Suicide in Romeo & Juliet - my children

[Urf]

sek:

With your belief system, people can argue for or against anything.

Yes… and your belief system allows for the same thing unless every person accepts Catholicism as the absolute truth. I’d say both have flaws right there. The difference between yours and mine? I apply my beliefs to myself and immediate things around me. Your beliefs are intended to be absolute and Universal. Unfortunately that doesnt quite work when not everyone believes the same thing (believe it or not, that’s a pretty common happening)

I’d like to establish some common ground with you… I am 100% sure that you consider yourself to be environmentally friendly. So do I. It disgusts me to see huge corporations destroying land and polluting rivers, then just moving on without cleaning up when the job is over. The environmental damage is not even included in the economic model of the initiative. They can make ten billion dollars on a strip mine without paying for any of the damange. This is wrong and evil. However, if you think about it for a while, one of the reasons why this has been allowed to happen is because things get very, very complicated. When all the different parameters, including wages of working class people, etc., get factored in, any decent corporate executive/lawyer can make your head spin. The facts are that as far as the environment goes, you can’t isolate any issue. Everything thing in the world is connected. You and I breath the same air and we drink the same water. The only way it is possible to manage all these issues properly, is (a) to have world-wide laws, and possibly universal laws as space is colonized, and (b) to have a world-wide authoritative interpretor of these laws. When/If this is attempted, you’ll find that you can’t seperate economics, from ecology, from sociology, from morality, and ultimately from theology, or if you prefer, metaphysics. There is only one entity on the earth that even comes close to being universal in all these regards. There is only one entity on earth that has equitable representation (and please don’t bring up gender at this point) amongst all the different peoples of the world. If you ever want there to be a chance that all these factors can get resolved equitably between China, England, Italy, Morocco, Sudan, Congo, Argentina, and Greenland, you need the Catholic Church.

Wait, so you’re saying if everyone is to accept Catholicism, that we wont have these issues? WOW. Obstacle: not everyone does accept Catholicism. So while I’m sure you’re very happy with the concept of your belief system being applied to everyone else, try to look at things from an outside perspective. If everyone shared the beliefs of terrorists, we wouldnt have issues either, this isnt about how special Catholicism is, it’s about what common beliefs can do to resolve conflict.

If you are really interested in understanding Catholic teaching, don’t hide behind the imperfections of your mediocre high school teachers (and priest). Pick up JPII’s Cathechism of the Catholic Church and follow the cathechetical threads (references) of most interest to you. You could also check Peter Kreeft’s stuff, as he is pretty good, accessible, and kind (much more than I): peterkreeft.com.

I am not sure about this, but I suspect you are female. I strongly recommend “Privilege of Being a Woman” by Alice von Hildebrand.

In Christ,

Sean.

Heh, no I am not female. There’s one thing that you’re overlooking here. My experience in highschool IS Catholicism, or rather the projection of what Catholicism has done for its followers. Just because you are very knowledgeable about these subjects and have this understanding doesnt mean that it’s because you’re Catholic. If the majority of followers of Catholicism misunderstand the faith among other faults, THAT. IS. CATHOLICISM. Part of a faith is the impression that it has on its followers, and most of that has to do with its success of conveying the understanding of the faith to it’s followers. If it does poorly in that respect you cant just pull out someone brilliant and say that Catholicism is a good thing because of the affect it has on this one person.

 

[chicago]

sek:

OK. I appologize. I’ll back up to your previous post then:

When I ask these questions, I’m not asking just anyone for their advice. I’m asking practicing Catholics; people who love the Universal Faith. There are many praciticing Catholic families who succeed at raising their children in the Faith, generation after generation. Not all children are confused, multi-media addicted, indifferentists - most are, but a significant number are not. If you let the world raise your children, you are likely to get children of the world. We are commanded to be seperate from the world, and therefore, we must form our children properely. There is only one Truth (it is very large, majestic, and mysterious, but one nonetheless), and we must form our children around that Truth. Your sentiment about sheltering is just cliched dribble - you have been brainwased by the world and you have surrendered to it. Catholics surrender to Christ.

Three weeks ago I stayed in a stunning Benedictine Abbey in Normandy, France: st-wandrille.com. The Abbey has been in continuous operation since the 600s (except for a viking invasion and during the french revolution). There are 40 monks there and a steady stream of visitors for silent retreats. I studied the history of the monestary while in my cell and it is absolutely incredible. That is reality. What you call the real world is just a ludicrous illusion. Yes, we are to love the people in it, but we are not to become part of the illusion.

Stop living your life according to silly secular stereotypes and embrace the richness of the Catholic world. As a starting point, I recommend you go see theresemovie.com. If you don’t like this, then I’m sorry, but you and I have nothing to talk about. I know this reflects poorly on me - I am not as patient and kind as God wants me to be - hopefully I will be one day. There are many people in God’s Church that can spend more time with you, but I’m not one of them.

In Christ,

Sean.

Permit me to return to the original topic of the arts and storytelling.

As Catholics, I think that we need not reject the realities (often sinful and difficult or at least questionable, but always quite human and true) of life as “illusions”. Perhaps there are attractive appearances of certain things which might be false impressions that we could legitimately considered something of an illusion. However, more likely, these are ultimately unavoidable matters which we will all encounter, either firsthand or in relation to the rest of the world around us.

Yes, we are to be not “of the world”, but we are still very much in it. And, fallen beings who we are, we all too often will succomb to our worldly passions. Certainly, we ought to set our minds and hearts on the higher things and allow ourselves to submit to God in order to be transformed by grace. Nonetheless, we can’t truly isolate ourselves from “the world”, nor ought we. Rather, it must be engaged in it’s own sphere in order to be transformed.

The Word did not merely overcome some “illusion of the flesh” (a heresy which Augustine was guilty of following after at one point in his life). Rather He became man, sharing in all of our real nature and experiencing (though not personally sinning or being concupiscient) the world in all of it’s fullness. He did not hide from sin, but lived and ate with sinners. Only in this way could He reach us where we are and transform us in Himself, raising us up to something higher.

Nor can followers of Christ, therefore, abandon this path.

When it comes to the arts, therefore, these realities must be somehow represented if they are to connect with us in the world in which we live and move and have our being. We must be able to initially relate to that which is portrayed as something with which we can all too readily identify. That might not necessarily be pretty or something ideal. But it will be honest, genuine, and true. Indeed, delving right in fully to represent and identify with these things is perhaps a most Catholic approach. For only then can they be transformed and we come to the realization that we must, likewise, be so transformed.

How a young, growing child ought to be best exposed to such things and helped to deal with them is merely a question of prudence which a parent has the right to adjudicate. Yet they will ultimately be unavoidable topics of concern which everyone has to come to terms with in our human experience. Different people in different environments might come to different conclusions as to how the matter should be approached. And they might all be discerning rightly in their particular situation. Or we may all be able to use the unique critiques as a point of reflection and growth to challenge our personal perspectives.

 

[sek]

Yes… and your belief system allows for the same thing unless every person accepts Catholicism as the absolute truth.

No, my system has a formal structure for appeal. Ultimately, if both sides of a dispute have enough conviction, they can escelate a dispute all the way to the Pope. If fact every Catholic person can appeal to the Pope on any issue. The Pope (just like the supreme court) is not obliged to rule, but if he rules, the ruling is binding on Catholics. If a person does not accept the ruling, then he is not Catholic. The Pope may or may not choose to enforce the excommunication, but the mechanism is available. This mechanism was established by Christ. Furthermore, the Law of the Church is very riguourous and includes a hierarchy of precendents. I could go on and on about this, but you’re kidding yourself if you think that the Catholic faith is just another competing idealogy. If I say I’m a marxist, do my words make it so? I either am or I am not, to a large extent independent of what I say I am.

Wait, so you’re saying if everyone is to accept Catholicism, that we wont have these issues? WOW.

I didn’t say that (what faculty are you in anyway). What I am saying is that it is not possible to avoid a universal system of laws if you want to solve real problems like environmental devastation. By the way the Church has very interesting writings on the virtues and evils of economic activity. Through free enterprise economic and philosophical activity, the world has consumed more in a 100 years, than in all other years put together. Also, no if you had only terrorists, you’d have violent anarchy and ultimate anialation of all people. Read the history of the muslim tribes from the beginning of Islam in 600AD.

Heh, no I am not female. There’s one thing that you’re overlooking here. My experience in highschool IS Catholicism, or rather the projection of what Catholicism has done for its followers. Just because you are very knowledgeable about these subjects and have this understanding doesnt mean that it’s because you’re Catholic. If the majority of followers of Catholicism misunderstand the faith among other faults, THAT. IS. CATHOLICISM. Part of a faith is the impression that it has on its followers, and most of that has to do with its success of conveying the understanding of the faith to it’s followers. If it does poorly in that respect you cant just pull out someone brilliant and say that Catholicism is a good thing because of the affect it has on this one person.

Sorry about the female thing. Anyway, to some extent you are correct, but to some extent you’re being illogical. Let me illustrate: Let us assume that God does exist and has an official religion that is good, in a place where free will exists. If this is true don’t you think that evil forces would try to infiltrate it and create misreprentations so that the good would seem bad thereby scandalizing the good? You might respond by: OK, but if God did exist, wouldn’t he prevent this. I would agree to some extent with this, but (a) this brings us to the classic “problem of evil” which has answers, but is a valid argument against the existance of God, and (b) this what heaven is like: no bad people pretending to be good people etc., so we yearn for that world as we do our best in this one.

The issue you bring up with regards to Catholics not being all that virtues or knowledgable or whatever is a valid one. If you really study history (and this will take a long time), in an unbiased fashion, you will start to see a pattern on how we got to where we are today (with regrads to poor witness of most Catholics). Do you know that in the 1800s Catholic Churches were illegal in the “town greens” of New England? The Church has been persecuted all over the world since the Reformation. If you say that the Church persecuted others to an equal extent before that (Spanish Inquisition for example), I challenge you on that point.

Unfortunately, to understand all this, in addition to understanding history, you’ll also have to understand Catholic Augustinian theology on the subject of how good and evil mix in this world, but will be seperated in the next. This theology is why in a Catholic Church on Sunday, you could have a saint like Mother Theressa, a mass murderer, a regular nice person, and a selfish capitalist all sitting beside each other in a row. This is tough one, but it becomes understandable when you exhaust all the other alternatives in your mind.

 

[wabrams]

sek:

Don’t just read some blurb that you just found by Googling it. Read it. Pray about it. Count up all the time you spend on secular trash, and then spend half that amount of time reading classic Catholic writings.

Again, you’re making assumptions.

 

[sek]

wabrams:

Again, you’re making assumptions.

Sorry. Just trying to keep things interesting. You’re right: whenever one makes assumptions, one must live with the consequences of being incorrect. In all real engineering for example, every design is based on a whole set of assumptions. If any of the critical assumptions are incorrect, then that consequence tends to be a flawed design. There is no such thing as an engineering design based entirely on analystical theory - it’s all assumptions made in the context of knowledge of the underlying theory.

This notion extends to the all other realms as well. You don’t think of it like this, but every decision you have ever made is based on a set of assumptions. Only God has 100% understanding and makes decisions without relying on assumptions. The reason you don’t think of your decision making foundation as a set of assumptions, is because usually (especially on a forum), you can just assume that your assumptions are facts - which is practically usefuly, but theoretically incorrect.

I don’t mind playing a litle bit of a guessing game with someone who writes “what’s wrong with that” on a Catholic board. I was just trying to get some sincere feedback from practicing Catholics who have similar sensibilities to the common non-ideal behaviour of young people in secular media. Instead of saying “what’s wrong with that”, you could have just given me your opinion on the subject matter. If you are not a practicing Catholic, then that is OK, but please leave me alone. I wasn’t trying to get into a debate about unmarried kissing with some agnostic liberal (I don’t dislike agnostic liberals BTW, I just don’t ask them questions about morality). I really needed some advice, and I got it from many sincere people.

What are the consequences I face for the assumtions I have made about you?

In Christ,

Sean.

 

[wabrams]

sek:

I don’t mind playing a litle bit of a guessing game with someone who writes “what’s wrong with that” on a Catholic board. I was just trying to get some sincere feedback from practicing Catholics who have similar sensibilities to the common non-ideal behaviour of young people in secular media. Instead of saying “what’s wrong with that”, you could have just given me your opinion on the subject matter.

I didn’t mention anything about the suicide question because it seemed several good answers were given. How suicide in presented to adolescents is an important issue.

sek:

If you are not a practicing Catholic, then that is OK, but please leave me alone. I wasn’t trying to get into a debate about unmarried kissing with some agnostic liberal (I don’t dislike agnostic liberals BTW, I just don’t ask them questions about morality).

I am hardly an agnostic liberal. Actually, I’m going through RCIA right now. But if there is a topic you don’t want to get into a debate about, then don’t bring it up.

sek:

What are the consequences I face for the assumtions I have made about you?

The consequences you face are losing credibility by acting like you know what everyone has done (such as assuming I haven’t read the book) and coming across as arrogant. The more you do this, the less someone will want to have an open dialogue with you.

 

[sek]

I am hardly an agnostic liberal. Actually, I’m going through RCIA right now. But if there is a topic you don’t want to get into a debate about, then don’t bring it up.

God bless you!

The consequences you face are losing credibility by acting like you know what everyone has done (such as assuming I haven’t read the book) and coming across as arrogant. The more you do this, the less someone will want to have an open dialogue with you.

Granted.

 

[sek]

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I know where you’re coming from, and to some extent I agree with you, but to some extent I disagree. I agree with you in the sense that when we find ourselves in certain situations we are to use Love as our number guiding light, as our Lord did. However, I also believe that to live in a cloister or a monastery is in one sense superior to living a secular life and purposely experiencing worldly activity (even if we refrain from sin). The Church has always tought that it is better to stay unmarried and live a Religious life. I know we weren’t talking about Religious life, but I just want to point out that there is something to the idea of sheltering oneself from the world, as long as it is not out of spite etc.

I think you almost touch on the issue I’m driving at but I’m not quite sure. On characterstic of illusion is deception. It doesn’t always mean that the deception is harmful (it might be just playful for example), but many times deception is harmful, especially to the soul. Living life in a hermatige, cloister, or monastery is much more real in the sense that deception is minimized, and God’s glory is more fully comprehended without such deception.

In Christ,

Sean.