Sunday Mass time

[justme]

If the Church justifies Saturday evening Mass as a Sunday Mass by going back to the Jewish Tradition that the day starts at dusk (or in the case today as after 4pm) then how can the Church justify the celebration of a Sunday Mass after dusk on Sunday?

Logically following the Church’s argument for the Saturday evening Mass being a Sunday Mass then a Sunday evening Mass would be a Monday Mass.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Sunday is a really long day.

Sunday starts at sundown Saturday but doesn’t end until midnight Sunday. The church has decided this for the purposes of the liturgical day, which the church governs.

Holy days of Obligation are also really long since a vigil Mass on the day before ‘counts’ as the HDO Mass.

 

[justme]

Sunday is a really long day.

Sunday starts at sundown Saturday but doesn’t end until midnight Sunday. The church has decided this for the purposes of the liturgical day, which the church governs.

I do not deny that the Church governs the liturgical day.

I am strictly speaking on the argument used that it is the following of Jewish Tradition as to when the day starts.

When this sort of discussion comes up it invariably comes to the Jewish Tradition.

Holy days of Obligation are also really long since a vigil Mass on the day before ‘counts’ as the HDO Mass.

Again, if the day starts at dusk then the vigil Mass on the day before ‘counts’ because it is actually occurring on the day of the Holy Day as the vigil Mass must occur after Vespers which would be dusk.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

If the Church justifies Saturday evening Mass as a Sunday Mass by going back to the Jewish Tradition that the day starts at dusk (or in the case today as after 4pm) then how can the Church justify the celebration of a Sunday Mass after dusk on Sunday?

Logically following the Church’s argument for the Saturday evening Mass being a Sunday Mass then a Sunday evening Mass would be a Monday Mass.

I appreciate that at some level it may not seem totally consistent. However, it may just be more sensible to view it as the Church making it that much easier to fulfill the obligation. I know that in college towns late Sunday evening Masses are fairly common and can be well attended.

 

[PacoG]

If the Church justifies Saturday evening Mass as a Sunday Mass by going back to the Jewish Tradition that the day starts at dusk (or in the case today as after 4pm) then how can the Church justify the celebration of a Sunday Mass after dusk on Sunday?

Logically following the Church’s argument for the Saturday evening Mass being a Sunday Mass then a Sunday evening Mass would be a Monday Mass.

Sunday is a privileged day…it starts at sundown Saturday and continues until 11:59 p.m. the next day.

Jesus gave the Chuch the authority to decide matters of faith. I put a childlike trust in her.

 

[justme]

I appreciate that at some level it may not seem totally consistent. However, it may just be more sensible to view it as the Church making it that much easier to fulfill the obligation. I know that in college towns late Sunday evening Masses are fairly common and can be well attended.

Sunday is a privileged day…it starts at sundown Saturday and continues until 11:59 p.m. the next day.

Jesus gave the Chuch the authority to decide matters of faith. I put a childlike trust in her.

Again, this is not being denied.

I am asking how those who argue using the Jewish Tradition of setting the start of a day continue to use this in the argument.

 

[Vico]

If the Church justifies Saturday evening Mass as a Sunday Mass by going back to the Jewish Tradition that the day starts at dusk (or in the case today as after 4pm) then how can the Church justify the celebration of a Sunday Mass after dusk on Sunday?

Logically following the Church’s argument for the Saturday evening Mass being a Sunday Mass then a Sunday evening Mass would be a Monday Mass.

This topic comes up regularly on this forum. There are two kinds of days, from the Roman civil law, midnight to midnight, and the Jewish sunset to sunset. The day is canonically defined as that of the civil law. The Holy See has made it possible to fulfill the obligation (per civil day) from the vigil of the preceding (civil) day, it does not matter what liturgical readings are used on that vigil for the purpose of the obligation. Fasting and abstinence are also of the civil day.

 

[justme]

This topic comes up regularly on this forum. There are two kinds of days, from the Roman civil law, midnight to midnight, and the Jewish sunset to sunset. The day is canonically defined as that of the civil law. The Holy See has made it possible to fulfill the obligation (per civil day) from the vigil of the preceding (civil) day, it does not matter what liturgical readings are used on that vigil for the purpose of the obligation. Fasting and abstinence are also of the civil day.

This answer is closer to what I was asking but… I am not asking nor do I deny that Saturday evening Masses (or vigil Masses) fulfill the obligation.

Maybe it is impossible to answer how one can logically use the argument of Jewish Tradition to justify this.

 

[runningdude]

The Church set the requirement for Sunday worship. The Church get to decide how to meet its own requirement. It doesn’t need any justification.

 

[Vico]

This answer is closer to what I was asking but… I am not asking nor do I deny that Saturday evening Masses (or vigil Masses) fulfill the obligation.

Maybe it is impossible to answer how one can logically use the argument of Jewish Tradition to justify this.

Regardless of ancient practices, midnight to midnight day was established in 1917 code of canon law. Vigil Masses did not to fulfill festal obligations until 1969. The purpose of the allowing the vigil was for the spiritual benefit of Catholics who must work or travel on Sundays and holy days of obligation.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Regardless of ancient practices, midnight to midnight day was established in 1917 code of canon law. Vigil Masses did not to fulfill festal obligations until 1969. The purpose of the allowing the vigil was for the spiritual benefit of Catholics who must work or travel on Sundays and holy days of obligation.

Technically the Saturday evening Mass is not a vigil Mass, it is a Sunday Mass.

 

[Vico]

Technically the Saturday evening Mass is not a vigil Mass, it is a Sunday Mass.

The Roman Missal had this “The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight. However, the celebration of Sunday and of Solemnities begins already on the evening of the previous day.”

A Mass on Saturday evening is a Saturday Mass because the day is Saturday. And vigil Masses have propers, anticipated Masses use the propers of the next day.

 

[MissRose73]

I am thankful for Saturday evening Mass counting for Sunday obligation as I am one of many who must work on Sunday due to my occupation always needing staffing. At least my manager allows me off early enough on Saturdays so I can go to Mass and be there on time.

 

[justme]

I would kindly ask that if you chose to respond to this thread that you actually read the question and respond to that rather than responding to what you ‘think’ the question is.

Here is the question once again.

If the Church justifies Saturday evening Mass as a Sunday Mass by going back to the Jewish Tradition that the day starts at dusk (or in the case today as after 4pm) then how can the Church justify the celebration of a Sunday Mass after dusk on Sunday?

Logically following the Church’s argument for the Saturday evening Mass being a Sunday Mass then a Sunday evening Mass would be a Monday Mass.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

The Church set the requirement for Sunday worship. The Church get to decide how to meet its own requirement. It doesn’t need any justification.

This.

 

[justme]

The Church set the requirement for Sunday worship. The Church get to decide how to meet its own requirement. It doesn’t need any justification.

This.

Okay, then let me amend my question.

When this question comes up why do some people refer to the Jewish Tradition as a justification? Why not just answer as runningdude did by saying “This is what the Church has decided.”?

But having said that we must remember what Thomas Aquinas said, “proof from authority is the weakest form of proof”.

Is there any justification put forward by the Church? Please remember that saying “I said so” is not a real justification and pointing out that this is an accommodation for those who can not attend a Sunday Mass is also not a justification.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

You only need a justification if there is anyone who can question or who might overturn your ruling.

I do not have proof documents in front of me, but the way I have understood the issue is that the Church wanted to solve a pastoral problem of people not being able to easily get to Mass. Yes,people have always worked on Sundays, but in the past it wasn’t as much of a problem. As customs changed - commutes got longer, more people worked on Sundays, religious tolerance went down, etc. - the church determined that changes needed to be made. Like all things in the church, the period leading up to the change was long and plenty of discussion happened that ordinary folks weren’t aware of at the time.

Once the Church determined on the change (allowing Saturday evening Masses to count as Sunday), they also needed to put perimeters into place because they weren’t saying that Saturday morning Masses = Sunday Masses. So, the timeframe of the Jewish day from sundown to sundown was chosen. In the US that general means about 4pm since the sun doesn’t set at the same time everyday.

Because the Church legislates the liturgical day and there is no counter authority, what the Church says stands. The use of the traditional Jewish day is an explanation for the ruling, not a justification. There doesn’t need to be a justification despite what Aquinas said about other arguments.

 

[FrDavid96]

Okay, then let me amend my question.

When this question comes up why do some people refer to the Jewish Tradition as a justification? Why not just answer as runningdude did by saying “This is what the Church has decided.”?

But having said that we must remember what Thomas Aquinas said, “proof from authority is the weakest form of proof”.

Is there any justification put forward by the Church? Please remember that saying “I said so” is not a real justification and pointing out that this is an accommodation for those who can not attend a Sunday Mass is also not a justification.

Here’s the thing. Yes, the idea of attending Mass in the evening is based upon the Jewish custom, and the early Christian way of reckoning days as beginning at sunset. However, it’s not a matter of strictly following that method, it’s merely based upon it. The Church is taking 2 different methods of determining days and “merging” them.

If you’ll allow me to explain it, it actually is a justification to say that it is an accommodation for those who cannot attend on Sunday morning. The point here is that the Church is being generous and pastoral in making it as easy as possible for people to fulfill the Sunday obligation. In one sense, the Church is saying “we are being generous by allowing the use of both systems (beginning at sunset and beginning at midnight) side by side.” The value of making it possible for more people to attend Sunday mass is more important than the value of choosing one method or the other and being consistent across the week.

Here’s a good paragraph from Bl John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter Dies Domini
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

1. Because the faithful are obliged to attend Mass unless there is a grave impediment, Pastors have the corresponding duty to offer to everyone the real possibility of fulfilling the precept. The provisions of Church law move in this direction, as for example in the faculty granted to priests, with the prior authorization of the diocesan Bishop, to celebrate more than one Mass on Sundays and holy days, the institution of evening Masses and the provision which allows the obligation to be fulfilled from Saturday evening onwards, starting at the time of First Vespers of Sunday. From a liturgical point of view, in fact, holy days begin with First Vespers. Consequently, the liturgy of what is sometimes called the “Vigil Mass” is in effect the “festive” Mass of Sunday, at which the celebrant is required to preach the homily and recite the Prayer of the Faithful.

To make it easier to read, I’ve removed the footnotes.

Also, note that “vigil Mass” is only in the English translation. The Latin actually says praefestivae and not “vigil”–the translator’s choice of “vigil” causes some confusion. So the Saturday evening Mass is not the “pre-feast” Mass but the Mass of the feast itself (festiva)

“Propterea Missae liturgia nonnumquam «praefestivae» appellatae, quae vero reapse pleno iure «festiva» est, dominici diei est,…”

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_lt.html

 

[Splagchnizomai]

Here’s the thing. Yes, the idea of attending Mass in the evening is based upon the Jewish custom, and the early Christian way of reckoning days as beginning at sunset. However, it’s not a matter of strictly following that method, it’s merely based upon it. The Church is taking 2 different methods of determining days and “merging” them.

If you’ll allow me to explain it, it actually is a justification to say that it is an accommodation for those who cannot attend on Sunday morning. The point here is that the Church is being generous and pastoral in making it as easy as possible for people to fulfill the Sunday obligation. In one sense, the Church is saying “we are being generous by allowing the use of both systems (beginning at sunset and beginning at midnight) side by side.” The value of making it possible for more people to attend Sunday mass is more important than the value of choosing one method or the other and being consistent across the week.

Here’s a good paragraph from Bl John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter Dies Domini
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

1. Because the faithful are obliged to attend Mass unless there is a grave impediment, Pastors have the corresponding duty to offer to everyone the real possibility of fulfilling the precept. The provisions of Church law move in this direction, as for example in the faculty granted to priests, with the prior authorization of the diocesan Bishop, to celebrate more than one Mass on Sundays and holy days, the institution of evening Masses and the provision which allows the obligation to be fulfilled from Saturday evening onwards, starting at the time of First Vespers of Sunday. From a liturgical point of view, in fact, holy days begin with First Vespers. Consequently, the liturgy of what is sometimes called the “Vigil Mass” is in effect the “festive” Mass of Sunday, at which the celebrant is required to preach the homily and recite the Prayer of the Faithful.

To make it easier to read, I’ve removed the footnotes.

Also, note that “vigil Mass” is only in the English translation. The Latin actually says praefestivae and not “vigil”–the translator’s choice of “vigil” causes some confusion. So the Saturday evening Mass is not the “pre-feast” Mass but the Mass of the feast itself (festiva)

“Propterea Missae liturgia nonnumquam «praefestivae» appellatae, quae vero reapse pleno iure «festiva» est, dominici diei est,…”

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_lt.html

Wonderful post! Thank you!

How do other languages translate it? What is the Vigil Mass called in Spanish, German, etc?

 

[FrDavid96]

Wonderful post! Thank you!

How do other languages translate it? What is the Vigil Mass called in Spanish, German, etc?

I don’t know about other languages.

The point I was making at the end is that the English translation says “vigil Mass” where the Latin says “praefestivae” and I’ve seen some comments (indeed, until I read the Latin I made them myself) that we shouldn’t be calling the Saturday evening Mass a “vigil” anymore; unless of course, the Mass is a “true Vigil” like the Pentecost Vigil or especially the Easter Vigil. But from reading the Latin, that’s not the point that Bl John Paul was actually making. What he was saying is that Saturday evening (or the evening before any solemnity) is not the “pre-feast” but the actual feast itself.

If we call the Saturday evening Mass the “vigil Mass” because we’re trying to make the point that this Mass is somehow “less than” the Mass on Sunday morning, we shouldn’t be doing that. The Mass on Saturday evening is the Mass of the feast itself, it’s not in any way whatsoever less-than the Mass on Sunday.

On the other hand, there’s nothing wrong with calling the Saturday evening Mass a “vigil” so long as we mean that in the proper way. Let’s say that I have a Mass at my parish on Saturday evening at 10 PM. Just a Sunday in Ordinal Time, not necessarily a feast like Pentecost. I could legitimately call it a “Vigil Mass” because it would be a Mass in the night–which is what the word “vigil” means. It means “to stay awake.” It would not be wrong to use the word “vigil” as long as we do not use the word in such a way that we’re trying to imply that such a Mass is less important or less festive than the one on Sunday morning–because it is no. The Saturday evening Mass is no different from the Sunday morning Mass. They’re equal in every way.