Sunday Obligation Question

[ServantofMary]

I have a question that I would like your thoughts on. I live in a town that only has one Catholic parish (not TLM). The priest of the parish is very liberal. He changes the liturgy by adding things that aren’t suppose to be there, taking things out that are suppose to be there, and changing the words of the prayers (even the Eucharistic Prayers). Masses there are very casual and irreverent. He even many times teaches things during his homily that are contrary to the Catholic Faith. I have no doubt that the Masses are valid, but they are clearly illicit from all of the abuses.

My wife and I also have four children (ages 9, 5, 2, and 5 months), and we don’t want them to be exposed to these things. We don’t want them to grow up thinking that this is how Mass is suppose to be celebrated, and we don’t want them to be exposed and influenced to some of the wrong things that this priest says and teaches. We’re afraid that it will harm their faith.

Now, my question is am I obligated to attend an illicit Mass such as this to fulfill my Sunday obligation? I wrote to the Saint Joseph Foundation (who are Canon Law experts) about this situation, and they responded that Canon Law does not address this issue, since it assumes that every Mass that is celebrated within the Church is licit.

So since Canon Law doesn’t address this issue, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[spn82756]

I have a question that I would like your thoughts on. I live in a town that only has one Catholic parish (not TLM). The priest of the parish is very liberal. He changes the liturgy by adding things that aren’t suppose to be there, taking things out that are suppose to be there, and changing the words of the prayers (even the Eucharistic Prayers). Masses there are very casual and irreverent. He even many times teaches things during his homily that are contrary to the Catholic Faith. I have no doubt that the Masses are valid, but they are clearly illicit from all of the abuses.

My wife and I also have four children (ages 9, 5, 2, and 5 months), and we don’t want them to be exposed to these things. We don’t want them to grow up thinking that this is how Mass is suppose to be celebrated, and we don’t want them to be exposed and influenced to some of the wrong things that this priest says and teaches. We’re afraid that it will harm their faith.

Now, my question is am I obligated to attend an illicit Mass such as this to fulfill my Sunday obligation? I wrote to the Saint Joseph Foundation (who are Canon Law experts) about this situation, and they responded that Canon Law does not address this issue, since it assumes that every Mass that is celebrated within the Church is licit.

So since Canon Law doesn’t address this issue, what are your thoughts on this?

Geeesh…I can’t be 100% positive…but I think that if the priest has the intent of the Mass being licit and prays what is supposed to be prayed (even with additions) then it’s licit.

Please…someone correct me if I’m wrong. I don’t want to mislead.

 

[ServantofMary]

Geeesh…I can’t be 100% positive…but I think that if the priest has the intent of the Mass being licit and prays what is supposed to be prayed (even with additions) then it’s licit.

Please…someone correct me if I’m wrong. I don’t want to mislead.

The thing is that he doesn’t always pray what is suppose to be prayed. He changed words, which change the whole meaning of the prayers, etc. As for his intention, I can’t really judge that. But he has been a priest for over 25 years, and he knows how Mass is suppose to be prayed (especially since the times when our diocese’s chancellor visits, he stays faithful to the liturgy).

 

[spn82756]

The thing is that he doesn’t always pray what is suppose to be prayed. He changed words, which change the whole meaning of the prayers, etc. As for his intention, I can’t really judge that. But he has been a priest for over 25 years, and he knows how Mass is suppose to be prayed (especially since the times when our diocese’s chancellor visits, he stays faithful to the liturgy).

One of my priests always leads us in the Hail Mary after the prayer of the faithful. I believe that Michelle Arnold answered a question about that once by saying that it really should not be done.

It seems as though as long as the Eucharistic Prayer is said correctly…the Eucharist is valid. I’m not sure what else he would be changing.

 

[Onegin]

Geeesh…I can’t be 100% positive…but I think that if the priest has the intent of the Mass being licit and prays what is supposed to be prayed (even with additions) then it’s licit.

Please…someone correct me if I’m wrong. I don’t want to mislead.

I think what you are thinking of has to do with the validity of the Mass vis a vis the Priest’s own intention to make a valid consecration. In such a case where the Priest did not intend to validly consecrate, the Mass would be invalid.

However, outside of this, there are things which invalidate and I don’t believe that they become valid by virtue of the Priest wanting them to be. So, for example, while changing the preparatory Eucharistic Prayers is illicit, the Mass would only be invalid if the Priest changed the words of consecration themselves.

Illicit things to watch out for include add libbing prayers, holding hands during the “Our Father”, omitting the Penitential Rite, not kneeling during the Consecration, etc.

To the OP: I believe the suggestion is that one should contact the Priest, Bishop and Rome in that order (giving each the opportunity to correct the abuse) and if they refuse to correct the abuse, to attempt to find another Parish.

 

[spn82756]

I think what you are thinking of has to do with the validity of the Mass vis a vis the Priest’s own intention to make a valid consecration. In such a case where the Priest did not intend to validly consecrate, the Mass would be invalid.

However, outside of this, there are things which invalidate and I don’t believe that they become valid by virtue of the Priest wanting them to be. So, for example, while changing the preparatory Eucharistic Prayers is illicit, the Mass would only be invalid if the Priest changed the words of consecration themselves.

Illicit things to watch out for include add libbing prayers, holding hands during the “Our Father”, omitting the Penitential Rite, not kneeling during the Consecration, etc.

To the OP: I believe the suggestion is that one should contact the Priest, Bishop and Rome in that order (giving each the opportunity to correct the abuse) and if they refuse to correct the abuse, to attempt to find another Parish.

Thanks for clearing that up. I do have a question though. How would holding hands during the Our Father be illicit?

 

[ServantofMary]

It seems as though as long as the Eucharistic Prayer is said correctly…the Eucharist is valid. I’m not sure what else he would be changing.

He says the words of Consecration correctly (except he leaves out the word “may” on the consecration of the wine), so I don’t actually doubt the validity of the Mass. But the rest of the Eucharistic Prayer he changes according to his personal preference. He may add phrases that aren’t a part of the prayer, or take phrases out, etc.

But my question is, are we obligated to attend a Mass that is irreverent, full of illicit actions, and where unorthodox teachings are taught, even if it is the only Mass in our town? Also, if we are, then what about the influence that this may have on our children? Are we obligated to make them attend a Mass that may be harmful to their faith?

 

[spn82756]

He says the words of Consecration correctly (except he leaves out the word “may” on the consecration of the wine), so I don’t actually doubt the validity of the Mass. But the rest of the Eucharistic Prayer he changes according to his personal preference. He may add phrases that aren’t a part of the prayer, or take phrases out, etc.

But my question is, are we obligated to attend a Mass that is irreverent, full of illicit actions, and where unorthodox teachings are taught, even if it is the only Mass in our town? Also, if we are, then what about the influence that this may have on our children? Are we obligated to make them attend a Mass that may be harmful to their faith?

I know I’m not answering your question…but rather asking another. But what does he teach that is unorthodox? I’m just curious. I feel for your concerns. I truly do.

 

[Onegin]

Thanks for clearing that up. I do have a question though. How would holding hands during the Our Father be illicit?

The short answer is because, although it is a widespread practice, it is not legally permitted or authorized (which is what “illicit” means). Despite the widespread practice of adding to the Liturgy, Rome does not look fondly on such behavior.

The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae 11 p.226, states the practice of holding hands “must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.”

 

[spn82756]

The short answer is because, although it is a widespread practice, it is not legally permitted or authorized (which is what “illicit” means). Despite the widespread practice of adding to the Liturgy, Rome does not look fondly on such behavior.

The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae 11 p.226, states the practice of holding hands "must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics."

I accept that. But this is specifically in reference to replacing the sign of peace with holding hands. In fairness to you…holding hands is not proper during the Our Father either. Here is the rest of the article you referenced.

This gesture has come into widespread use, often leaving bishops and pastors at a loss as to how to reverse the situation. For individuals, I would recommend closed eyes and a prayerful posture as sufficient response, rather than belligerence. Most laity, and probably many priests, are blind to the liturgical significance of interrupting the flow of the Mass in this way. It is not necessary to lose one’s peace over this or be an irritation to others. Some proportion is required. If asked why you don’t participate, simply, plainly and charitably tell the questioner of your discovery. If some chance of changing the practice is possible talk to the pastor or work with other laity through the parish council. You can also write the bishop, as is your right in the case of any liturgical abuse not resolved at the parish level. If your judgment is that no change is possible then I believe you are excused from further fraternal correction.

 

[ServantofMary]

I know I’m not answering your question…but rather asking another. But what does he teach that is unorthodox? I’m just curious. I feel for your concerns. I truly do.

One of the main things for me is that he is very much into false ecumenism. He mentions that it doesn’t matter what denomination or religion that one goes to. As long as they are good people they will go to heaven. Our deacon has even said that he believes that his grandfather is in heaven, even though he wasn’t even a Christian and never stepped inside of a church building, simply because he was a good person.

 

[spn82756]

One of the main things for me is that he is very much into false ecumenism. He mentions that it doesn’t matter what denomination or religion that one goes to. As long as they are good people they will go to heaven. Our deacon has even said that he believes that his grandfather is in heaven, even though he wasn’t even a Christian and never stepped inside of a church building, simply because he was a good person.

Ahhh…now that is quite unorthodox. That alone is a red flag. I will pray for you and your family. I’ve seen worse in an area where there is little choice as to where to attend Mass.

 

[mike52ad]

I would continue to go because the reason you are going is to receive the Eucharist. You need the Eucharist to keep yourself strong in the faith.

I would immediately however, write a letter to your bishop and explain, in charity, your concerns.

I would take this opportunity to nurture the children and help them to be good Catholics and tell them yourself why not every church is the same.

I would pray to Mary and ask her intercession by saying the rosary for this priest that he be shown his way are injuring the the Household of God.

Forgive the chiche, I feel your pain and sorrow and I will pray for you and your family.

 

[NeelyAnn]

I have a question that I would like your thoughts on. I live in a town that only has one Catholic parish (not TLM). The priest of the parish is very liberal. He changes the liturgy by adding things that aren’t suppose to be there, taking things out that are suppose to be there, and changing the words of the prayers (even the Eucharistic Prayers). Masses there are very casual and irreverent. He even many times teaches things during his homily that are contrary to the Catholic Faith. I have no doubt that the Masses are valid, but they are clearly illicit from all of the abuses.

My wife and I also have four children (ages 9, 5, 2, and 5 months), and we don’t want them to be exposed to these things. We don’t want them to grow up thinking that this is how Mass is suppose to be celebrated, and we don’t want them to be exposed and influenced to some of the wrong things that this priest says and teaches. We’re afraid that it will harm their faith.

Now, my question is am I obligated to attend an illicit Mass such as this to fulfill my Sunday obligation? I wrote to the Saint Joseph Foundation (who are Canon Law experts) about this situation, and they responded that Canon Law does not address this issue, since it assumes that every Mass that is celebrated within the Church is licit.

So since Canon Law doesn’t address this issue, what are your thoughts on this?

ServantofMary -

The answers you get on here are going to be from one end of the spectrum to the other. Most who consider themselves “Traditional” Catholics will normally advise not to go (for all the reasons you mentioned you are concerned about, plus others). Those that fall in the conservative, but not necessarily traditonal camp, are going to say go.

Personally, I would say don’t go. We have been in this position before with an alternating priest who gave heretical sermons. When he would give the sermons, we would have to pull our daughter out of Mass during the sermons. We made a point to not attend Mass at this parish when we knew it was his week to give the sermons, but occassionally he would be there unexpectedly. It became easier not to attend Mass there at all. However, we did not stay home from Mass altogether. We did find another place to attend.

I am not sure where you are located, but surely there must be another place to attend Mass, even if you have to drive a little. Have you checked to see what options you have 30-60 minutes from your home? Perhaps there is a Latin Mass nearer than you think.

Try these 2 links:

web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm

traditio.com/tradlib/masslat.pdf

The abuses and the general atmosphere of the parish you attend are very important issues. Not only can your faith be weakend by attending there, but that of your children can also be. Some may say that it is the Eucharist you are receiving so it does not matter, but it does. So what if you receive the Eucharist but have lost the faith. How will that help you? Many people receive on Sunday who do not have the faith. That is not profitable to them, it is actually harmful if they are receiving unworthily.

The next thing to consider is the possibility that the Consecration may not be vaild. If the priest is changing the words of the prayers, etc. during Mass, he may also be changing the words of the Consecration. You need to pay attention to know if he is doing this.

You also need to find out if he is using valid matter for the bread and wine. With all of the other abuses, and the relaxed/irreverent atmostphere your described, this may be a possibility. It would not be the first time. Fr. Z recently received an email from someone asking him what to do about a priest using grape juice for the wine. The grape juice is not valid matter and even with the correct words of Consecration does not become the Blood of Christ. Some years ago I remember hearing that it was found that the entire diocese of Cincinnatti had used invalid matter for the hosts for many years. Meaning, the Eucharist was not vaildly consecrated for all of those years. I am not saying this is the case at your parish, however I would look into to it because of all of the toehr abuses you have already mentioned.

Anyway, point is - it is not always a given in that you are receiving the Eucharist. It can be possible that you are not.

 

[NeelyAnn]

BTW - regardless of your decision, you should speak to the priest. Make sure to bring information to support that what he is doing is wrong. If he does not respond, or responds negatively, consult your bishop in writing with evidence (such as pictures, or statements from others who witnessed the abuses) and proof that these things are wrong. Maintain all of your correspondence. If you receive no results, forward a copy of everything to Rome.

 

[baltobetsy]

The precept of the Church to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation does not specify that the Mass must be to your liking or even celebrated perfectly according to the established norms.

The problematic homilies are likely to go over your younger children’s heads, and probably your 9-year-old won’t be seriously harmed, either. If there is a question, you can address it yourself.

The variations in the prayers will also pass unnoticed by your children unless you make a fuss about it.

At some point, the situation will be resolved by a transfer or a retirement or a change of heart on the part of the priest. Children are amazingly flexible, and they really won’t grow up thinking what happened when they were younger is the only way to celebrate Mass.

Staying away from Mass and the Eucharist will not help anything. Are you too far away to go to a different parish? OK, then stay where you are and introduce family prayers for the priest. It’s the Year of the Priest, a very good time to teach your little ones to pray for priests. Don’t point out his faults, just pray for him. And pray for your children. And then leave it in God’s hands. Obedience is always fruitful - it will bless your family to attend Mass, even if it’s not perfect.

Betsy

 

[CradleCath]

I have a question that I would like your thoughts on. I live in a town that only has one Catholic parish (not TLM). The priest of the parish is very liberal. He changes the liturgy by adding things that aren’t suppose to be there, taking things out that are suppose to be there, and changing the words of the prayers (even the Eucharistic Prayers). Masses there are very casual and irreverent. He even many times teaches things during his homily that are contrary to the Catholic Faith. I have no doubt that the Masses are valid, but they are clearly illicit from all of the abuses.

My wife and I also have four children (ages 9, 5, 2, and 5 months), and we don’t want them to be exposed to these things. We don’t want them to grow up thinking that this is how Mass is suppose to be celebrated, and we don’t want them to be exposed and influenced to some of the wrong things that this priest says and teaches. We’re afraid that it will harm their faith.

Now, my question is am I obligated to attend an illicit Mass such as this to fulfill my Sunday obligation? I wrote to the Saint Joseph Foundation (who are Canon Law experts) about this situation, and they responded that Canon Law does not address this issue, since it assumes that every Mass that is celebrated within the Church is licit.

So since Canon Law doesn’t address this issue, what are your thoughts on this?

I have to make this quick, I’m on my way to Mass. Just write Ecclesia Dei & tell them of your situation:
ecclesiadei.org/Suggestions.htm

 

[ProVobis]

The precept of the Church to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation does not specify that the Mass must be to your liking or even celebrated perfectly according to the established norms.

Validity is important and which we need to seek.

From Canon Law:

Can. 844 §2 Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ’s faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non-catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

Can. 1248 §1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day.

§2 If it is impossible to assist at a eucharistic celebration, either because no sacred minister is available or for some other grave reason, the faithful are strongly recommended to take part in a liturgy of the Word, if there be such in the parish church or some other sacred place, which is celebrated in accordance with the provisions laid down by the diocesan Bishop; or to spend an appropriate time in prayer, whether personally or as a family or, as occasion presents, in a group of families.

 

[corsair]

I have to agree with NeelyAnn on this one. Form, Matter and Intention are to be followed or the Mass MAY be invalid. Priests are forbidden to improvise.

 

[ServantofMary]

The precept of the Church to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation does not specify that the Mass must be to your liking or even celebrated perfectly according to the established norms.

But as I mentioned in my original post, according to the Saint Joseph Foundation, when Canon Law speaks of the obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and other days of obligation, it assumes that the Mass is licit. I was wondering about the obligation to attend an illicit Mass.