Suicide for a just cause?

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Krasnaya_Kometa

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I’m having a bit of a discussion with a friend of mine, who is asking if I would commit suicide for a just cause. I told her I would die for such a cause, but not by my own hand. So she proposed several situations where I may be forced to commit suicide.

So I am curious, if, for example, you are being tortured, and it gets to the point where you either have to kill yourself or spill your guts and let thousands die as a result (and probably get killed anyway), which choice is best?
 
One dies, or thousands die because one postponed their death. Either way, you die, so choosing the option in which thousands remain quite alive seems to be the reasonable thing to do, does it not?
 
Suicide is just in that cause. Just as killing can be just to defend a life. Only this time, it’s your own death that is defending the lives of many.
 
Ashen Lady:
One dies, or thousands die because one postponed their death. Either way, you die, so choosing the option in which thousands remain quite alive seems to be the reasonable thing to do, does it not?
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This is the aforementioned friend of mine. 😉

I see what you’re saying, but that’s kind of like saying abortion is OK if the woman will die. It’s not OK, or at least abortion isn’t. I’m looking for facts, though, not speculation.
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Pro-Life_Teen:
Suicide is just in that cause. Just as killing can be just to defend a life. Only this time, it’s your own death that is defending the lives of many.
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Thanks. Although in the case of killing someone else to protect a life, that person is the one threatening lives, but in this case you would be innocent, which is closer to the abortion to save the mother thing. So I’m still confused.
 
Regardless of the reason, suicide is nonetheless a sin. It’s an abuse of our body, our temple.
 
I think it is only ok if by that you save the life of someone else
 
My two cents: It depends whether one’s death is a means or an end. If it is a means, then suicidial actions are moral if the end is just. If it is an end, then suicide is immoral.

Example: A soldier throwing his body on a granade to save the lives of his fellow soldiers. This is moral, because the soldier is not intending to kill himself; he is intending to save the lives of the other soldiers. If he should die (e.g., his helmet can’t contain the granade blast), then that is an unintended consequence of his actions.

Example: Suicide to avoid torture. This is immoral, because one’s death is the desired end of the act.
 
Krasnaya Kometa:
So I am curious, if, for example, you are being tortured, and it gets to the point where you either have to kill yourself or spill your guts and let thousands die as a result (and probably get killed anyway), which choice is best?
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In this case I would neither spill my guts nor commit suicide. I would repeat the sacred name of Jesus over and over again aloud:) .
 
A person’s life belongs to God. No one has the right to take his own life for any reason.
 
Chris Jacobsen:
A person’s life belongs to God. No one has the right to take his own life for any reason.
In this case I would neither spill my guts nor commit suicide. I would repeat the sacred name of Jesus over and over again aloud:) .
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Well said!!👍
 
My dad was in intelligence in the Air Force. They were issued “suicide pills” if they were ever taken prisoner by the enemy. This would not be a sin since if the enemy caught my dad or anyone else in intelligence they would torture him until he broke and spilled the beans and endangered National Security or got fellow soldiers killed. Plus, after they got the information from him they would kill him anyway.
 
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Petertherock:
My dad was in intelligence in the Air Force. They were issued “suicide pills” if they were ever taken prisoner by the enemy. This would not be a sin since if the enemy caught my dad or anyone else in intelligence they would torture him until he broke and spilled the beans and endangered National Security or got fellow soldiers killed. Plus, after they got the information from him they would kill him anyway.
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Remember that both the ends and the means must be morally acceptable. Now the extreme duress of capture and torture might reduce or eliminate the suicide’s culpability, but suicide is always and everywhere an objective wrong.

Scott
 
Suicide is a sin, regardless of the circumstances - but is it more or less of a sin than spilling your guts and letting thousands die?

Well, I dunno. Tough question. But I’d prefer just to lie there, whimper, and pray that God will make happen what He wants to happen. If it’s my death, great. If it’s for me to spill, well, whatever.

Either way, the idea is kind of creepy… :eek:
 
Krasnaya Kometa:
I see what you’re saying, but that’s kind of like saying abortion is OK if the woman will die. It’s not OK, or at least abortion isn’t. I’m looking for facts, though, not speculation.
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Actually this is a case of double effect.

That is if the treatment to save the mother has the unintended second effect of causing an abortion or the death of the unborn baby, it is still ok because the intended effect is to save the life of the mother.

Just like Catholic2003’s example here.
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Catholic2003:
My two cents: It depends whether one’s death is a means or an end. If it is a means, then suicidial actions are moral if the end is just. If it is an end, then suicide is immoral.

Example: A soldier throwing his body on a granade to save the lives of his fellow soldiers. This is moral, because the soldier is not intending to kill himself; he is intending to save the lives of the other soldiers. If he should die (e.g., his helmet can’t contain the granade blast), then that is an unintended consequence of his actions.

Example: Suicide to avoid torture. This is immoral, because one’s death is the desired end of the act.
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If the intended effect is to save the life of others, then the solider’s choice to sacrifice himself in this manner is just and good.

The second example shows where the suicides intended effect is the death of the person, then in that case it is not just and good.
 
Ashen Lady:
One dies, or thousands die because one postponed their death. Either way, you die, so choosing the option in which thousands remain quite alive seems to be the reasonable thing to do, does it not?
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I do not see how this could ever be.

If someone came to me and told me to kill myself or they would kill a thousand people I still would not kill myself as my death would not prevent the death of a thousand people as the individual giving me this ultimatum could still go out and kill those people.

If the intent is to commit suicide, then it is never ok to do.
 
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ByzCath:
I do not see how this could ever be.

If someone came to me and told me to kill myself or they would kill a thousand people I still would not kill myself as my death would not prevent the death of a thousand people as the individual giving me this ultimatum could still go out and kill those people.

If the intent is to commit suicide, then it is never ok to do.
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Obviously you have no concept of the military or what other countries do to our soldiers. They kidnap intelligence officers or other troops who have information on stuff like where troops are, plans of attack, etc and they torture these people until they spill the beans. Thus the military issues cyanide pills so once you are captured you are told to give your life for your country.
 
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Petertherock:
Obviously you have no concept of the military or what other countries do to our soldiers. They kidnap intelligence officers or other troops who have information on stuff like where troops are, plans of attack, etc and they torture these people until they spill the beans. Thus the military issues cyanide pills so once you are captured you are told to give your life for your country.
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You are wrong. I do understand this and if you read what I said you could see this.

This case you put forward would not be something telling you to kill yourself or they will kill a thousand people. The intended effect of your case is not the persons death, but to keep certain information that could case the deaths of many out of the hands of the enemy.

I was not aware that our military still issued cyanide pills.

The only right answer to this, though, is that it is in the hands of God as the Church teaches that suicide is a mortal sin.
 
It is not permissible to do evil to achieve good. You do not have the “right” to suicide; you did not create yourself whatever the circumstances.

I know that’s a tough line, but eithanasia is continually being presented as an option these days. I don’t want to be a “burden”, yet it is the burden’s of society wherein most oof us have an opportunity for merit, to show God’s love among the weakest.
 
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MichaelTDoyle:
It is not permissible to do evil to achieve good. You do not have the “right” to suicide; you did not create yourself whatever the circumstances.

I know that’s a tough line, but eithanasia is continually being presented as an option these days. I don’t want to be a “burden”, yet it is the burden’s of society wherein most oof us have an opportunity for merit, to show God’s love among the weakest.
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Agreed, but again, this issue of double effect can come into play here.
 
In order for something to be right, both the end and the means must be right.

You wouldn’t sell drugs to raise money for a charity.
 
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