Sun miracle of Fatima question

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As we know the Earth turns. I’ve heard that the sun moved in Fatima.
Did it affect the sun in other countries? As the Earth turns, I don’t know whether the sun miracle is true. If it did not affect other countries, then it might be preternatural.
Can you say me a scientifical reasoning to the means of this thing (I’m not an atheist)? Or maybe the sun didn’t move in Fatima?
 
Pelly said:
As we know the Earth turns. I’ve heard that the sun moved in Fatima.
Did it affect the sun in other countries? As the Earth turns, I don’t know whether the sun miracle is true. If it did not affect other countries, then it might be preternatural.
Can you say me a scientifical reasoning to the means of this thing (I’m not an atheist)? Or maybe the sun didn’t move in Fatima?
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Hi Pelly,

Fist of all, I am glad for your interest in Fatima and I’ll be immensely joyful if you erase soon that words in your religion tag “Religion: Undecided (Christian)”.I hope soon to see CATHOLIC.

Those who saw the Miracle of the sun by GOD grace, all them was touched by the supernatural (GOOD) hand. Do not try to search or include scientific explication or reason for FATIMA. Have faith Pelly and open your heart to OUR LADY OF FATIMA, She will enlightened you to be with JESUS and prepare you for a chain of love.
Try to acquire the 13th Day movie by Ian&Dominic Higgins, it’s a simple and beautiful movie.

God Bless you All
 
If God is all powerful, God can defy all scientific explanation.
 
Pelly said:
As we know the Earth turns. I’ve heard that the sun moved in Fatima.
Did it affect the sun in other countries? As the Earth turns, I don’t know whether the sun miracle is true. If it did not affect other countries, then it might be preternatural.
Can you say me a scientifical reasoning to the means of this thing (I’m not an atheist)? Or maybe the sun didn’t move in Fatima?
Click to expand...
Another thread already exists on this subject.

mass delusion or genuine miracle?
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0DA4162066A1F39

Mass delusion on the part of 70000 people or an actual miracle predicted by the children? It was not of natural origin as it was not recorded by any astronomical observatory. Mass delusion is ruled out, in my opinion, for obvious reasons. Also, the event was witnessed up to 20 miles away by people going about their normal lives unaware of the predicted event.

The prediction alone is astonishing. The children of Fatima predicted a miracle and they delivered on it; it happened on that exact day; what are the odds of that alone…?

Here are are a couple accounts of the event:

What occurred was witnessed by over 70,000 people including representatives of the media, reporters from all the principal daily newspapers in Lisbon. Atheists as well witnessed the event.

“It was a very wet morning on 13th October, 1917. Suddenly the rain stopped. The clouds were wrenched apart and the sun appeared in all its splendour. Then it began to revolve on its axis like the most magnificent fire-wheel that could be imagined, taking all the colours of the rainbow and sending forth multi-colored flashes of light producing the most astounding effect.” Dr. Formigao, Professor at Santarem, Portugal.)

According to the newspaper Seculo, “the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic law - the sun danced.” Dr. Almeida Garrett of Coimbra stated: “The sun, whirling wildly seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation was terrible.”

The incident was repeated three times lasted eight to ten minutes. It has since come to be known as the Miracle of the Sun. Can this event be doubted in view of the fact that it was well documented by reliable sources?
“The great sins of the world are superficial wounds on My Heart, but the sins of a chosen soul pierce My Heart through and through.” Jesus to Saint Faustina
Last edited by joe370; Aug 13, '12 at 10:54 pm.
 
Pelly said:
As we know the Earth turns. I’ve heard that the sun moved in Fatima.
Did it affect the sun in other countries? As the Earth turns, I don’t know whether the sun miracle is true. If it did not affect other countries, then it might be preternatural.
Can you say me a scientifical reasoning to the means of this thing (I’m not an atheist)? Or maybe the sun didn’t move in Fatima?
Click to expand...
The sun “appeared” to dance to 70,000 witnesses in and around Fatima. I think I’ve read that people 30 kilometres or more from Fatima also witnessed the dancing sun.

What it did do was to confirmt the authenticity of Mary’s message to 70,000 people, including atheists, who were terrified by what was happening.

The rest of the world would not have known about it, until the witnesses said something.

There was a second miracle associated with it. It had been raining and the ground and the peoples’ clothes were saturated. Within a very short space of time, almost immediately, they suddenly found both ground and clothes were dry and clean.

Apparently scientists have calculated the energy required for this rapid drying was equivalent to a nuclear explosion of megatonnage size. The witnesses should have been evaporated.

When Christ walked on the water way back yonder on a storm tossed Galilean Sea, it was a local miracle. The only ones who saw it were his disciples cowering in a boat. But He also broke the laws of physics, in a local way. We can’t walk on water (even a magician I saw on TV recently “walking on water” (actually his shoes were going just under the surface), was obviously walking on some sort of unseen transparent platform put in place a day or so before eg. glass or polycarbonate.)

When Christ fed the 5000, he created matter (food) out of nothing. That’s a significant violation of physics, but again on a local scale. Reverse the situation, turn the newly created food back into energy, and you’d have one hell of a nuclear explosion.

The miracle of Fatima fits into the same category. God kept the miracle on a local basis. The rest of us have to make up our minds on the basis of the witness reports ie. 70,000 people at Fatima or 12 wet, miserable disciples seasick in a boat.

If we can believe the second 2000 years later, why not the first not quite a century later?
 
My cathecism book states that God’s omnipotence cannot be interpreted in a chilidsh way.
My question is: Can God violate the laws of physics? He made them.
As to my knowledge to time zones, if the sun is moved, then there will be differences in light distribution. If it happened on the sky of Fatima, I think that it would affect other places in the longitude of Fatima.
If the sun itself doesn’t move, then I don’t know.
Another dilemma: at the battle of Gibeon, the sun didn’t set down. And the Sun played a role in a prophecy about a king (sun clock prophecy, if it moves backwards, he wins years). This has a connection to Fatima.
 
Pelly said:
As to my knowledge to time zones, if the sun is moved, then there will be differences in light distribution. If it happened on the sky of Fatima, I think that it would affect other places in the longitude of Fatima.
If the sun itself doesn’t move, then I don’t know…
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When the miracle of Fatima occurred, the Sun itself did not move. If it had moved and danced about in that way, the consequences for the solar system would have been catastrophic, I expect.

The miracle consisted in two things: 1) God caused the observers to witness what appeared to be changes in the appearance of the Sun, and of its position. This included observers within a certain geographical radius of the visionaries. The miracle consisted in affecting the visual/neurological systems of the observers so that they appeared to be seeing these things.
  1. As has been previously pointed out, the wet clothes of the people were suddenly dry and the soggy ground also was suddenly dried up. This of course was also miraculous.
 
God can violate the laws of physics. As you say, He made them. But He can also do so in a way which doesn’t upset the overall system.

I’ve already pointed out to you that Christ created food out of nothing for the 5000. According to physics, energy is neither lost or created, although it may change form. But matter is “condensed energy”, so the extra food meant Christ put extra energy into the system.

Obviously there was no change to the time zones or anything else due to Fatima, or we’ve have heard about it.

What the witnesses saw was a terrifying spectacle for their own edification, which they then declared to others.

As to the battle of Gibeon, we don’t have other supporting documents. We either accept it in faith or we don’t. A problem with a lot of ancient events is a lack of supporting documents.

For example, in relation to the supernatural darkness that took over the land for 3 hours during Christ’s crucifixion, the only external reference is a third hand one -
"Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian who lived and worked in Rome about 52 A.D., “wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan was to his own time.” (Habernas, VECELJ, 93). Although the original writings of Thallus are lost to us, Julius Africanus, a Christian historian of the late second century (2221 A,D.), was familiar with them and quotes from them. One very interesting passage from Thallus relates to the darkness that enveloped the land at the time of Christ’s crucifixion. Julius Africanus writes as follows:

“Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as as an eclipse of the sun - unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably, of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1)
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From Wikipedia -
Africanus also cites the 2nd-century chronicler Phlegon of Tralles: “Phlegon records that during the reign of Tiberius Caesar there was a complete solar eclipse at full moon from the sixth to the ninth hour”. The church historian Eusebius of Caesarea (264 – 340), in his Chronicle, quotes Phlegon as saying that during the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (AD 32/33) “a great eclipse of the sun occurred at the sixth hour that excelled every other before it, turning the day into such darkness of night that the stars could be seen in heaven, and the earth moved in Bithynia, toppling many buildings in the city of Nicaea”.[14] It has been suggested that this was the eclipse of November 24, 29 AD in the first year of the Olympiad, the number Α’ (1st) having been corrupted to Δ’ (4th).[12] In a 2005 paper, Nicolas Ambraseys points out that the sources do not mention Jerusalem in connection with the earthquake.[15]

Tertullian, in his Apologeticus, tells the story of the darkness that had commenced at noon during the crucifixion; those who were unaware of the prediction, he says, “no doubt thought it an eclipse”.[16] He suggests that the evidence is still available: “You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives.”[17]

The early historian and theologian, Rufinus of Aquileia (between 340 and 345 – 410), in his expanded work of Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History, includes a part of the defense given to Maximinus by Lucian of Antioch, shortly before he suffered martyrdom in 312.[18] Lucian, like Tertullian, was also convinced that an account of the darkness that accompanied the crucifixion could be found among Roman records. Ussher recorded Lucian’s corresponding statement given to Maximinus as, “Search your writings and you shall find that, in Pilate’s time, when Christ suffered, the sun was suddenly withdrawn and a darkness followed.” [19]
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Clearly there was a darkness striking enough for ancient historians to note it. So it wasn’t just your average run-of-the-mill darkness eg. a storm, or eclipse. It must have been quite striking. In any case the maximum period of complete blackout for a solar eclipse is about seven minutes.

But there’s not much documentary evidence.
 
The “Sun” is a non-local meta-particle that is the source power for all suns, including our Sun. Hence the biblical title, “Sun of Justice” in reference to God Almighty. The interface between divine power and secular force is the junction to be exploited by the Anti-Christ. “The Force be with you.” Humans can harness force as with the Anti-Christ, prophesied to worship the god of force; and another godlet that reinforces the force; but usurpers cannot be the divine Creator and source of the creative power which is an Is-ness, the great “I Am” of the divine. There is no “Is-ness” in daisy chaining forces like extension cords, so the Bible again nails it with its scrupulous reportage of future events.

The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima is great physics as usual. Thanks, Catholic Church, for your crazy:) Kansas-like insistence on good science being good religion. This is high physics, like Transubstantiation, and Christ’s multiplication of the loaves and fishes, and walking on water, or Christ’s threat to have the rocks cry out in praise if the people did not do so. The Coral Castle guy in Florida got the multi-ton blocks moved into position by himself through reportedly working with a thesis, not of Niels Bohrs’ orbiting particles, but giving it a spiral; a kind of chirality, not regarding the direction of the orbit, but in the spiral of the orbit going this way or that way relative to the nucleus.

PS There are no “mass delusions” that all have the same general hallucination scenario. The “mass delusions” of old were occuring in whole towns that ate ergot-infested rye. Kinda like a town-wide LSD trip. Needless to say they did not share any one vision, they just all hallucinated, tripping baxxs, as they say.

The protocol should be to gather evidence and start back-engineering God’s miracles, the basis for Western science, not coming to conculsions, please. Keep an open mind. Here’s Ed Leedskalnin’s Coral Castle. Ed claimed to harness the secret used to build the pyramids and monumental structures throughout the world. There is every indication that the Great Pyramid of Giza was built by God’s monotheists of the Shem school, the orthodox who, in every age, have been blessed with divine inspiration and revelation as regards what we now call science. God is the God of science.

world-mysteries.com/mpl_coralcastle1.htm

May the Immaculate Heart, a theological gold mine of purity of intent we are called to be devoted to and emulate, reign and rule with the Sacred Heart of Jesus. AMEN
 
God exist outside of time and is all powerful, thus he is not bound by the laws of physics (which he created in the first place).
 
Here’s a picture of Ed Leedskalnin’s machine. Notice anything? Looks like Ed took out a [magnetic?] disk that orbited in the Wankel-type four-lobed channels. So are we really in a place to dismiss the Miracle of the Sun as a mass hallucination; or as violating the laws of physics; if we don’t know the laws of physics…yet? Leedskalnin’s thesis of “magnetricity” and spiral paths parallels the work of director Brian De Palma’s older brother, MIT physicist and “nut job” Bruce De Palma. While his over-unity device was debunked, Bruce De Palma may have wittingly or unwittingly stumbled on Leedskalnin’s principle in a little experiment with an electro-magnetically shielded turntable spinning over wheat, which grew in a spiral. Mega-style points for using plants to pick up on subtle currents of, dare I say, magnetricity? The little scrolls adorning the cover of Leedskalnin’s book are thought to be diagrams of this core force field, and one would probably generate such scrolls like those by attaching a pencil and paper to the Wankel-type disk. Note that the base number of his projections is 12/24, not the eight used by the author-experimenter. Consider: Thomas Aquinas, after his beatific vision, dismissed his own scholarly, voluminous work as “dung” and said everything is much simpler. That is a hallmark of God–simplicity, like fractals generated from simple formulae. It’s Satan who obfuscates and confuses with phony complexity. May the Lord enlighten the eyes of our hearts. AMEN

world-mysteries.com/coral_edswheel.jpg
 
It was said that witnesses who were several miles away who were not even part of the crowd and not even Christian witnessed the same thing too at Fatima.

Hope that answers your question.
 
Was the miracle of Gibeon witnessed by every person on the Earth? If it was, then the Earth just stopped, if it wasn’t, then it’s a Fatima-type miracle.
 
Pelly said:
Was the miracle of Gibeon witnessed by every person on the Earth? If it was, then the Earth just stopped, if it wasn’t, then it’s a Fatima-type miracle.
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Either way, it had its desired effect. How God did it is a matter of curiousity, but even if we managed to figure out the technique, that wouldn’t make one iota of difference to the message.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Another thread already exists on this subject.

mass delusion or genuine miracle?
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0DA4162066A1F39

Mass delusion on the part of 70000 people or an actual miracle predicted by the children? It was not of natural origin as it was not recorded by any astronomical observatory. Mass delusion is ruled out, in my opinion, for obvious reasons. Also, the event was witnessed up to 20 miles away by people going about their normal lives unaware of the predicted event.

The prediction alone is astonishing. The children of Fatima predicted a miracle and they delivered on it; it happened on that exact day; what are the odds of that alone…?

Here are are a couple accounts of the event:

What occurred was witnessed by over 70,000 people including representatives of the media, reporters from all the principal daily newspapers in Lisbon. Atheists as well witnessed the event.

“It was a very wet morning on 13th October, 1917. Suddenly the rain stopped. The clouds were wrenched apart and the sun appeared in all its splendour. Then it began to revolve on its axis like the most magnificent fire-wheel that could be imagined, taking all the colours of the rainbow and sending forth multi-colored flashes of light producing the most astounding effect.” Dr. Formigao, Professor at Santarem, Portugal.)

According to the newspaper Seculo, “the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic law - the sun danced.” Dr. Almeida Garrett of Coimbra stated: “The sun, whirling wildly seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation was terrible.”

The incident was repeated three times lasted eight to ten minutes. It has since come to be known as the Miracle of the Sun. Can this event be doubted in view of the fact that it was well documented by reliable sources?
“The great sins of the world are superficial wounds on My Heart, but the sins of a chosen soul pierce My Heart through and through.” Jesus to Saint Faustina
Last edited by joe370; Aug 13, '12 at 10:54 pm.
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For the record, the New York Times reported on Fatima back then.

The Portuguese newspaper O’Seculo did as well.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun Shown here.

One atheist at least, converted on the spot.

It’s an interesting note to the story that the one Pope said he saw the Miracle of the Sun in reflection in his Vatican garden.
On 13 October 1951, the papal legate, Cardinal Tedeschini, told the million people gathered at Fátima that on 30 October, 31 October, 1 November, and 8 November 1950, Pope Pius XII himself witnessed the miracle of the sun from the Vatican gardens.[3]-wikipedia article
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The Miracle of the Sun having been reported by objective atheists, why isn’t the Fatima message itself WILDLY INTERESTING?!?
"Pray the daily Rosary for peace." --Our Lady of the Rosary, Fatima, Portugal 1917

Modern skeptics suggest the “Miracle of the Sun” was a result of people looking into the Sun. But what dried up the knee-deep mud? The heat of 200,000 legs attached to 100,000 bodies?

O Seculo (a pro-government, anti-clerical, Lisbon paper):
“From the road, where the vehicles were parked and where hundreds of people who had not dared to brave the mud were congregated, one could see the immense multitude turn toward the sun, which appeared free from clouds and in its zenith. It looked like a plaque of dull silver, and it was possible to look at it without the least discomfort. It might have been an eclipse which was taking place. But at that moment a great shout went up, and one could hear the spectators nearest at hand shouting: "A miracle! A miracle!
MIRACLE OF THE SUN
Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bareheaded, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws—the sun “danced” according to the typical expression of the people.
“… The great majority admitted to having seen the trembling and the dancing of the sun; others affirmed that they saw the face of the Blessed Virgin; others, again, swore that the sun whirled on itself like a giant Catherine wheel and that it lowered itself to the earth as if to burn it in its rays. Some said they saw it change colors successively…”
 
From what I understand a miracle is an event, healing, etc that defies the laws of logic and is supernatural. God can definitely do any kind of miracle. The sun did indeed whirl and dance at Fatima but that does not necessarily mean that people in other locations noticed it. God can do that. God can do anything. He created this universe and so He can go outside of the bounds of logic if He wants to as well. After all, He created the laws of logic.
 
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