Sunday obligation, mortal sin

[CRW]

The priest that preached the homily on why it’s not a mortal sin to miss mass should be given a kick in the *** - or a catechism - which explicitly contradicts his claim saying that missing mass is a grave sin (unless for a serious reason like long distance or illness etc.) - you should write to your bishop that a priest in his diocese teaches falsehood publicly in church

**And to the Protestant who said “that’s not in the Bible” - well, your argument isn’t in the Bible either, so I can just as well dismiss it**E

2 Thessalonians, 2-15

So then brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by the word of mouth or by the letter. 2 Timothy, 4-3-4: For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

Our brothers in Christ do not (usually) hold true to Traditions or teaching of the Church. Although they believe that the scriptures cannot lie, they sometime ignore any/or all references to Traditions.

Mt 15-3, Mk 7-9, Col 2-8, 1 Cor 11-2, 2 Thess 2-15 and 2 Thess 3-6.

 

[InLight247]

I think it is much more mutual than that and I repeat, “the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath”. I think that’s pretty clear.

…

You twisted the meaning of this Bible verse.
Sabbath is for man so it does not prevent man to do good deeds on Sunday. It does not mean if man does not feel like to go to Church man does not have to go.

I don’t know about using Monday’s Mass to replace Sunday’s obligation. But I do know every house has a house rule, every school has a school rule, every church has a church rule.

If one belongs to Catholic Church, one follows Catholic Church’s rule. It is said to worship on Sunday, then worship on Sunday. It is great if you want to do additional on Monday. There is no legalism.

There is no knife, either. We are talking about a relationship here. If we love someone, we will naturally want to be with the person. Talking about other form of worship, if we love Jesus, where else will be better to spend time with him where his real presence is?

 

[patg]

There is no knife. We have a free choice.

What? That’s the whole point of this thread - questioning why the church is wielding a knife (the title was “Sunday obligation, mortal sin…”).

Justice is not torture. Christ spoke of hell often, was He insulting us?

What does that have to do with what I said? Jesus spoke of punishment as a result of the rejection of God, not for worshipping God on Monday instead of Sunday.

Only murderers and rapists are worthy of hell? So, the measure of morality is to be better than a murderer?

That’s not at all what I was saying - I am questioning the assumption by many in the church that to go to church on Monday rather than Sunday is the moral equivalent of murder in their eyes.

Obeying the law is not legalism.

Correct, obeying is not legalism. Having an arbitrary law that has nothing to do with faith or morals is.

Doing the will of Christ is no legalism.

But doing the will of the church may be.

Anyway, regardless of the above comments, it appears no one can answer the simple question of why the church insists on threatening everyone with eternal torture if they do not present themselves at a certain place on a certain day. It’s funny there is no similar threat for not participating fully - you just have to be there! That’s pretty much legalism at its finest.

 

[fix]

What? That’s the whole point of this thread - questioning why the church is wielding a knife (the title was “Sunday obligation, mortal sin…”).

What does that have to do with what I said? Jesus spoke of punishment as a result of the rejection of God, not for worshipping God on Monday instead of Sunday.

That’s not at all what I was saying - I am questioning the assumption by many in the church that to go to church on Monday rather than Sunday is the moral equivalent of murder in their eyes.

Correct, obeying is not legalism. Having an arbitrary law that has nothing to do with faith or morals is.

But doing the will of the church may be.

Anyway, regardless of the above comments, it appears no one can answer the simple question of why the church insists on threatening everyone with eternal torture if they do not present themselves at a certain place on a certain day. It’s funny there is no similar threat for not participating fully - you just have to be there! That’s pretty much legalism at its finest.

The Church as the authority from Christ to bind and loose. No one is coerced to go to mass. They have a free will. If they choose to not to obey God as He commands through His Church there are consequences. None of that is contrary to the Gospel in fact it is very consistent.

 

[CRW]

What? That’s the whole point of this thread - questioning why the church is wielding a knife (the title was “Sunday obligation, mortal sin…”).

What does that have to do with what I said? Jesus spoke of punishment as a result of the rejection of God, not for worshipping God on Monday instead of Sunday.

That’s not at all what I was saying - I am questioning the assumption by many in the church that to go to church on Monday rather than Sunday is the moral equivalent of murder in their eyes.

Correct, obeying is not legalism. Having an arbitrary law that has nothing to do with faith or morals is.

But doing the will of the church may be.

Anyway, regardless of the above comments, it appears no one can answer the simple question of why the church insists on threatening everyone with eternal torture if they do not present themselves at a certain place on a certain day. It’s funny there is no similar threat for not participating fully - you just have to be there! That’s pretty much legalism at its finest.

I agree, that you believe, that no one can answer your question to your satisfaction. IMHO only, to be Catholic, is to believe in all the teachings of the Catholic Church. When we pick which rules, rites, moral issues etc., we are making our on Church. Sunday Mass is and will always be, our own free will. If one believes it is his choice so be it. I also believe, in our own best interest, that God felt that man needed one day, separated from the world issues, to rest and adore him. Our Pope just wrote a beautiful article concerning the need to rest, to enjoy life, and rest as God planned from the 1st chapter of the bible. God Bless.

 

[heisenburg]

Sin or not… It can be summed up pretty easy.

When we dont go to church for nonessential reasons (ie, sleep late, dont feel like it, meeting family later) who is the focus on. the individual. You are saying that you are doing what YOU want, not what God wants is more important. unless you are sick in bed, or do not have access to a church for service, there realy is no reason.

The correct answer is not “god only wants me to go when I want to go” this puts the focus on the individual.

The correct answer is also not “If i go when i dont feel liike it, i wont get anything out of it”
How do you know. Are you going to tell em that god is not wanting to speak to you if you are in a rut.

Keep holy the sabath is a good start as mentioned. response is well, if you study, its ok. again, what is the focus, I am not going because I would rather sit at home a read the bible with my spouse. Again, who is the focus.

If you ask "where is it in the bible wher eit says anything about church. Historically speaking, they called there “service” breaking of the bread. anywhere that you see any mention in the letters of 'breaking of the bread is talking about mass/service/church. there are versus that also mention meet together for the breaking of the bread often.

If you are also going to say that meeting with a small group of beleivers in bible study also counts. This is better, but still not there. Why? you have no teacher. what ends up happening is that the ‘understanding’ that will come will come from the strongest personality. Scripture talks frequently about the importance of teacher. The primise of Enoch and Phillip once again arises. How can I understand if no one will teach me.

I know the common retort to this is “where ever there is a group of you, so am i” this is true. but again, this doesnt mean that he is going to be teaching you. It doesnt say where ever there are mroe than one of you gather in my name, ill sit ya down and teach you.

if 1) church leaders are important as it is mentioned in scripture and 2) meeting in service is importance (though called breaking of the bread) as it is mentioned in scripture. When you combine that with 3) keep holy the sabbath. What exactly does that mean. Meet together in service so the teacher can teach you on the sabbath.

ALL SCRIPTURE>

Not goign because you are not in the mood puts you above god.
If Scripture tells us that we are to do everythign so that it points to and glorifies god, how can not going be glorifying god

in christ

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

What? That’s the whole point of this thread - questioning why the church is wielding a knife (the title was “Sunday obligation, mortal sin…”).

Anyway, regardless of the above comments, it appears no one can answer the simple question of why the church insists on threatening everyone with eternal torture if they do not present themselves at a certain place on a certain day. It’s funny there is no similar threat for not participating fully - you just have to be there! That’s pretty much legalism at its finest.

Because people are so childish.
Threatening them with eternal damnation is the only way of preventing them from making petty excuses. There are a few people for whom it might be extremely inconvenient to attend a Sunday Mass, but are mature, responsible Catholics who would resume attendance at the first reasonable opportunity. However if you allow these people to miss Mass, pretty soon everyone is missing Mass because football is on. Then the football teams start scheduling matches for Sundays.

90% of life is showing up. If you show up for Mass, you are 90% there. You’d have a very good case for salvation, even if you never did anything else worthy of note. Going through the motions means that, when the day of challenge comes and Catholics have to choose between Jesus and the evil dogma of the times, at least you have a functioning community to fall back on. The church can’t survive people being too indifferent to attend.

 

[patg]

Because people are so childish.
Threatening them with eternal damnation is the only way of preventing them from making petty excuses. There are a few people for whom it might be extremely inconvenient to attend a Sunday Mass, but are mature, responsible Catholics who would resume attendance at the first reasonable opportunity. However if you allow these people to miss Mass, pretty soon everyone is missing Mass because football is on. Then the football teams start scheduling matches for Sundays.

I agree up to some point (not sure what that point is exactly). Here are a few thoughts:

You said “Threatening them with eternal damnation is the only way of preventing them from making petty excuses.” I think maybe this puts too much of the responsibility on the attendees and totally relieves the clergy/liturgists of having to put anything uplifting into the services. Threatening the attendee guarantees that there will be bodies in the pews regardless of how poorly the ceremony is presented. The abysmal preacher giving a mind-numbing sermon has no incentive to do any better when there is a totally captive audience. Likewise for the music, serving, readers etc.

You also said “However if you allow these people to miss Mass, pretty soon everyone is missing Mass because football is on.” And what is wrong with that? The mass on Monday or any other day is the same as on Sunday. I went to mass almost every day last week but skipped Sunday. Is there something inherently immoral about this? Not that I can see.

90% of life is showing up. If you show up for Mass, you are 90% there. You’d have a very good case for salvation, even if you never did anything else worthy of note. Going through the motions means that, when the day of challenge comes and Catholics have to choose between Jesus and the evil dogma of the times, at least you have a functioning community to fall back on. The church can’t survive people being too indifferent to attend.

I don’t know about that - I’ve always liked the quote by Billy Graham (also used by Garrison Keillor): “You can no more become a Christian by sitting in church than you can become a car by sleeping in your garage.”

 

[InLight247]

Sitting in the church may not make a Christian.
Not sitting in the church definitely will not make a Christian.

“We command you, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to avoid any brother who wanders from the straight path and does not follow the tradition you received from us. You know how you ought to imitate us. (2 Thessalonians 3:6-7) People always gather together and worship God in the early Church.

 

[CRW]

I went to mass almost every day last week but skipped Sunday. Is there something inherently immoral about this? Not that I can see.

Matthew 16:19: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Deposit of faith, both biblical and historical; from Christ to our Pope.

 

[InLight247]

I went to mass almost every day last week but skipped Sunday. Is there something inherently immoral about this? Not that I can see.

In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:

• Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
• Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
• Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

It is not that missing Sunday Mass is an automatic mortal sin, and make one lose his salvaion.

If you went to Mass every day and didn’t think missing that Sunday was a mortal sin, then it did not fit the mortal sin criteria. So it wouldn’t be a mortal sin.

I think the key point is if a person deliberately not follow the Church tradition and rule, refuse to respect the Church teachings, clearly know the Church rule, tradition, and Bible teaching, clearly know what his behavior is defined as a mortal sin, but still do it as he likes anyway, then it is a mortal sin.

 

[drforjc]

It’s church teaching that the Mass is the most perfect act of worship possible since it is the representation of the sacrifice of Calvary.
Ergo, nothing else is a better act of worship.

There are, of course, duties and circumstances that excuse one’s obligation but in the absence of these we are obligated to attend.
Sure, wanting to attend is preferable to being obligated but that does not remove the obligation.

 

[chutton]

I have found this whole discussion quite interesting as I both agree and disagree with some of what is said. I certainly think the Bible is crystal clear on the importance of meeting together and fellowshipping. If we fail to do this we are certainly going to drift further from God and our faith will be hindered and a person may even stop walking in their faith entirely eventually. So, that is abundantly clear.

However, what I find interesting is that somehow when I look at my own Protestant church and others that I have attended, we somehow DO have a functioning community and people DO attend regularily and DO want to be fellowshipping, not just feeling like they have to, despite not having this formalized as a mortal sin as your Catholic faith does. It is like any habit–at times it is more difficult then other times (I really really admire the single mothers who show up each Sunday with their little ones in tow…what dedication and inspiration and a blessing to their little ones), at times it is a joy and truly effortless as we worship God and in turn are changed. However, if I was to miss a Sunday worship service I doubt my whole salvation would be in jeopardy. If it became a habit to miss, then the chances of me falling away from my walk with Christ would certainly be more and more increased. So, as a result it is obviously the best choice to make it a habit that you do your best to always keep, whether your heart is in it or not…sounds a bit like exercise here!

The part of this whole discussion I question is whether it is a salvation issue…that one or two times you miss a mass that your salvation could somehow be in jeopardy. Somehow I think our protestant church has found a balance with strongly encouraging the habit of “meeting together” and fellowshipping and also putting it hand-in-hand with it being a choice that comes from the heart, not about following a rule.

Just my two cents as I follow this thread.

In Christ

 

[InLight247]

… However, if I was to miss a Sunday worship service I doubt my whole salvation would be in jeopardy. If it became a habit to miss, then the chances of me falling away from my walk with Christ would certainly be more and more increased. So, as a result it is obviously the best choice to make it a habit that you do your best to always keep, whether your heart is in it or not…sounds a bit like exercise here!

The part of this whole discussion I question is whether it is a salvation issue…that one or two times you miss a mass that your salvation could somehow be in jeopardy. Somehow I think our protestant church has found a balance with strongly encouraging the habit of “meeting together” and fellowshipping and also putting it hand-in-hand with it being a choice that comes from the heart, not about following a rule.

Just my two cents as I follow this thread.

In Christ

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. Actually, I don’t think we are saying if a person missed 1 or 2 Sunday Mass, the salvation is jeopardized.
But if a person habitually missing Sunday worship on purpose, it is a mortal sin. The unconfessed mortal sin is very detrimental to the soul and to his salvation.

There is a difference between Catholic Mass and Protestant fellowship. Mass is a Sacrament, a Holy Sacrifice, not just “meeting together” or social fellowship. Solemn Mass on Sunday makes the Sabbath Day holy. That is according to the commandment. That’s why missing it on purpose with no good reason is a mortal sin.

 

[chutton]

There is a difference between Catholic Mass and Protestant fellowship. Mass is a Sacrament, a Holy Sacrifice, not just “meeting together” or social fellowship. /QUOTE]

I respect what you are saying and am so appreciative of the insight you offer. However, I would like to respectfully say that in my own experience, our worship services are certainly not just meeting together and socializing in the sense that you were suggesting. Lifting our voices in praise and honoring God and praying and meditating on His Word and edifying each other and encouraging each other to walk more boldly for Christ and to surrender everything to Christ and remembering the sacrafice of Christ on the cross, and encouraging each other to spread the good news of peace with God and forgiveness of sins and so much more…that is not just meeting together and socializing in the sense that you are suggesting. We come away changed by our very holy God and Savior. And it isn’t something I would want to miss out on!

Anyways, I have so much appreciated all that I have learned from my catholic brothers and sisters over the past few months…and I keep looking forward to learning more!

In Christ.

 

[InLight247]

chutton:

I did not mean to say Protestant’s worship is only a social fellowship. Protestant’s gathering usually has warm social fellowship atmosphere which is a good thing. What’s in my mind was that Mass is a Holy Sacrifice and Eucharist is the real Presence, and that is a major difference between Catholic Mass and Protestant’s worship. I typed my previous response without refining my wording. I apologize.

 

[CRW]

Chutton,

despite not having this formalized as a mortal sin as your Catholic faith does

2 John 5:16-17: There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

1 John 1 -9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John 20-21-23: Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

1 Cor 10-16-17: The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body.

I pray that any post I made did not imply that salvation was lost if one missed “a Mass”. Catholicism gives equal importance to Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Dr. Martin Luther coined the phrase sola scriptura (scripture alone) for Protestant Christians. Catholic Church’s Magisterium concerning doctrinal issues and the authority to preach and teach in his name (Luke 10:16) safeguard us from theological and moral differences that arise from private interpretation of scripture.

Yes we are taught that missing a Sunday Mass, without serious reason, is a mortal sin and is death to the soul. If we do not confess this sin, we could go to hell. However, reviewing the quotes above, Jesus Divine Mercy provided the means for ordained ministers (by the Holy Spirit) to hear our confessions and forgive our sins. His blood, body, soul and divinity, purifies our soul.

I must admit, I cannot understand how one can not apply the rule of sola scriptura to support the Catholic position concerning confessions and his true presents in communion. I do pray that as one body in Christ, we will all be one communion of saints. God Bless.

 

[fix]

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. Actually, I don’t think we are saying if a person missed 1 or 2 Sunday Mass, the salvation is jeopardized.
But if a person habitually missing Sunday worship on purpose, it is a mortal sin. The unconfessed mortal sin is very detrimental to the soul and to his salvation.

Why would intentionally missing one mass not be a mortal sin?

 

[CRW]

Why would intentionally missing one mass not be a mortal sin?

IMHO intentionally missing Mass is always a grave sin that kills the soul, requires a sorrowful confession and amendment of heart. Many will disagree I am sure, but it is our teaching of the Church - MAGISTERIUM.

 

[fix]

IMHO intentionally missing Mass is always a grave sin that kills the soul, requires a sorrowful confession and amendment of heart. Many will disagree I am sure, but it is our teaching of the Church - MAGISTERIUM.

Exactly.