Sunday mass on DC field trip?

[Allegra]

When you ask like: "I am just a nice person asking this nice, reasonable favor", then they are having to say no to person who clearly considers herself nice and thinks she is asking a reasonable favor. That is not going to be nice for the person who is already making a personal sacrifice for the good of your child when they have to tell you, of course, no. Is it worth basically making this show of ingratitude? Why? Because you save yourself from having to deal with your own situation yourself? Because you are blowing your “I’m Catholic” trumpet by making others do your work for you?

Maybe that’s the motive to this persistent idea of promoting the good of “asking”? Yes, they* are* a kind of civil servant, paid for by taxpayers, but sometimes some taxpayers, just like some persons who have personal servants, ask too much - just because they can. The servant, being paid to serve, is put in a pinch, especially when they just slaved a 12 hour day for their employer! When their employers asks, “Just one more favor” (nicely) - its just not comfortable saying no. Yes, its very inconsiderate of that employee to ask.

Educators are continually asked for favors and considerations, and some are actually really necessary (unlike taking your child to Mass for you).

And you would be pretending that this is a Catholic issue that “needs” taking care of, so, therefore, you *need *to impose on them by asking, when it is NOT.

I guess I should stop trying to explain why asking for special favors for yourself because you are Catholic is just not appreciated and does not spread good will.

But truly, if its that important to someone, they should drive/fly to D.C. themselves and pick them up during the scheduled free time (after obtaining permission from the school) and take their own child to Mass. This may make your child seem strange to the school and to his/her fellow students, and make him’her and object of family discussion in many homes later, but at least the parent can meet their own personal view of what Sunday Obligation means - which is *not *what the Church means by it.

(But I get the idea that the OP, “smores” was just asking off the top of her head. She has not come back to advocating for asking the favor.)

Like I said before, I actually am a teacher. I’ve never been upset when someone asks me if I can accommodate their child in some way, possibly because I don’t feel insecure about telling them “no”. The question doesn’t need to be presented as “I need this special favor because I’m Catholic.” It could be presented as, “I’ve heard of this really cool, historical church that’s just two blocks from the hotel you are staying at. Would it be possible for a group of kids to go for 7AM Mass? It would be a really cool opportunity for them.” If I was thinking of going myself and it was possible within the schedule, I would have no problem agreeing to take kids. If it wasn’t possible, I’d have no problem saying “no”. As you say, most teachers are asked for things on a regular basis and they aren’t personally devastated when they have to tell someone that their “reasonable” request isn’t so reasonable.

I do agree with you that it would be a perfectly fine solution for a parent to tagalong on the trip, or even volunteer as a chaperone, and take their kid to Mass if it is possible. Of course, that isn’t always possible for every parent, but it would be a good solution. I really don’t think any body would be making fun of that family later on around their dinner table. Most people really do just mind their business. I think you are too concerned with being embarrassed by your faith and you seem to have almost justified hiding it out of fear that someone somewhere will think it’s lame.

 

[HouseArrest]

We all know there are no buses that accommodate 350 passengers.The typical tour bus accommodates more like 50-60.

In this case, though, I’d go out on a limb and say there is zero chance that a bus will be going to a church unless there is such a high concentration of interest in a church as a historical site that the tour offers different Sunday morning options and allocates buses to meet the demand to see some church. That is an extremely remote possibility. The more likely scenario is that a student or students could be allowed to take a side-trip with certain chaperones during a “free exploration” part of the trip, and they take the Metro to a church.

I was responding to this, which was included in my post:

350 bods? You are talking about seven tour buses. There’s no way such a group could be directed as a unit.

A single bus load is not a problem. School buses, etc, pull into McDonalds and the like all the time, despite the venues not being set up for groups of fifty.

The point was that there aren’t necessarily 350 kids. Yes, bussES, I wrote that incorrectly.

Except nobody knows how many there are . This poster was responding that it would be more difficult with 350 kids than it would be with a busload.

 

[Eliza10]

… [snip]…

… I do agree with you that it would be a perfectly fine solution for a parent to tagalong on the trip, or even volunteer as a chaperone, and take their kid to Mass if it is possible. Of course, that isn’t always possible for every parent, but it would be a good solution.

Okay, we have both explained our opinions and they are different. Nothing wrong with that on a discussion forum.

…
I really don’t think any body would be making fun of that family later on around their dinner table.

You are completely misreading what I am implying. I was going to explain it but then I realized I don’t want to waste any additional time carefully explaining, with examples, and with church teaching (again), only for you to misunderstand and misjudge me again. You just don’t get me or my way of explaining things. Which is a reality I have no problem accepting. Everyone is different, and we all find some people harder to understand than others.

… Most people really do just mind their business. I think you are too concerned with being embarrassed by your faith and you seem to have almost justified hiding it out of fear that someone somewhere will think it’s lame.

No. You are misjudging me. You have not read with comprehension my posts in this thread, and just leaped to a conclusion that my inner motive is concern for for my own personal embarrassment. And fear of what others think! Wow. But this can happen when you don’t closely read the posts you are responding to - and particularly if you are willing to make judgment on the motives in the hearts of others. You presumed falsely about what goes on inside me - and made a very negative judgment on that. Which is not so nice.:nope:

 

[Allegra]

Okay, we have both explained our opinions and they are different. Nothing wrong with that on a discussion forum.

You are completely misreading what I am implying. I was going to explain it but then I realized I don’t want to waste any additional time carefully explaining, with examples, and with church teaching (again), only for you to misunderstand and misjudge me again. You just don’t get me or my way of explaining things. Which is a reality I have no problem accepting. Everyone is different, and we all find some people harder to understand than others.

No. You are misjudging me. You have not read with comprehension my posts in this thread, and just leaped to a conclusion that my inner motive is concern for for my own personal embarrassment. And fear of what others think! Wow. But this can happen when you don’t closely read the posts you are responding to - and particularly if you are willing to make judgment on the motives in the hearts of others. You presumed falsely about what goes on inside me - and made a very negative judgment on that. Which is not so nice.:nope:

Your exact words, not including the eye roll.

This may make your child seem strange to the school and to his/her fellow students, and make him’her and object of family discussion in many homes later, but at least the parent can meet their own personal view of what Sunday Obligation means - which is not what the Church means by it.

But now you say you are not concerned about what others think. You are professing your own interpretation of Church teaching. Church teaching regarding Mass is that a Catholic is obligated to go when possible, but should also be joyful about the opportunity to go and be in the Real Presence of Jesus. There’s nothing lame or uncool or even rude about asking if it’s possible to attend Mass in a beautiful, historic site during a trip to another city. This does not reflect poorly on anyone.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Your exact words, not including the eye roll.

This may make your child seem strange to the school and to his/her fellow students, and make him’her and object of family discussion in many homes later, but at least the parent can meet their own personal view of what Sunday Obligation means - which is not what the Church means by it.

But now you say you are not concerned about what others think. You are professing your own interpretation of Church teaching. Church teaching regarding Mass is that a Catholic is obligated to go when possible, but should also be joyful about the opportunity to go and be in the Real Presence of Jesus. There’s nothing lame or uncool or even rude about asking if it’s possible to attend Mass in a beautiful, historic site during a trip to another city. This does not reflect poorly on anyone.

I’m not a teacher, but my gut reaction is that there’s no way this request can be fulfilled. I would think at the very least the school’s insurance company, if not lawyer, would have a heart attack when presented with the idea of a volunteer chaperone or teacher taking one or more students away from the tour group, either on foot or public transit, through a major city that the chaperone is probably not familiar with. I know as an adult, I would never want to be the responsible chaperone for that unplanned side trip. That’s a huge responsibility legally and morally, and it seems like a big thing to ask.

Have you seen school’s allow things like this? I’m not saying they dont, but it just seems counterintuitive that they would.

 

[Eliza10]

Your exact words, not including the eye roll.

This may make your child seem strange to the school and to his/her fellow students, and make him’her and object of family discussion in many homes later, but at least the parent can meet their own personal view of what Sunday Obligation means - which is not what the Church means by it.

But now you say you are not concerned about what others think. Church teaching regarding Mass is that a Catholic is obligated to go when possible, but should also be joyful about the opportunity to go and be in the Real Presence of Jesus. There’s nothing lame or uncool or even rude about asking if it’s possible to attend Mass in a beautiful, historic site during a trip to another city. This does not reflect poorly on anyone.

Please lay off. I ALREADY SAID said I did not want to explain myself to you any more because you either cannot or choose not to understand.

You are professing your own interpretation of Church teaching.

So you say. I ALREADY EXPLAINED why my explanation of Sunday Obligation is not a license to expect people to cater to you and why this is consistent with Church teaching, and I gave examples, some from the priest my husband discussed this topic at length with, some from the example of St. Bridget of Sweden. But you ignore this ALL of this and call it “professing my own interpretation” - giving no citation to back up your accusation.

I am an ex-Evangelical Protestant. I know all about personal interpretation. I am interested in being true to the teaching of the Catholic Church, and not misinterpreting her intentions. I became Catholic for a reason, and at a cost.

Its perfectly fine for you to be satisfied with your own opinion and not like mine. But I do not see good will from you towards me so I would like you to leave me alone. Just ignore me like I don’t exist.

 

[12345678]

And you would be pretending that this is a Catholic issue that “needs” taking care of, so, therefore, you *need *to impose on them by asking, when it is NOT.

I’m curious. What document makes it 100% clear to you that wanting to go a on non-required trip is a grave reason to not “need” to go to Mass? I’m asking because I have been told otherwise by another priest (once again, he was talking to me, not to the OP, which is why I tell the OP to speak with their priest). I know it is a “well accepted” fact here on CAF, but that hasn’t been my real life experience.
I’m just wondering where the blanket statement comes from, and if it works for ANY trip, ANY age, ANYwhere… as long as Mass is very difficult to do based on the planned schedule. Are we saying that you don’t need to take Mass into consideration when planning a trip, it can be an afterthought, that if it works out, great, but if you can’t do it because of the trip you planned, then oh well? Since I am guessing lack of sacred ministers isn’t the issue in this case, so are we just assuming this is clearly a “grave cause”?

“2. If because of lack of a sacred minister or for other grave cause participation in the celebration of the Eucharist is impossible, it is specially recommended that the faithful take part in the liturgy of the word if it is celebrated in the parish church or in another sacred place according to the prescriptions of the diocesan bishop, or engage in prayer for an appropriate amount of time personally or in a family or, as occasion offers, in groups of families.”

 

[Eliza10]

I’m curious. What document makes it 100% clear to you that wanting to go a on non-required trip is a grave reason to not “need” to go to Mass? I’m asking because I have been told otherwise by another priest (once again, he was talking to me, not to the OP, which is why I tell the OP to speak with their priest). I know it is a “well accepted” fact here on CAF, but that hasn’t been my real life experience.
I’m just wondering where the blanket statement comes from, and if it works for ANY trip, ANY age, ANYwhere… as long as Mass is very difficult to do based on the planned schedule. Are we saying that you don’t need to take Mass into consideration when planning a trip, it can be an afterthought, that if it works out, great, but if you can’t do it because of the trip you planned, then oh well? Since I am guessing lack of sacred ministers isn’t the issue in this case, so are we just assuming this is clearly a “grave cause”?

“2. If because of lack of a sacred minister or for other grave cause participation in the celebration of the Eucharist is impossible, it is specially recommended that the faithful take part in the liturgy of the word if it is celebrated in the parish church or in another sacred place according to the prescriptions of the diocesan bishop, or engage in prayer for an appropriate amount of time personally or in a family or, as occasion offers, in groups of families.”

Well I have to make this short, and I would prefer to have my husband here telling me what he knows becasue he knows just how to say the core thing in the fewest words, unlike me. He studied for the Anglican priesthood in London, and later converted, and knows the faith well, and discussed this topic at length with a holy priest and he remembers everything so well. But he is working outside and I am in the worst part of a terrible cold - I have not had a cold in years and forgot how lousy it feels.

Its interesting because that’s probably why we don’t hear Sunday Obligation - now its that we “take part” in the liturgy… that’s another thread though. Its also interesting that it says “engage in prayer” as an option - because my husband took up reading through the whole Mass in Latin every time he can’t make a Sunday Mass.

But can you first read my post #50 on the previous page (4) where I already explained how the Sunday Obligation is not like “Thou shalt not commit adultery”. There is a difference between disciplines and commands.

Also, its not just a non-required trip like deciding to go visit your girlfriend in the next town for the weekend. In that case you are planning your own agenda and you can figure out how to fit Mass in. I do not think I ever missed Mass on vacation, thanks especially to Masstimes.org. Last year I was at the Grand Canyon and was able to make Mass in a little trailer-type church near the edge of the canyon (unfortunately I got the idea they weren’t used to visitors like me trying to make Sunday obligation - even though they were the only church around for many miles. They were all locals, and my son and I stood out.) At any rate we could do this because it was only me planning OUR own agenda. I did not ask anyone else for a favor. I guess this is why we need to look at the whole picture and not be overly scrupulous about one interpretation of one word, like “required”.

Would you say that Friday Abstinence was important, especially in the days before Vatican I? It is still very important (even now, though, through no fault of their own, most people don’t realize it). That’s why its enlightening to see how St. Bridget dealt with this discipline when traveling. The consideration for others does matter. That’s real charity, and charity is the highest virtue. And its true humility.

 

[Allegra]

I’m not a teacher, but my gut reaction is that there’s no way this request can be fulfilled. I would think at the very least the school’s insurance company, if not lawyer, would have a heart attack when presented with the idea of a volunteer chaperone or teacher taking one or more students away from the tour group, either on foot or public transit, through a major city that the chaperone is probably not familiar with. I know as an adult, I would never want to be the responsible chaperone for that unplanned side trip. That’s a huge responsibility legally and morally, and it seems like a big thing to ask.

Have you seen school’s allow things like this? I’m not saying they dont, but it just seems counterintuitive that they would.

Yes, I have. I’ve been involved in dozens of high school and middle choir and band trips. It’s very common for small groups to have side trips such as visiting an outdoor shopping district with their chaperone, going on a walking tour in a historic district, spreading out and going to different restaurants in a small area during a meal break, individual groups going to an arcade/mini golf that is walking distance from the hotel. This is really common as long as the small group has their chaperone with them. And yes, parent volunteers have made arrangements for groups of kids to go to different churches. Two examples I can think of was a mom taking a group of kids to Mass and St. Patricks Cathedral in New York and a large group of several kids going to a musical religious service in Kansas City after attending a contest at World’s of Fun.

PS- I even recall a trip when one student’s grandparents (who lived in the city) took that student’s group out for pizza so they could see their grand-daughter. Of course this was planned in advance and the chaperone went too.

 

[Allegra]

Please lay off. I ALREADY SAID said I did not want to explain myself to you any more because you either cannot or choose not to understand.

So you say. I ALREADY EXPLAINED why my explanation of Sunday Obligation is not a license to expect people to cater to you and why this is consistent with Church teaching, and I gave examples, some from the priest my husband discussed this topic at length with, some from the example of St. Bridget of Sweden. But you ignore this ALL of this and call it “professing my own interpretation” - giving no citation to back up your accusation.

I am an ex-Evangelical Protestant. I know all about personal interpretation. I am interested in being true to the teaching of the Catholic Church, and not misinterpreting her intentions. I became Catholic for a reason, and at a cost.

Its perfectly fine for you to be satisfied with your own opinion and not like mine. But I do not see good will from you towards me so I would like you to leave me alone. Just ignore me like I don’t exist.

Why don’t you ignore me like I don’t exist?

I thought I was really clear that my suggestion was to ask without expectation of getting a “yes”. That’s what you seem to be deliberately ignoring. A genuine asking if something is a possibility is different from demanding something as if it’s a necessity or a right. The fact that going to Mass isn’t an obligation if it’s not possible does not mean that one should avoid asking if it is for fear of being the subject of some imaginary dinner conversation.