or Armenians or whoever move into an area where previously there were only Latins, bring in a priest of their own Rite. But don’t segregate this parish out and put it under a separate bishop. Treat it as just another parish that happens to do things differently.
A look at the infamous Bishop Ireland affair might be in order here.
Indeed. It’s one of the many wounds that causes Eastern Christians to have trouble even hearing what I’m saying. You are hearing it as just another assertion of Western superiority, when it’s nothing of the sort.

I’m coming to this as someone who much prefers Eastern liturgy and spirituality, and who if I had a choice would choose an Eastern parish over a Latin one in a shot.

Edwin
 
I have trouble with the whole concept of separate “sui juris churches” existing within the Catholic Church. It seems much like Protestant denominationalism.

It seems to me that one should go to one’s local parish, irrespective of rite. And there oughtn’t to be parallel episcopal jurisdictions. That is a wound in the unity of the Church.

Edwin
Good to see the actual definition in the eastern Catholic canons (CCEO):

Churches Sui Iuris and Rites
Canon 27:
A group of Christian faithful united by a hierarchy according to the norm of law which the supreme authority of the Church expressly or tacitly recognizes as sui iuris is called in this Code a Church sui iuris.

Canon 28:
  1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris. 2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.
 
Wow. Protestants split and divide churches based on conflicting ideologies of both major and minor issues and interpretations.

Eastern and Western Catholics, through different expressions, are still united in beliefs, hence the “one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.”
Many Protestant denominations share exactly the same beliefs. Catholics have a lot of false ideas about Protestant denominations.

Just a few examples:

The Mennonites, the Church of the Brethren, and the Brethren in Christ have different historical origins and some different practices (the latter two immerse; the Mennonites historically didn’t), but they fully recognize each other and members of one will easily attend a church of the others. Some people have dual ordination in two of these denominations.

The United Brethren and the Missionary Church nearly merged–they decided not to, not because they had any doctrinal differences, but because a lot of folks in the UB clung to their distinct identity while recognizing the fully orthodox faith of the other denomination (indeed, both these denominations would take the stance that any evangelical denomination is fully orthodox and fully part of the Church–they are two tiny denominations that I just happen to know something about because I taught at a UB college for some years).

Similarly, the Nazarenes, the Wesleyans, and the Free Methodists have no significant theological differences and fully acknowledge each other.

Many “mainline” denominations now have relationships of “full communion”: the Episcopal Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, for instance.

This is not to claim that Protestants as a whole are doctrinally united, of course. Furthermore, the relationships among denominations are complex and muddy. So I’m not claiming that it’s exactly the same. What I am claiming, and stand by, is that Protestant denominations are not necessarily distinguished from each other by dogmatic differences or a refusal of sacramental intercommunion. What distinguishes denominations, per se, is that they have distinct organizational structures.
Perhaps I’m over simplifying a bit, but are you suggesting that the Oriental and Eastern Churches should have stayed in their own national countries and those who moved to the West were to assimilate into the local RCC?
Certainly not. As a number of posters have pointed out, early Christians frequently faced this situation and found ways to accommodate the liturgical traditions of the newcomers, if there were a significant number of them (though I’d like to see a bit more documentation on specific examples).

By all means, bring in a priest of the appropriate liturgical tradition and either start a new parish or (under present circumstances, where the ground in most of the world is pretty thick with churches already) hand over one of the existing parishes to the immigrant group. Put the parish in a place where most of the immigrants live, and establish the non-coercive expectation that Latins living within the boundaries of the “immigrant” parish will attend it, and immigrants who live outside those boundaries will attend the appropriate parish. (I’m not insisting on this, though–this is the most “legalistic” of the positions I’m arguing for and I certainly wouldn’t want it to be coerced, just treated as the normal procedure.)

Or, to be really revolutionary and offend everyone, there could be a merger of traditions. The newcomers could say, “hey, here’s how we do things,” and the existing inhabitants could say, “OK, and here’s how we’ve been doing things,” and they could learn from each other. I see no theological reason why “Traditions” should be hermetically sealed from each other–that is certainly not how it was in the early Church. It’s an understandable response to the sinful way Christians have treated each other over the centuries. We have built walls to protect ourselves from each other. I’m just suggesting that the walls themselves are a problem, and are at best a temporary expedient in situations where a minority is in danger of being mistreated.

My personal agenda here is that I think Western Christianity has developed some very distorted ways of doing things, and that the “segregated” approach now current allows Westerners to go on in their flawed practices without being challenged and corrected.

Bottom line: if we aren’t mutually accountable and if we can’t worship with each other when we happen to share the same point on the space-time continuum, then we aren’t fully one. I stand by my claim that this replicates the more relatively benign features of Protestant denominationalism, features which are still, in my experience, spiritually toxic and prevent Christians from living fully into their calling as the Body of Christ.

Edwn
 
Good to see the actual definition in the eastern Catholic canons (CCEO):

Churches Sui Iuris and Rites
Canon 27:
A group of Christian faithful united by a hierarchy according to the norm of law which the supreme authority of the Church expressly or tacitly recognizes as sui iuris is called in this Code a Church sui iuris.

Canon 28:
  1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris. 2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.
And the basic problem I have is the identification of particular church with rite rathr than region.
 
Why should I go to the local parish church, when it is a different rite than my own–a rite which I find not to be conducive to my own spirituality?
I think you have made my point for me quite nicely. This is exactly why most Protestants choose one denomination over another. It isn’t because they think the other denomination is teaching false doctrine (most of the time). It’s because they want to go to a church that is “conducive to their own spirituality.”

But what on earth makes you think that the Church, universal or local, is there in order to accommodate “your spirituality”?

This makes a mockery of St. Paul’s words that Christ came to gather us into one and break down the wall that divided us (he was speaking of Jews and Gentiles, but I don’t see why it doesn’t apply just as much to any other division).

I don’t think the requisite question is whether a local church accommodates my spirituality, but how my spirituality can be enriched by the local community of believers and vice versa.

Uncongenial churches are often the best places for us, spiritually. If I wanted to develop my “spirituality” I’d be a Buddhist. That’s not the point of Christianity at all.
 
Many “mainline” denominations now have relationships of “full communion”: the Episcopal Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, for instance.
Meanwhile, not all of the synods of Lutherans are in communion with each other, despite more in common theologically than the ELCA and TEC-USA.
 
I agree with what others have already said. This would be deeply offensive save the lack of knowledge it represents.
Lack of knowledge of what? I know the position you’re maintaining–I just disagree with it. I find it supported by nothing in Scripture or Tradition. It is a tradition of purely human origin which is understandable in its historical context but which at best compromises the full expression of the unity of the Church, and at worst exacerbates our sinful tendency to segregate ourselves from each other.
We belong of course to Churches not just parishes.
Why “of course”? Why should a Catholic find it “of course” to use the word “Churches” (with capitalization and with a plural)? Shouldn’t that stop you in your tracks when you see what you’ve written? Shouldn’t you ask yourself “but aren’t we all members of one Church?”

This Church, as I understand Catholic teaching, is a universal reality that manifests itself in particular times and places. To say that there are multiple self-standing Churches with which people identify apart from their presence in a particular point of space-time is to deny, or at least compromise, the unity of the Church.

Show me theologically where I am wrong. Don’t just tell me that this isn’t the longstanding usage. I know it isn’t. But usages can be corrupt.

I am not challenging Catholic teaching on the Church–I’m asking why it isn’t fully implemented. (“Why” theologically–I know how it happened historically, and I know why it’s a sensitive issue.)

Oh, and speaking of sensitivity–I did not write the OP as a new thread. I wrote it in response to an existing thread and was surprised to see it suddenly at the head of its own thread. I’ve been brash enough on this topic, because it’s central to the convictions that have led me to the conclusion that I must become Catholic, and because the Catholic Church’s failure to implement its own teaching has been one of my excuses for not being Catholic! But I wouldn’t start out a thread with the blunt post that now stands at the head of this thread.

Edwin
 
And yet, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism all disagree with you.
Show me where they do, doctrinally. Among Anglicans the existence of parallel jurisdictions is (or at least used to be–both “conservatives” and “liberals” seem to be moving away from this now) regarded as tragic and deplorable, and a major stimulus to ecumenism. I know that many Orthodox think the same thing (obviously with a different definition of the Church than that held by Anglicans, although it’s notable that the Orthodox have never tried to establish a See of Rome). And I certainly see nothing in Catholic doctrine that supports the existence of parallel churches in the same place.

In all three communions, it seems to me, this situation is one that has grown up for historically understandable reasons, as a form of “economia.”

All I’m saying is that it should now be named as a failure to live fully into the unity of the Church, and that all Christians should work toward a day when it will no longer exist.

Edwin
 
People keep misrepresentimg me as arguing against diversity of Rite.
Yes, I’ve noticed that as well. :o
I’m not doing anything of the sort. As I keep saying, I want to see more diversity, not less. What I’m arguing against is the idea that one belongs to a “church” characterized by a particular Rite, rather than Rites simply being ways of worship and practice to which one is accustomed. It is no doubt pastorally good to give people what they are used to most of the time. But the unity of the local Body takes precedence. By all means, if a bunch of Ruthenians or Armenians or whoever move into an area where previously there were only Latins, bring in a priest of their own Rite. But don’t segregate this parish out and put it under a separate bishop.
Well, in terms of my personal consideration of these matters, I’d tend to exclude from consideration the possibility of losing our eparchies and bishops in this country. But other than that, what you’re saying reminds me a lot of The Courage to be Ourselves … in particular, the twin dangers that we often mention, assimilation on the one hand, and on the other hand isolation – or the “ghetto mentality” as it’s put (rather starkly) in that article.
 
I think you have made my point for me quite nicely. This is exactly why most Protestants choose one denomination over another. It isn’t because they think the other denomination is teaching false doctrine (most of the time). It’s because they want to go to a church that is “conducive to their own spirituality.”

But what on earth makes you think that the Church, universal or local, is there in order to accommodate “your spirituality”?

This makes a mockery of St. Paul’s words that Christ came to gather us into one and break down the wall that divided us (he was speaking of Jews and Gentiles, but I don’t see why it doesn’t apply just as much to any other division).

I don’t think the requisite question is whether a local church accommodates my spirituality, but how my spirituality can be enriched by the local community of believers and vice versa.

Uncongenial churches are often the best places for us, spiritually. If I wanted to develop my “spirituality” I’d be a Buddhist. That’s not the point of Christianity at all.
So because I, an Eastern Catholic, regularly attend an Eastern Catholic Church, rather than the Latin parish in which I live, I’m making a mockery of St. Paul’s teaching? I think you’re being rather judgmental and presumptuous.

BTW, your suggestion that Eastern Catholics should attend the parish closest to them, regardless of rite, would have the effect of closing a number of Eastern Catholic churches outside of traditional Eastern territories. For example, at my own Eastern Catholic church, the overwhelming majority—perhaps even 100%–of the members live closer to a Latin church. Furthermore, we are scattered all around the Houston area. What you are suggesting would be the end of our church, and probably nearly all Eastern Catholic churches in the United States.
 
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