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laylow
Guest
Just going by what a Catholic priest said. If you want to question the priest, that is your choice.
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Suicide is by definition unforgivable, as forgiveness is offered only to the living. The state of one’s soul at the moment of death seals one’s eternal destiny. After death is judgment.
Catholic teaching, look it up.
Therefore, when it is said that we do not despair over the salvation of those who have taken their own lives, it is with respect to the state of their souls at the moment of death, that is, their mental condition, lack of free will, etc., means they do not always meet the three requirements for mortal sin, and as such, are not guilty of mortal sin when they die, that is, they die in the state of grace. This is what the Church is saying, which allows us this hope.
One who knowingly, freely and intentionally takes his own life is certainly damned and there is no forgiveness after death. And there are indeed such sad people who are in hell now for that reason.
Catholic teaching, look it up.
Therefore, when it is said that we do not despair over the salvation of those who have taken their own lives, it is with respect to the state of their souls at the moment of death, that is, their mental condition, lack of free will, etc., means they do not always meet the three requirements for mortal sin, and as such, are not guilty of mortal sin when they die, that is, they die in the state of grace. This is what the Church is saying, which allows us this hope.
One who knowingly, freely and intentionally takes his own life is certainly damned and there is no forgiveness after death. And there are indeed such sad people who are in hell now for that reason.
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PJM
Guest
The CURRENTLY thoughts of the RCC is that ONLY God can know for sure; precisely because ONLY God can know the MIND & the heart of that Soul. we are encourages NOT to despair & to PRAY VERY MUCH for God’s Mercy. AMEN!
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PJM
Guest
quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy View Post
That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
You need to become familiar with Catholic theology.
That is not possible in Catholic teaching. The Church could not be clearer.
Do you have access to the catechism if the Catholic Church? end quote
FROM OUR Catholic Catechism RE: suicide
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2325 Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.
God Bless you
Patrick
That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
You need to become familiar with Catholic theology.
That is not possible in Catholic teaching. The Church could not be clearer.
Do you have access to the catechism if the Catholic Church? end quote
FRIEND either your priest is not in line with RCC teaching, or perhaps is being misunderstood.
FROM OUR Catholic Catechism RE: suicide
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2325 Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.
God Bless you
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
Thank you
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TheAmazingGrace
Guest
Suicide is not unforgivable. In most cases, the individual is mentally ill, which takes away a lot of the culpability. God knows our hearts, and He is aware of the pain that drives His children to such an act.
It is never the right choice, however. If you feel suicidal, or if one of your loved ones is expressing suicidal ideations, please seek help.
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goout
Guest
No one but God knows the state of a person’s soul at death.
The Church does not proclaim anyone damned, so we should not say such people *are *in hell.
Is it possible? Sure.
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
I assume that many of the people who jumped from the burning Towers on 9/11 also had diminished responsibility, even those who had no mental illness at all.
I also wonder, what about spies who carry “suicide pills” in case of capture, in that case they commit suicide more out of a fear they would give up secrets under torture than of the torture itself, in this case there seems to be more of a deliberate premeditated suicide, though I guess some of those spies may be so indoctrinated by their bosses that this also diminishes culpability.
There are also cases of people who “attempt suicide” in a usually non-lethal way such as swallowing a handful of pills, most survive such attempts and claim afterwards they didn’t really want to die but did what they did as a “cry for help”. But sadly, some do not survive the attempt, even if they really did not intend to die but assumed they’d be found and helped in time.
I can think of at least one such case, a young man who often threatened to harm himself yet never actually did so, until one day when he claimed to have taken many pills, no one believed him, but he had taken them, and he died.
I assume that if people really did NOT intend to die that mitigates the actions too.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
This is an hour long video. Can you point out where it says what you are claiming?
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Did you read this? It completely refutes your claim that after death one is given other chances to reconcile with God. Completely.
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USMC_Convert
Guest
Before I agree with you, let me be very clear, suicide is a grave and possibly mortal sin, anyone contemplating it is probably not going to fall into the exemption category, those, I would guess, are more for the guy on drugs that jumps out a window, or someone who finds out their spouse has left them and before they had time to really think, took their lives.
Anyone who commits suicide is in grave danger of losing their souls.
Now, that being said, I have also heard, from Mystic’s and NDE’s (although I’d be very hard pressed to find the source at this moment, not sure where exactly it was or who said it so I cannot at this time give good credibility to the following statements) that yes Jesus presents Himself to the soul three times after death. If the soul accepts Him, great, if not He goes away, this is done three times, and if there is a third rejection, the soul is sentenced (probably to eternal damnation, I’d guess).
Now another couple things, first off, we should not and are required not to depend on this type of salvation from our Lord. He shows us the true path, and expects us to follow it. I believe, whoever it was that was saying this, was talking more about those who never knew Jesus or basically never had an opportunity to know Him in this life. That He presents Himself to the soul in the milliseconds before actual death because during life, He was never presented to the person.
This is not something that informed Catholics should be depending on. Nor anyone for that matter.
Now also since you wanted to bring up St. Paul, I’ll give you a Jesus and judas example. Judas could truly be said of that he was not in his right mind and therefore couldn’t be held responsible for his suicide. Furthermore it could be argued that because he tried to get Jesus free, and gave back the 30 pieces of silver he had true repentance. So can judas be in heaven. I will not say yes or no, but I will say that Jesus Himself says, “woe to him that betrays the Son of Man, it would have been better if he had never been born” I think that’s a clear indication of where judas probably ended up, for what sin, I don’t think anyone can tell you that, was it the betrayal, or the suicide or something else entirely, I’m not sure. Maybe he is in heaven, all we can really do is pray and trust and hope in God’s Divine Mercy.
Anyone who commits suicide is in grave danger of losing their souls.
Now, that being said, I have also heard, from Mystic’s and NDE’s (although I’d be very hard pressed to find the source at this moment, not sure where exactly it was or who said it so I cannot at this time give good credibility to the following statements) that yes Jesus presents Himself to the soul three times after death. If the soul accepts Him, great, if not He goes away, this is done three times, and if there is a third rejection, the soul is sentenced (probably to eternal damnation, I’d guess).
Now another couple things, first off, we should not and are required not to depend on this type of salvation from our Lord. He shows us the true path, and expects us to follow it. I believe, whoever it was that was saying this, was talking more about those who never knew Jesus or basically never had an opportunity to know Him in this life. That He presents Himself to the soul in the milliseconds before actual death because during life, He was never presented to the person.
This is not something that informed Catholics should be depending on. Nor anyone for that matter.
Now also since you wanted to bring up St. Paul, I’ll give you a Jesus and judas example. Judas could truly be said of that he was not in his right mind and therefore couldn’t be held responsible for his suicide. Furthermore it could be argued that because he tried to get Jesus free, and gave back the 30 pieces of silver he had true repentance. So can judas be in heaven. I will not say yes or no, but I will say that Jesus Himself says, “woe to him that betrays the Son of Man, it would have been better if he had never been born” I think that’s a clear indication of where judas probably ended up, for what sin, I don’t think anyone can tell you that, was it the betrayal, or the suicide or something else entirely, I’m not sure. Maybe he is in heaven, all we can really do is pray and trust and hope in God’s Divine Mercy.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Regarding this leprechaun like 3 chances after death stuff.
No Catholic can accept that
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm
Specifically 1021 and 1022 of the catechism.
NDEs mystics or Oprah aside, its bunk.
I’m reminded of little bunny foo foo.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Bunny_Foo_Foo
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USMC_Convert
Guest
Well as I said it isn’t something that I can even give a source to, I just remember hearing it. I’m not pushing it as Catholic belief, or saying we must believe in it.
Secondly, do you believe only those who were Catholic on earth are in heaven? I don’t, but I don’t know how those who weren’t Catholic got there, I have no idea what the answer to that question is, maybe its the three chances thing, maybe its something else, but if there are people in heaven who were not Catholic on earth how did they get there? God must have some way of getting them there, why can’t this be a possibility?
Thirdly and most sadly, do you think your mocking of what other people bring up makes them want to listen to you more or less? If you have the fullness of truth and are trying to get others to accept and believe it, do you think mocking them will bring them to it, or push them away? To me I now really can’t listen to you without wondering when the next time you will mock me or someone else because of what we may say, and that is not very Catholic either.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
- There is no Catholic source for it. If you are going to post something heterodox, please don’t. And it’s not that we " must" believe it. Simply put no Catholic CAN believe it!
- I don’t know. I hope for the salvation for all and I don’t limit God. But again it CANNOT be that ridiculous idea. Please, read the catechism and don’t posit things that would contradict it. While we don’t know how God saves outside the sacraments and the Church we sure as shootin know he doesn’t contradict the Chuech to do it.
- These are public boards. Personally, I don’t think this thread should exist. In the past, we have had posters that were suicidal and the threads had to be closed. CAF is just not equipped to handle things like this. However, and I’m sorry if this offends some, when dealing with a thread touching on life and death and suicide such as this. The part that is so antiCatholic or just plain theologically illogical or dangerous needs to be shown as such. If this were a thread about a grieving mother who wondered if her child was damned because of suicide, perhaps the answer would be more nuanced. Not changed however, just nuanced.
But the OP on may 9th. Started this thread.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1051375
Perhaps I could have worded it differently, but please, before you chastise me, stop offering dangerous ideas, that are, I’m sorry to say, silly, theologically for a Catholic to have.
Please stop contradicting the Church on its iron clad Truth.
Just so you know, I am reporting this thread for the second time. I pray it is closed. The thread asking for prayers for the poster referenced above is much more appropriate. We should all post there our prayers for the OP.
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USMC_Convert
Guest
Well you will be shocked to hear that I agree with most everything you said. Go back and reread my first post more carefully, I am offering no dangerous idea, I am simply saying I have heard what the OP has also heard, but I think it was meant for a different crowd, not those contemplating suicide. Whether it is true or not I can give no actual yes or no. It is not a path that a Catholic, nor that anyone should choose (I said that in my first post).
Also I am not saying anything contrary to the catechism in fact read 1033 from the link you posted: “We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love Him.” So therefore it is necessary to choose to love God, someone in Iraq, who has never been exposed to Catholicism, how are they able to accept Jesus?
But I shall cease here, because I don’t want to lead anyone to the wrong conclusions, the possible (note I said possible) paths to heaven for those who are not in the Catholic Church due to no fault of their own have no real part in the conversation about suicide. Possibly another thread could be created to discuss this further, but I will heed your advice and try not to give anyone who may be contemplating suicide any false hope (I basically said the same thing earlier).
I will end with how I started, Suicide is a grave sin, it is grave matter and however God treats it, if you commit suicide you are in grave danger of losing your soul.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
You state You heard Jesus presents himself to the soul three times AFTER death.
That is not acceptable, it contradicts the Church. Postmortem chances for salvation are non existant for humans, Catholic or otherwise. You are judged by your living choices and circumstances. Please correct your opinion.
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USMC_Convert
Guest
I have a problem with that as well. That is why I also said, maybe it happens in the milliseconds before death, I don’t know, but, yes you are correct, once death happens, its game over. There is nothing you can do. Simply, I leave it at I don’t know.
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PJM
Guest
Good point, THANKS
But their action were in an attempt to avoid dying, so not in the same [as in being a free choice to take ones own life], as is the case in suicide; though .the issue of FREE-Choice is the issue of debate in their culpability too. The 9/11 victims were murdered.
Here the issue, one can safely presume is mute or nearly so. The life of spy, at least as WE envision it, is hardly a moral life without often grave errors willingly committed.
ANYONE who dies with unconfessed, unforgiven MORTAL sins [1 John 5:16-17] is self-condemned to hell. … A Person in Mortal sin BUT TRULY unable to get to Sacramental Confession NOT of their lack of desire of effort to do so, as an exception to this NORM, can make an act of "PERFECT Contrition:; where there is keen awareness of NOT the loss of heaven and the fear of eternal Hell; rather TRUE sorrow for having offended grievously our God who alone is worthy of ALL of our love.
The issue here then becomes does God accept such an attempt which literally has to be PERFECT in motive to be effective? Only God can know
There are also cases of people who “attempt suicide” in a usually non-lethal way such as swallowing a handful of pills, most survive such attempts and claim afterwards they didn’t really want to die but did what they did as a “cry for help”. But sadly, some do not survive the attempt, even if they really did not intend to die but assumed they’d be found and helped in time.
I can think of at least one such case, a young man who often threatened to harm himself yet never actually did so, until one day when he claimed to have taken many pills, no one believed him, but he had taken them, and he died.
I assume that if people really did NOT intend to die that mitigates the actions too.
Thanks and please let me know if you have any other questions? [PJM]
God Bless you
Patrick
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