Sunday Obligation on Saturdays

[Titivillus]

staranthology:

The reasoning I’ve heard, asides from it being convenient for some, is that it fits with the idea of the day starting at sundown , (I could be wrong)

I’ve heard this as an explanation also and I think while the basic idea it’s trying to convey isn’t wrong, it’s too simplistic and naturally gives rise to pretty much all the questions you asked!

With due respect: Nor is it the only simplistic explanation around.

For instance, one might read your explanation below and come to the erroneous conclusion that attending Mass on Wednesday of the Easter Octave will fulfill the Easter Sunday obligation.

On top of some liturgies beginning the night before due to importance of the celebration, others last an entire week as octaves due to the celebration being really really important. For example: Easter. Technically All of Easter week is one, huge Solemnity (1st Class Feast) that begins on Holy Saturday evening at I Vespers and continues through Easter Saturday afternoon to None (Afternoon Prayer).

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

With due respect: Nor is it the only simplistic explanation around.

For instance, one might read your explanation below and come to the erroneous conclusion that attending Mass on Wednesday of the Easter Octave will fulfill the Easter Sunday obligation.

Haha! I actually thought of that after posting but figured I’d let it slide and hope nobody catches it.

Well done!

But also, how dare you!

 

[Titivillus]

This is why – Truly – The best answers to the original question is “Because the Church, in her Canon Law, says so.” (Without trying to ret-con it otherwise)
Summary
For instance, people get hung up on the sundown thing, or the Vespers I thing, but the rubrics for some proper vigil Masses specifically note, eg: “This Mass is celebrated the evening before Christmas, either before or after Vespers I”

BEFORE
or
AFTER

 

[joeybaggz]

I’m going to the 5 o’clock vigil mass here in Western Pa. this evening. It won’t be sundown for about 3 hours after the mass is over. I have in the past wondered about this too; since my understanding of Sabbath/vigil services is that the occur after sundown. So, my answer, at least for myself, is this. All authority in the Roman Catholic Church starts with Peter, and his successors. All graces flow through Peter. And where is Peter, in Rome, and at 5 o’clock this evening, it will be about 10 in Rome, well after sundown.
You won’t find that in any Catholic doctrine I know of, but it works for me.
Shalom

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

This is why – Truly – The best answers to the original question is “Because the Church, in her Canon Law, says so.” (Without trying to ret-con it otherwise)

That is truly the answer to the OPs questions about obligation, as I even conceded in one of my posts, but I disagree that my other posts were retconning an explanation, unless you believe the Church writes her canon law capriciously. There’s a reason why she allows for observance of a Holy Day’s obligation the evening before. It’s not whimsical. There’s similarly a reason why Easter is an octave, why during the octave the Psalms for Sunday are used every single day for the Divine Office, why we abstain on Fridays, etc.

 

[Vico]

staranthology:

In other words, what makes a Saturday Evening Mass count for fulfilling the Sunday Obligation,

The current canon law says vespere, vespers, which means 4 p.m. on our modern time telling methods.

Two examples of Sunday vigil masses which fulfill the Sunday obligation @ 2:30 PM are Cathedrals:

Guardian Angels Cathedral in Las Vegas, NV
Saturday: Vigil 2:30pm, 4:00pm, 5:30pm

Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Kansas City, MO
SATURDAY [Both Masses fulfill the Sunday Obligation]
2:30 p.m. Music led by Cantor and Organ. The Schola Cantorum leads the music for two weekends each month. [Sept-May]
4:30 p.m. Music led by Cantor and Organ.

 

[1ke]

Examples that say they do, anyway.

I suppose it is a question for a caninist as to the boshop’s authority in the matter, Holy See involvement needed, etc. I have no idea.

 

[Vico]

Examples that say they do, anyway.

I suppose it is a question for a caninist as to the boshop’s authority in the matter, Holy See involvement needed, etc. I have no idea.

The five canon law commentaries vary the time with earliest times of noon, 2pm, 4 pm. The last action from the Holy See, prior to the current canon law, was from Pope Paul VI giving discretion on the earliest time, to the bishop.

 

[Titivillus]

The five canon law commentaries vary the time with earliest times of noon, 2pm, 4 pm. The last action from the Holy See, prior to the current canon law, was from Pope Paul VI giving discretion on the earliest time, to the bishop.

Even that, IMHO, was the answer to a subtly different question, viz: At what time may the Mass of the following day be celebrated?

But says nothing about when evening – vespere – begins, during which other Masses in a Catholic rite (the Mass of the Day, a wedding, another votive Mass (to name a few)) may be celebrated and would fulfill the obligation, even if earlier than the first Mass of the following day.

Repeat: IMHO

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Guardian Angels Cathedral in Las Vegas, NV
Saturday: Vigil 2:30pm, 4:00pm, 5:30pm

I don’t know about Kansas City, but having been to that Cathedral, I can understand why they would not want Mass goers down there any later than 6:30 or 7 pm. Doesn’t look like it would be particularly safe.

 

[dochawk]

y). In this case whichever of two outranks the other gets to have two vespers services.

And perhaps the most extreme version of this happened last year when Annunciation trumped Good Friday . . . (but that one won’t happen again in our lifetimes . . .)

hawk

 

[PaulfromIowa]

The answer is because the Church sets the times. At one time, Sunday Mass had to begin between an hour before sunrise, and an hour after Noon, i.e. 1pm.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Yes, though I think you meant that the other way around

 

[Vico]

… At what time may the Mass of the following day be celebrated? …

The canon law does not refer to the Mass of the following day, rather it states when the obligation may be fulfilled.

CIC Can. 2 For the most part the Code does not define the rites which must be observed in celebrating liturgical actions. Therefore, liturgical laws in force until now retain their force unless one of them is contrary to the canons of the Code.

 

[Titivillus]

Titivillus:

… At what time may the Mass of the following day be celebrated? …

The canon law does not refer to the Mass of the following day, rather it states when the obligation may be fulfilled.

That is very true, it states when the obligation may be fulfilled by any Mass in a Catholic rite.

But I was not referring to Canon Law. I was referring to the same document which you had referred, Eucharisticum Mysterium, which (it seems to me) is in that section referring specifically to Masses being celebrated the evening before their proper days.

 

[Titivillus]

And perhaps the most extreme version of this happened last year when Annunciation trumped Good Friday . . . (but that one won’t happen again in our lifetimes . . .)

As noted, Good Friday takes precedence over the Annunciation. But when this happens it is not merely the case that prayers of Good Friday are said in preference to the Annunciation. Rather, the latter feast is translated to the next available day (viz the Monday of the II week of Easter (and which, I believe, Evening Prayer II of the II Sunday of Easter is prayed))

 

[Vico]

…
But I was not referring to Canon Law. I was referring to the same document which you had referred, Eucharisticum Mysterium, which (it seems to me) is in that section referring specifically to Masses being celebrated the evening before their proper days.

The Eucharist fast is an important factor there. With Pope Pius XII there was a three hour Eucharistic fast so if one finished lunch at 1 PM, it was logical to allow the next Mass only at 4 PM. Pope Paul changed the Eucharistic discipline to a one hour fast, Paul VI, “Concession, on the eucharistic fast,” announced at a public session of Vatican Council II, November 21, 1964: AAS 57 (1965), 186, DOL 272. In the 1967 document he specifies the rules for reception of Eucharist in specific situations.

 

[dochawk]

Yes, though I think you meant that the other way around

Actually, I meant it that way. I (perhaps foolishly) assumed it was the same in the west.

In the East, it meant among other things that we actually had Divine Liturgy on Good Friday (normally only Presanctified on lenten weekdays, and then only Wednesday and Friday). We printed booklets for the peculiar liturgy (and saved them, as they’ll be needed again something like 130 years :headslap.

Rather, the latter feast is translated to the next available day

Move an immovable feast? [*shudders*] [eyes pop open] Westerism!



Annunciation is an older observance. We’d move Good Friday first. :crazy_face:

The Holy Table (altar) actually has three vestments on it at that point: blue over black over white. Partway though, we remove the blue and the priest changes vestments (blue to black). (The black will be removed for white during the St. Basil Divne Liturgy on Saturday)

hawk

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Actually, I meant it that way. I (perhaps foolishly) assumed it was the same in the west.

In the East, it meant among other things that we actually had Divine Liturgy on Good Friday (normally only Presanctified on lenten weekdays, and then only Wednesday and Friday).

Interesting. I had no idea. Thanks for the edumacation.

Titivillus:

Rather, the latter feast is translated to the next available day

Oh boy. Should I be the one to tell him, @Titivillus?

Our Westernism goes a little farther than that. We do this to any Solemnity (1st Class Feast in the '62 calendar) that falls during Holy Week. I hope you have your fainting couch close by and/or Grandmama’s finest pearls to clutch… St. Joseph’s day (3/19) frequently gets transferred too!

 

[ajfrab]

As many have said: the Church authorizes it.

Also, as at least one mentioned, it is very much tied to the Jewish use of the evening as the beginning of the next day. In fact, it is quite Biblical: Evening came and morning followed. The first day.

It does make for interesting situations, like this past Christmas. We had two Saturday evening vigil Masses (one at each of the two linked parishes that our priest is pastor of), and then a Sunday morning Mass. Then a vigil Mass Sunday evening, a later Midnight Mass, and then a Christmas day Mass on Monday morning. The really interesting thing was that any of the Masses on Sunday would have satisfied the Sunday obligation (at least that is how it was announced in our diocese). However, you could not satisfy both obligations by attending just one Mass Sunday evening.