Suicide = Hell?

[MainBrain]

On this eve of 9/11, one thing I am absolutely certain of, is that all of those that jumped to their deaths in the twin towers, they are all with the angels in Heaven. I pray for all those taken that day.

In that horrible, unimaginable day, they knew they were going to die, and the only thing they had control of was how it happened, to jump or to wait/burn/suffocate. May God bless their souls and have mercy.

Amen.

 

[thistle]

On this eve of 9/11, one thing** I am absolutely certain** of, is that all of those that jumped to their deaths in the twin towers,** they are all with the angels in Heaven.** I pray for all those taken that day.

In that horrible, unimaginable day, they knew they were going to die, and the only thing they had control of was how it happened, to jump or to wait/burn/suffocate. May God bless their souls and have mercy.

In the first place you don’t know if these people committed suicide or were simply taking the chance, however small, to jump and maybe not die.

Second, you cannot say they are in Heaven because you don’t know if they died in a state of grace. Only God knows the state of someone’s soul at death.

 

[SquallLeonheart]

In the first place you don’t know if these people committed suicide or were simply taking the chance, however small, to jump and maybe not die.

Second, you cannot say they are in Heaven because you don’t know if they died in a state of grace. Only God knows the state of someone’s soul at death.

Actually I can say they are in Heaven because they suffered the most unimaginable horror, and I pray God had mercy on them. I don’t want to even begin to fathom that horrible predicament to know you are going to die. They are in Heaven.

 

[thistle]

Actually** I can say they are in Heaven** because they suffered the most unimaginable horror, and I pray God had mercy on them. I don’t want to even begin to fathom that horrible predicament to know you are going to die. They are in Heaven.

You are wrong. No human can say that. You have no clue as to the state of their souls at death.
ONLY GOD knows the state of a person’s soul at death, not us, no matter what they have been through.
Suffering and dying a horrible death does not mean you will be saved.

 

[ready]

You are wrong. No human can say that. You have no clue as to the state of their souls at death.
ONLY GOD knows the state of a person’s soul at death, not us, no matter what they have been through.
Suffering and dying a horrible death does not mean you will be saved.

Some very evil tyrants have died equally horrible deaths.

 

[Melissa]

Being in one’s right mind is a necessary element of the “deliberate consent” component of mortal sin.

For the victims in the towers, jumping could have been a “take control of the manner of death” or a “there’s 1 chance in a however-many of surviving this fall vs certainty of death” or just an instinctive “get away from the fire” overriding all rational thought. And where they were in terms of state of grace/mortal sin before that morning cannot be known either.

I once worked in a grocery where a man came in to the store, went to the section where kitchen items including knives were sold, took a boning knife and nearly beheaded himself. In the autopsy, a brain tumor was discovered (but family knew that he hadn’t been diagnosed)–was he in physical pain (I have had migraines that were so painful that I would have welcomed the right side of my head being chopped away) or were some chemicals released by the tumor creating the physical strength and irrationality? Who knows.

A neighbor after being in a on-the-job accident had on-going physical pain and depression and was prescribed Prozac (before the suicide connection was known) and shot himself. It may have been related to the medication, it might have been the depression itself.

I had to hospitalize one of my children for suicidal ideation. Medication and therapy are in place now. Depression hurts. Losing my child would have just been transferring the pain to someone else from my son.

In the end, just like the fate of all others (victims of car accidents, murders, other fatal accidents, illnesses, or just natural death), we cannot know. It is up to God to judge, and only He knows.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

On this eve of 9/11, one thing I am absolutely certain of, is that all of those that jumped to their deaths in the twin towers, they are all with the angels in Heaven. I pray for all those taken that day.

In that horrible, unimaginable day, they knew they were going to die, and the only thing they had control of was how it happened, to jump or to wait/burn/suffocate. May God bless their souls and have mercy.

As mentioned earlier, part of the catechism says:

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
**Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide. **

I think it could be safely argued that the imminent threat of death by being trapped in a burning skyscraper would fall under the second part of 2282, therefore people who desperately jumped out windows would probably not be considered culpable of suicide.

My :twocents:

 

[Eternal_One]

Actually I can say they are in Heaven because they suffered the most unimaginable horror, and I pray God had mercy on them. I don’t want to even begin to fathom that horrible predicament to know you are going to die. They are in Heaven.

Remember, we cannot judge people. Judging people positively is still the same as judging a person negatively, in that it is completely out of our jurisdiction. Only God can judge and thistle is correct. Usually people dont think of positive judgement as judging, because they feel judgement carries a negative connotation, but that isnt the case.

 

[Tom_Baum]

And I thought that Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself on the cross.

Very, very simple statement that so many wish to add “except for”.

Maybe, just as in some Masses that it is prayed for God to have Mercy on ALL and if it is in the vernacular one may even hear and understand the words, we, your decision, should pray for God’s Mercy on ALL even outside of Mass.

I truly believe that God’s Plan of Salvation is catholic.

I thank you God for having a Plan that some seem to think impossible for You to have.

I also truly believe that it will be quite a surprise when ALL find out that Your Plan is, indeed, catholic.

I think/believe that some of the believers will be much more surprised than some of the non-believers.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

And I thought that Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself on the cross.

Very, very simple statement that so many wish to add “except for”.

Yeah, we don’t like that though because we apparently need a constant threat of hell in order to keep our orientation toward God. Believing that Jesus’s actions apply to all sins including unconfessed “mortal” sins, that’s too open-ended for institutional use. For institutions we need uncertainty so that we must ultimately continue to rely on them.

Note that Teresa of Avila couldn’t figure out why there were even distinctions of “mortal” sin or not. If you’re intentionally going against God, that’s serious whether venial or mortal. I agree with her; one can easily get weary of endless debate over whether God puts tab A into slot B or the other way around and when do I have enough points to pass the class? The real issue is that if we love God we won’t intentionally thwart His will – what happens to another soul after its person dies is not only none of my business, but frankly none of my concern. Once it’s out of the world’s hands it’s in God’s; my Jesus-given peace does not require being able to figure out the mind of God, or it would be worthless.

MS

 

[MacQ]

I don’t understand the why so many people ask such a question.
It would appear that those asking don’t stop to think that a person who commits suicide may already be in a state of mortal sin before the suicide which itself may or may not be a mortal sin.

I don’t understand what you’re driving at there…care to elaborate/clarify?

 

[MacQ]

As another has stated, that is for God to judge. We can not say definitvely if anybody is in Hell. Criteria for a sin to be mortal requires the sin to be of a grave nature, to have full knowledge of the gravity of the sin, and to willingly choose to commit the sin regardless. One could easily argue that a person’s mental capacity has the potential of removing any one of the above criteria. We simply don’t know.

Yes, this.

 

[MacQ]

On this eve of 9/11, one thing I am absolutely certain of, is that all of those that jumped to their deaths in the twin towers, they are all with the angels in Heaven. I pray for all those taken that day.

In that horrible, unimaginable day, they knew they were going to die, and the only thing they had control of was how it happened, to jump or to wait/burn/suffocate. May God bless their souls and have mercy.

I don’t think we can know if they’re all in heaven any more than people who died in car wrecks today. Nor were they any more noble, despite the emotion we all feel about that day.
But I don’t think that situation is akin to the suicide most people are talking about here.

 

[thistle]

I don’t understand what you’re driving at there…care to elaborate/clarify?

The answer to your question is actually in the post of mine you commented on.

However, to clarify further there have been many people in these forums who simply ask the question if a person commits suicide will they go to Hell. First, no human can answer that. Only God knows the state of that person’s soul at death. What people asking this question seem to ignore is that even if the suicide was not a mortal sin through reduced culpability that does not mean that person will be saved. They may already have been in a state of mortal sin prior to the suicide so even if the suicide was not a mortal sin they would still go to Hell if they died unrepentant.

 

[ready]

If the person died in despair and un-reconciled to God, then he/she would go to hell. Only God knows the state of a suicide’s soul at the moment of death. God bless you.

I think this response of mine properly answers the OP’s question. God bless you.

 

[MacQ]

The answer to your question is actually in the post of mine you commented on.

However, to clarify further there have been many people in these forums who simply ask the question if a person commits suicide will they go to Hell. First, no human can answer that. Only God knows the state of that person’s soul at death. What people asking this question seem to ignore is that even if the suicide was not a mortal sin through reduced culpability that does not mean that person will be saved. They may already have been in a state of mortal sin prior to the suicide so even if the suicide was not a mortal sin they would still go to Hell if they died unrepentant.

I see. Quite right. Thanks for the clarification.