Summorum Pontificum..Does it apply to the SSPX?

[JustaServant]

Still waiting for a quote from the Pope at the time…

 

[Aramis]

That was clever.

It’s very dicey. I guess one can say, “That SP grants us the right to request the EF.”

Yet, it does not oblige any priest to grant my request. This is where bishops get caught in the middle. Unlike religious superiors who can simply deny such a request, a diocesan bishop has to try to honor the request. But how does one honor a request when the “service provider” is not obliged to provide the service?

Such “unfilled need” is what the ICRSS and FSSP are chartered to fill. Their Charism Includes providing the EF mass where it is desired & Welcomed by the Bishop.

 

[Rich_C]

Still waiting for a quote from the Pope at the time…

OK, I’ll concede this:

The Latin Mass was never formally and solemnly banned, it was only *de facto *banned by the hierarchy.

Would you agree to that statement?

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Well, as to your one comment over there, about wanting to learn, you’re not going to learn ANYTHING in a cesspool like that.
It will only make you angry and more isolated.

I’m on guard brother. I don’t just buy into all of it. Anymore.

Lots of good stuff in addition to the ‘colorful’ characters.

 

[JustaServant]

OK, I’ll concede this:

The Latin Mass was never formally and solemnly banned, it was only *de facto *banned by the hierarchy.

Would you agree to that statement?

Let’s lower the bar then.
Find a quote by any CARDINAL or BISHOP who said the TLM was banned.

 

[Aramis]

How can you say that after he relaxed the rules on fasting and abstinence, allowed Saturday vigil Masses to count, not to mention allowing the use of conscience to determine the size of families?

Canonically, Sunday starts at Sundown on Saturday. Always has… as it is a Jewishism.

 

[Rich_C]

Let’s lower the bar then.
Find a quote by any CARDINAL or BISHOP who said the TLM was banned.

I’ll have to find a good free newspaper archive. I don’t know of any.

The point is: it was de facto banned, even if you won’t admit it.

 

[clem456]

If he is a child he has a “right” to food or you will be imprisoned for child endangerment. Some of us need to be fed the TLM because the NO does not feed our spiritual lives. We are children of the Church so the analogy fits.

Which is insufficient in your mind…
Christ’s sacrifice?
The Holy Spirit working through the Church?
The priests?
Our fellow Catholics who celebrate Mass with us?

If some of these things are either unchangeable or unassailable in their authority, where does the insufficiency really lie?

 

[JustaServant]

I’ll have to find a good free newspaper archive. I don’t know of any.

The point is: it was de facto banned, even if you won’t admit it.

I can also believe the big-haired guy on “Ancient Aliens” who insists the Pyramids were built by ETs.
Show me the smoking gun…
Otherwise, its just conjecture.

The only people that I remember, I’m 51, who claimed the TLM was “banned” were people who were not in any position of higher authority in the Catholic Church.
If they were Catholic at all.

 

[Rich_C]

Which is insufficient in your mind…
Christ’s sacrifice?
The Holy Spirit working through the Church?
The priests?
Our fellow Catholics who celebrate Mass with us?

If some of these things are either unchangeable or unassailable in their authority, where does the insufficiency really lie?

I’m sure he didn’t mean any of the above.

Everyone has their own reasons. I would say there is insufficient time for deep interior prayer at the OF, because of all the responses and actions the people are supposed to do, for one.

 

[JM3]

Heres one stating JPII reiterated the ban on the Tridentine Mass

news.google.com/newspapers?id=LoQwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4PoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2651,2964385&dq=tridentine+mass+banned&hl=en

news.google.com/newspapers?id=ZOkgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=H24FAAAAIBAJ&pg=4888,969246&dq=tridentine+mass+banned&hl=en

I can produce hundreds of articles stating it was banned, but not a single one that says it was not banned. But “perception is greater than reality”.

From your second link:

“The Tridentine Latin mass, in which the officiating priest faces away from the congregation, was banned by the Second Vatican Council in the late 1960’s although the reigning pope at the time Paul VI, authorized Latin-language masses if there were a demand for it.”

Doesn’t appear to me that it was banned.

 

[Rich_C]

I can also believe the big-haired guy on “Ancient Aliens” who insists the Pyramids were built by ETs.
Show me the smoking gun…
Otherwise, its just conjecture.

The only people that I remember, I’m 51, who claimed the TLM was “banned” were people who were not in any position of higher authority in the Catholic Church.
If they were Catholic at all.

Whether or not there was a *de facto *ban is not an issue of authority, it’s an issue of history.

The TLM all but disappeared. That’s a fact. Many people still wanted it. That’s a fact. Priests who tried to provide it to them were removed from ministry. That’s a fact.

There is no conjection about the above facts, and they are sufficient to show that there was a de facto ban.

I wish you would do me the courtesy of arguing with me instead of dismissing me. Anyway, I never argue on the Internet to convince anyone. That’s an impossible goal, usually. I argue to convince third-party readers who rarely even post.

If any of them are reading now, you’re not doing your position justice.

 

[clem456]

I’m sure he didn’t mean any of the above.

Everyone has their own reasons. I would say there is insufficient time for deep interior prayer at the OF, because of all the responses and actions the people are supposed to do, for one.

Sometimes even at adoration with just me and Jesus, a lot of bending of my stiff neck is required to “be receptive” to the Lord’s unchanging presence.
Just a few weeks ago we had adoration in Church. One of the people who planned it walked up to the altar after the Blessed Sacrament was exposed and started a cd of aimless “Brickman” piano music that just about drove me over the edge to insanity. Some people liked it! I hated it. Same Jesus. Different people, different tastes. It’s on me to offer it up and adore the Lord. The Lord knows I hate Brickman but he’d still like me to be in his presence.

Same with the Mass. Every Mass offers the same opportunity to be fed. It’s on us to be receptive. And that doesn’t mean we have a really cool sensory experience with music, and art.

 

[hudson]

From your second link:

“The Tridentine Latin mass, in which the officiating priest faces away from the congregation, was banned by the Second Vatican Council in the late 1960’s although the reigning pope at the time Paul VI, authorized Latin-language masses if there were a demand for it.”

Doesn’t appear to me that it was banned.

Latin Masses was never the name for the Tridentine Latin Mass…The Novus Ordo can just as easily be a Latin Mass since it can be fully said in Latin. That is not what is being questioned.

 

[JustaServant]

Whether or not there was a *de facto *ban is not an issue of authority, it’s an issue of history.

The TLM all but disappeared. That’s a fact. Many people still wanted it. That’s a fact. Priests who tried to provide it to them were removed from ministry. That’s a fact.

There is no conjection about the above facts, and they are sufficient to show that there was a de facto ban.

I wish you would do me the courtesy of arguing with me instead of dismissing me. Anyway, I never argue on the Internet to convince anyone. That’s an impossible goal, usually. I argue to convince third-party readers who rarely even post.

If any of them are reading now, you’re not doing your position justice.

Hence the ET comment.
Stating something as fact, does not make it fact.
Proving it, does.
Where is the proof?

 

[Rich_C]

Sometimes even at adoration with just me and Jesus, a lot of bending of my stiff neck is required to “be receptive” to the Lord’s unchanging presence.
Just a few weeks ago we had adoration in Church. One of the people who planned it walked up to the altar after the Blessed Sacrament was exposed and started a cd of aimless “Brickman” piano music that just about drove me over the edge to insanity. Some people liked it! I hated it. Same Jesus. Different people, different tastes. It’s on me to offer it up and adore the Lord. The Lord knows I hate Brickman but he’d still like me to be in his presence.

Same with the Mass. Every Mass offers the same opportunity to be fed. It’s on us to be receptive. And that doesn’t mean we have a really cool sensory experience with music, and art.

If you had to listen to Brickman at every adoration chapel, wouldn’t you ask for something better?

Anyway, if the OF Masses I’ve been to lately weren’ trying to give me “a really cool sensory experience with music, and art” it would’ve been a more prayerful experience all around.

 

[hudson]

Which is insufficient in your mind…
Christ’s sacrifice?
The Holy Spirit working through the Church?
The priests?
Our fellow Catholics who celebrate Mass with us?

If some of these things are either unchangeable or unassailable in their authority, where does the insufficiency really lie?

Not sure what you are talking about. My spiritual needs are fed when I attend the TLM/EF and most of the time are not when I attend the NO. I can’t tell you why, it is something in my soul. So accept it and don’t try and be my psychologist.

 

[Rich_C]

Hence the ET comment.
Stating something as fact, does not make it fact.
Proving it, does.
Where is the proof?

The Latin Mass almost disappeared, there’s the proof.

It’s ridiculous to put the burden of proof on me when I’m just stating the obvious.

At this point, you’re just being contrary. I’ve proved my point beyond a reasonable doubt for anyone reading this. I’d rather go read a blog now. Ttyl.

 

[hudson]

Hence the ET comment.
Stating something as fact, does not make it fact.
Proving it, does.
Where is the proof?

What are you talking about? The proof is that no licit TLM was allowed for over 10 years in the 70’s to early to mid 80’s. Provide us proof of some approved TLM’s that were being permitted. It was never formally abrogated that is fact, but it was de facto banned and any Priest caught saying it was punished to the point of dismissal. You ask for proof and I gave you news stories from the 70s and 80s and I can produce hundreds more just like it. I cannot find one news story about the TLM being permitted.

 

[JustaServant]

The Latin Mass almost disappeared, there’s the proof.

It’s ridiculous to put the burden of proof on me when I’m just stating the obvious.

At this point, you’re just being contrary.** I’ve proved my point beyond a reasonable doubt for anyone reading this**. I’d rather go read a blog now. Ttyl.

No you have not.
You stated the Pope banned the TLM.
When asked for proof, you high-tail it claiming victory.