Sunday obligation, mortal sin

[InLight247]

I have posted the answer to this question in another thread a while ago. But I will re-state my view point one more time here.

I actually discussed this particular issue with my pastor when my college kid missed a Sunday Mass with the knowledge that Sunday Mass is our obligation. With the given situation, my pastor told me that I had no right to judge my child’s soul or anyone else’s soul just base on the fact he or she missed one Sunday Mass, to say that the person committed a mortal sin.

A mortal sin has to meet these criteria:
•Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
•Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
•Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

Only God knows the person’s inner mentality and situation when he made the choice. Judgment is up to God, and up to the priest during confession, not for us to do. We should never make a statement that so and so committed a mortal sin. Defining a mortal sin for a particular case is not always “A, so B”. We can theoretically categorize a behavior as a mortal sin, but we can never actually apply it to anyone from our own viewpoint.

 

[fix]

I have posted the answer to this question in another thread a while ago. But I will re-state my view point one more time here.

I actually discussed this particular issue with my pastor when my college kid missed a Sunday Mass with the knowledge that Sunday Mass is our obligation. With the given situation, my pastor told me that I had no right to judge my child’s soul or anyone else’s soul just base on the fact he or she missed one Sunday Mass, to say that the person committed a mortal sin.

A mortal sin has to meet these criteria:
•Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
•Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
•Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

Only God knows the person’s inner mentality and situation when he made the choice. Judgment is up to God, and up to the priest during confession, not for us to do. We should never make a statement that so and so committed a mortal sin. Defining a mortal sin for a particular case is not always “A, so B”. We can theoretically categorize a behavior as a mortal sin, but we can never actually apply it to anyone from our own viewpoint.

That is not the issue. The point is intentionally missing one mass is objectively a mortal sin. It cuts off sanctifying grace. One who dies in such a state warrants damnation.

Now, we cannot know the state of anyone’s soul before God. That means we can’t say so and so is going to hell because he did not go to mass. BUT, we can say generically anyone who intentionally misses mass commits a grave sin. We do not know the subjective state of their soul.

Can you see the difference?

You correctly list the three criteria. That does not mean we cannot know if the matter is grave. It means we cannot know how culpable one is before God.

 

[CRW]

is there any evidence that the early church believed that you could lose your salvation by failing to attend Sunday Mass as the Catholic Church teaches nowadays?

Do you think it’s possible that this passage in the Bible teaches just that (it seems to connect not attending Mass with mortal sin…)

Heb 10:23-27

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.

I pasted the original question in this thread. I believe the question was not concerned with judgment of Christians who missed Mass; but, on if the Church still taught that it is a mortal sin to miss Mass. Many post expanded on the teaching of the Church. I agree with you 100 percent that we are not to judge individuals, and I do not believe that most who made post to this thread did not. However, pointing out Church teachings is not a fact of judgment. If I fail to attend Mass this Sunday I will receive a lot of calls. Not to judge me on why I did not attend, but to ensure that I am OK, do I need their assistance, etc. I think a parent should discuss all possibilities with their children, not to judge them, to make sure that they have a sound Church teaching. The love of our Lord is born in the home, IMHO. God Bless.

 

[InLight247]

Can you see the difference?

You correctly list the three criteria. That does not mean we cannot know if the matter is grave. It means we cannot know how culpable one is before God.

That is why I said “We can theoretically categorize a behavior as a mortal sin, but we can never actually apply it to anyone from our own viewpoint.”

Peace!

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I agree up to some point (not sure what that point is exactly). Here are a few thoughts:

You said “Threatening them with eternal damnation is the only way of preventing them from making petty excuses.” I think maybe this puts too much of the responsibility on the attendees and totally relieves the clergy/liturgists of having to put anything uplifting into the services. Threatening the attendee guarantees that there will be bodies in the pews regardless of how poorly the ceremony is presented. The abysmal preacher giving a mind-numbing sermon has no incentive to do any better when there is a totally captive audience. Likewise for the music, serving, readers etc.

You also said “However if you allow these people to miss Mass, pretty soon everyone is missing Mass because football is on.” And what is wrong with that? The mass on Monday or any other day is the same as on Sunday. I went to mass almost every day last week but skipped Sunday. Is there something inherently immoral about this? Not that I can see.

I don’t know about that - I’ve always liked the quote by Billy Graham (also used by Garrison Keillor): “You can no more become a Christian by sitting in church than you can become a car by sleeping in your garage.”

A Catholic Mass is not dependent on the ability of the priest or musicians to entertain. I agree that if you have full attendance then there might be some lazy clergy who abuse the situation to do nothing. There will also be old and ill priests, or priests who simply don’t have a talent for preaching.

Sunday is the club’s general meeting. It is important to designate some meetings as “special”. Missing Sunday whilst going every other day is not nearly as bad as going two whole weeks without stepping foot inside a church, but it is against the rules and the spirit of the rules, which is that the community meets on Sundays for worship. If the Pope wanted to he could put the sabbath back to Saturday, or to Thursday as the day of the Last Supper, he’d even have a case for removing the Sunday obligation altogether, though not for abolishing the idea of the sabbath, which is something God-given.

Billy Graham is a non-Catholic and is wrong. His insight that Christianity should be more than just going through the motions is fair enough, but there is a value in going through the motions. If you are baptised and a regular Sunday Mass attender, you are a practising Catholic, no doubt about it.

 

[rwoehmke]

It is really quite simple. Through the power of the keys given to Peter and his successors, the power to bind and to loose the Church (Pope) has the authority to bind one under pain of mortal sin to do or not do things. Whenever we got the Sunday obligation to attend Mass hardly matters, as at the current moment all Catholics, not persons of other Faiths, are bound under pain of mortal sin to keep Sunday Holy by attending at Mass. It is a precept, a"commandment," of the Church and we are to keep it. Of course being quite reasonable the Church accepts that on occasion with sufficent reason, one might miss with no negative consequences and recognizes also that some may not have opportunity to attend and are excused…

 

[Sheeniac]

The value is that we’re worshipping God by giving him our time - purely for him, for his sake, nothing that will have any obvious practical benefit for us.

Pretty much every other good work that we do can also be said to be somewhat self-serving - ie it adds to our own warm fuzzies, our own good standing in the community, our own reputation as a doer of good.

Indeed, didn’t Christ lament the fact that while in the Garden, no one could stay up even an hour with him? So, now, we don’t wish to stay with him on a hour on Sunday? Such a pity…

About the other good works - I must disagree to a point. I don’t so things to be self-serving, I do things because God wants me to serve and love my neighbors and the world. (I put ‘world’ there because I do a fair amount of animal rescue transporting, and my pastoral associate told me that it could fall under social justice - I was concerned that my acts of charity of helping rescue dogs and cats was detracting from my other works. It was heartening to hear the opinion that this was acting in goodwill towards God’s creatures.)

 

[wjp984]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

#2180: "The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: “on Sundays and other holy days of obligation the **faithful are bound **to participate in the Mass.” "The precept pf participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.

The Precepts of the Church

#2042: The first precept ("**You shall attend Mass on Sundays and on holy days of obligation **and rest from servile labor") requires the faithful to sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord as well as the principle liturgical feasts honoring the mysteries of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints; in the first place, by participating in the Eucharistic celebration, in which the Christian community is gathered, and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days.

Canon Law: #1247: On Sundays and other holydays of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in the Mass. They are also to abstain from such work or business that would inhibit the worship to be given to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s Day, or the due relaxation of mind and body.

It is also the third commandment of God. I would discuss this with the priests. If that fails, the bishop. If that fails, I would change to a different Church. We all know that sometimes we cannot attend (sick, fireman, police, etc.); however, we must make an honest attempt to make the Vigil or Sunday Mass.

I strongly disagree with this priest on nearly everything he stands for since he is against the rosary, and in paticular the fatima prayer and the Hail Holy Queen prayer. However, I enjoy the community I am with and just wish the old priest was not transfered.

 

[Protestant101]

Going to Mass on a Sunday shouldn’t feel like something you should HAVE to do because everyone else goes or even because your scared that its a Sin. You SHOULD be going to mass purely because you hunger and starve for it, because you crave to receive Christ. This is something everyone should continously try to achieve. I know when i go to Mass because i am “obligated” has a different impact to when i want to go to mass. The mass is so much for meaningful and sacred. The connection with God is so much deeper.

I can certainly agree with you that if you are a Catholic, and you are attending Mass because you HAVE to; then God would not be in it, for you.

Even though I differ from both Catholics, and most Protestants on the Day; I can agree that if you go to mass to connect with God; then you will. (1 Cor.15:58).

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Black_Knight_MI]

I can certainly agree with you that if you are a Catholic, and you are attending Mass because you HAVE to; then God would not be in it, for you.

This is unscriptural bunkum. 2nd Timothy 2:13 says, “If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he can not deny himself.” Just because a person shows up for Mass all screwed up or without faith does not mean that Our Lord is not there for them and you cannot provide the least scripture to support this, but I invite you to try.

Even though I differ from both Catholics, and most Protestants on the Day; I can agree that if you go to mass to connect with God; then you will. (1 Cor.15:58).

Our intentions do not specifically matter to God, or else St. Paul would never have been knocked from his horse on the Damascus road. He certainly was anything but seeking God.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 What think you? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them should go astray: doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the mountains, and go to seek that which is gone astray? 13 And if it so be that he find it: Amen I say to you, he rejoiceth more for that, than for the ninety-nine that went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Luke 15:1 Now the publicans and sinners drew near unto him to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes murmured, saying: This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. 3 And he spoke to them this parable, saying: 4 What man of you that hath an hundred sheep: and if he shall lose one of them, doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the desert, and go after that which was lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, lay it upon his shoulders, rejoicing:

6 And coming home, call together his friends and neighbours, saying to them: Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost? 7 I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance. 8 Or what woman having ten groats; if she lose one groat, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently until she find it? 9 And when she hath found it, call together her friends and neighbours, saying: Rejoice with me, because I have found the groat which I had lost. 10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.

In fact look at the whole rest of the 15th chapter of Luke about the prodigal son and you see the way I which God loves us and meets us just where we are.
You are seriously wrong.
Blackie

 

[Protestant101]

This is unscriptural bunkum. 2nd Timothy 2:13 says, “If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he can not deny himself.” Just because a person shows up for Mass all screwed up or without faith does not mean that Our Lord is not there for them and you cannot provide the least scripture to support this, but I invite you to try.Our intentions do not specifically matter to God, or else St. Paul would never have been knocked from his horse on the Damascus road. He certainly was anything but seeking God.

In fact look at the whole rest of the 15th chapter of Luke about the prodigal son and you see the way I which God loves us and meets us just where we are.
You are seriously wrong.
Blackie

Seriously wrong about what? If you are going to go to Church and you do it because you HAVE to; even with God right beside you; you do NOT receive Him…

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The whole point of your Eucharist is to receive the body of Christ. Are you saying He would do this by force, against our will? Did He do it with the Pharisees and other Church leaders in Jesus’ day who all went to Church because they HAD to?

Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

No one has denied the grand truths espoused by Luke. You have created a strawman.

 

[Lillith]

Passage Exodus 20:8:

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Passage Exodus 16:28:
28 Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long will you [a] refuse to keep my commands and my instructions?

Passage Matthew 5:17:

The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

[CRW]

This is unscriptural bunkum. 2nd Timothy 2:13 says, “If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he can not deny himself.” Just because a person shows up for Mass all screwed up or without faith does not mean that Our Lord is not there for them and you cannot provide the least scripture to support this, but I invite you to try.Our intentions do not specifically matter to God, or else St. Paul would never have been knocked from his horse on the Damascus road. He certainly was anything but seeking God.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 What think you? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them should go astray: doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the mountains, and go to seek that which is gone astray? 13 And if it so be that he find it: Amen I say to you, he rejoiceth more for that, than for the ninety-nine that went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Luke 15:1 Now the publicans and sinners drew near unto him to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes murmured, saying: This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. 3 And he spoke to them this parable, saying: 4 What man of you that hath an hundred sheep: and if he shall lose one of them, doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the desert, and go after that which was lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, lay it upon his shoulders, rejoicing:

6 And coming home, call together his friends and neighbours, saying to them: Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost? 7 I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance. 8 Or what woman having ten groats; if she lose one groat, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently until she find it? 9 And when she hath found it, call together her friends and neighbours, saying: Rejoice with me, because I have found the groat which I had lost. 10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.

In fact look at the whole rest of the 15th chapter of Luke about the prodigal son and you see the way I which God loves us and meets us just where we are.
You are seriously wrong.
Blackie

Mrk 6-11-13: " Where you enter a house,stay there until you leave the place, And if any place will not hear you and they refuse to hear you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet for a testimony against them."

IMHO, God’s gift of free will allows one to turn away from God’s grace, at home, at work, or at Mass. Yes he loves us, yes he will do all to bring us to our salvation, yes all in heaven will rejoice, but he will not force his love on us.I believe that is the one and only unforgivable sin spoken of the Holy Spirit. If we turn away from his grace, his love, and salvation, we turn away from him and we are not saved.

img124.imageshack.us/img124/3130/cmaeronmaryjosephkl6.jpg

 

[CRW]

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible to prove your point about the text in question here. It doesn’t matter who Ignatius knew; his comments are not inspired, as are the Bible. Ignatius believed and taught many things that are not in the Bible. Again; Mass is not being referred to in the text we are discussing. Actually, the article you referred to above; Ignatius doesn’t even mention the text we are discussing. Your post, therefore, is quite confusing.

2 Thessalonians, 2-13: So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

The Fathers of the Church received teachings from the 12 and taught them by mouth and by letter to the early church. Many early church documents support this.

“Sola Scriptura” only when it applies to a teaching one agrees to? The Authority of the Church guides and teaches Catholic’s on the full meaning of the Bible and it’s teachings.

 

[Protestant101]

2 Thessalonians, 2-13: So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

The Fathers of the Church received teachings from the 12 and taught them by mouth and by letter to the early church. Many early church documents support this.

“Sola Scriptura” only when it applies to a teaching one agrees to? The Authority of the Church guides and teaches Catholic’s on the full meaning of the Bible and it’s teachings.

The “word of mouth” is simply that which is in Scripture already. The Scriptures are used to decipher whether or not the spoken word has changed from mouth to mouth.

“Church Documents” do not explain the Bible, half as fully as the Bible explains itself. The only reason one would feel threatened by that is if something they believed was NOT in the Bible.

“Tradition” is only the voice and action of man, through which God can sometimes speak if we let Him.

The sufficiency of Bible revelation and inspiration lies within the plain declaration of God that they are “able to make thee wise unto salvation.” The only way to verify Tradition is by Scripture.

“Thy Word is a Light unto my path…” Ps.119:105

Show us where the Bible says this about “Tradition.” All it says is to “hold fast to the Tradition;” but it never once speaks of Tradition as “a Light unto my path,” nor does the Bible say even once that Tradition is “able to make thee wise unto salvation.”

 

[Damo73]

CRW how do you explain that we can not understand the apostles, when Paul thinks that we do understand the things that they are writting.What sort of advice would the apostles be giving, if the people they were writting to did not understand what they were saying.

Co 1:13 I am not writing anything you cannot read and understand. I hope you will understand it completely,

 

[Geno0331]

It all boils down to this. Do you believe that the bread and wine in the Catholic Mass is the body and blood of Christ? If you do, then there should be no reason, apart from illness and other grave matters, to miss mass. Where else can you ‘literally’ feel the presence of the Lord in a better way?

If you do not believe the bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ, then I would understand why, at times, Catholics might find excuses to miss Mass.

As one Protestant preacher put it, “if I thought for a second that the bread and wine was the Body and Blood, Sould and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, I’d be busting down the door everyday to get there!” (paraphrasing).

 

[LilyM]

Seriously wrong about what? If you are going to go to Church and you do it because you HAVE to; even with God right beside you; you do NOT receive Him…
The whole point of your Eucharist is to receive the body of Christ. Are you saying He would do this by force, against our will? Did He do it with the Pharisees and other Church leaders in Jesus’ day who all went to Church because they HAD to?

No one has denied the grand truths espoused by Luke. You have created a strawman.

And how much do you think Saul was knocked over by Christ on the road to Damascus because he WANTED to be? Quite the contrary.

God can certainly at least sometimes work powerfully on you simply if you’re in the right place at the right time and even half-willing to listen to Him. And even a negative emotion like fear can be the required starting point - or do you think God is too weak to bring good out of someone who’s showing at least a modicum of regard for Him?

And where else is better to be than His own house with Him truly present and seeing Him face to face, do you think?

 

[fineca]

My original question (the topic of this thread) was whether we have evidence that the EARLY Church believed that missing Mass was a mortal sin and thus something that endangers one’s salvation, AS WE KNOW THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES nowadays. Nobody addressed the issue- although the conversation has been good. Incidentally I happened to stumble upon a letter of St.Ignatius from the beginning of the 2nd century and lo and behold, I found the answer to my own question:

Epistle to the Ephesians, chapter 5:
“Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God. For if the prayer of one or two possesses such power, how much more that of the bishop and the whole Church ! He, therefore, that does not assemble with the Church, has even by this manifested his pride, and condemned himself. For it is written, “God resisteth the proud.” Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop, in order that we may be subject to God.”

Thanks for the insights-
E

 

[CRW]

The “word of mouth” is simply that which is in Scripture already. The Scriptures are used to decipher whether or not the spoken word has changed from mouth to mouth.

“Church Documents” do not explain the Bible, half as fully as the Bible explains itself. The only reason one would feel threatened by that is if something they believed was NOT in the Bible.

“Tradition” is only the voice and action of man, through which God can sometimes speak if we let Him.

The sufficiency of Bible revelation and inspiration lies within the plain declaration of God that they are “able to make thee wise unto salvation.” The only way to verify Tradition is by Scripture.

“Thy Word is a Light unto my path…” Ps.119:105

Show us where the Bible says this about “Tradition.” All it says is to “hold fast to the Tradition;” but it never once speaks of Tradition as “a Light unto my path,” nor does the Bible say even once that Tradition is “able to make thee wise unto salvation.”

There are millions of things that the Bible does not say or never will say. That is why the Catholic Church (2000 years) guides the faithful from the early fathers who received the word of mouth from the 12 to the current Pope. We do not get mad at Church and then start a new one two blocks down the road if we disagree. We allow the Church to speak. Jesus promised, that it would never end - our Church. So far, so good.
God Bless