Sunday's homily on the scientific testing of consecrated host found to be heart tissue

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JimG said:
Yes, you are correct. Jesus is wholly present in the Eucharist–his entire body and blood, every part of him. We do not perceive his proper appearances because he is hidden under the appearances of bread and wine, which do not inhere in him. Perhaps the purpose of a Eucharistic miracle is to bring home that profound truth.
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Exactly–well said.
 
I would mostly doubt the atheists passing out for 20 minutes. I think somebody added that for effect.
 
Bonnie said:
This particular miracle is not easy for me to refute as I don’t have the resources. Others are much easier. For instance, there is a thread here at CA about a nun in Kenya who claimed to have taken photographs of Jesus. The picture looked familiar to me so I did some Googling around. Turns out the picture is one that was drawn by a Hungarian artist named Semiechen in the early 20th century. The nun - or someone - took a photograph of the drawing. She may well have believed she took a photograph of Jesus. No way to know that.

As I Protestant, I saw dubious miracles such as the “lengthening” of a “short” leg. Very easy to fake, even unintentionally. As a Catholic, I saw a rosary that the owner claimed turned to gold at Medjugorje. It just looked tarnished to me; she didn’t take it to a jeweler to have it verified. I think she really wanted to believe it to be gold, but was afraid it wasn’t.

When I was in my teens I took as Gospel truth the account of a man that NASA had proven the “missing days” from the OT accounts of the sun being stopped. It was a total fabrication. I felt very dumb having believed it.

I’m sorry you were offended, but I do consider anyone who accepts purported “miracles” as real without any solid proof to be gullible.

For the record, I still have problems believing in transubstantiation and the afterlife, even after nearly 40 years a Catholic. Perhaps my name should be Thomasina. 😉
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Those examples you give aren’t really indicative of things that are declared miracles by the Church. You should look into Lourdes and the criteria used in verify the miracles that come out of it. Thousands of them have be put forward, but only a small percentage (less than 1%, I think) have been accepted by the Church.

It’s true that a lot of people take things at face value without putting much thought into it, but that’s no reason to discount the miracles which people have studied thoroughly in an attempt to determine a natural cause.
 
Well, it may need another thread but I do think there are many, many little “miracles” every day in our lives once we start walking with Jesus. I know for me that many of the prayers I have made over the years get answered. I ask for little stuff and it happens. Grace flows. Things happen. Prayers are answered in knowable ways. These things are little miracles to me. They aren’t spectacular like a bleeding Host may be or a weeping statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary or the restoration of sight in a blind person through prayers to a specific Saint or the application of a relic to some place on a person, but I know they are a result of prayers and the flow of grace in my life.

Take for instance conversion. How many of us pray for the conversion of a particular person and when they do start to move towards Jesus, we consider it a miracle. I feel my own conversion to be a miracle. What about these acts of grace?

So, what about all the little miracles we rely on in our every day lives as Christians?

Glenda
 
glendab said:
Well, it may need another thread but I do think there are many, many little “miracles” every day in our lives once we start walking with Jesus.
Glenda
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I agree, tho I wouldn’t call conversion a small miracle. 🙂

The miracles I believe in I would call spiritual miracles. For instance, it was over a year ago that I first found out about St. Pauline Visintainer, the patron saint of diabetics. I started praying to her, asking for her help. A short time later I found the best diet for me and have continually asked her help to stay on the diet. I am now off medication and my blood glucose levels are going down.

I didn’t get cured of diabetes, but I found out about a diet and have - for the first time in my life - the determination to stick to it. I call it a miracle.
 
St_Francis said:
Yes, unverified miracles can cause the appearance of superstition, bit the Church is very careful to verify claims of miracles very carefully. For example, the criteria are so strict that even tho thousands have been cured at Lourdes, only 67 have “passed” the verification tests the Church requires. ((Link)

Remember that the Church has and has always had a high regard for reason.
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In the case of the Buenos Aires miracle, does anyone know how to find out which lab did the testing? I email a (former) poster here who said that the testing was done by a forensic criminal lab. I asked more questions but haven’t heard back from him yet
 
Wouldn’t there be some skin cells attached to each host because the priest or minister uses their hands to give them to the congregation?
 
adawgj said:
Wouldn’t there be some skin cells attached to each host because the priest or minister uses their hands to give them to the congregation?
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Probably so. I think they found DNA, hopefully it wasnt from the priest or recipient.
 
Hello Faith 1960.

Here is a site that may interest you. Below is an excerpt from an article outlining the Eucharistic miracle you are concerned with. I hope it helps you. It really is an awesome one, but keep in mind the most awesome one we experience is found in every Mass when Transubstantiation occurs and Jesus becomes visible to all those who have eyes to see Him in the Blessed Sacrament on the Altar in the hands of His Priest.

Glenda

A consecrated Host becomes flesh and blood
At seven o’clock in the evening on August 18, 1996, Fr. Alejandro Pezet was saying Holy Mass at a Catholic church in the commercial center of Buenos Aires. As he was finishing distributing Holy Communion, a woman came up to tell him that she had found a discarded host on a candleholder at the back of the church. On going to the spot indicated, Fr. Alejandro saw the defiled Host. Since he was unable to consume it, he placed it in a container of water and put it away in the tabernacle of the chapel of the Blessed Sacrament.
On Monday, August 26, upon opening the tabernacle, he saw to his amazement that the Host had turned into a bloody substance. He informed Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, who gave instructions that the Host be professionally photographed. The photos were taken on September 6. They clearly show that the Host, which had become a fragment of bloodied flesh, had grown significantly in size. For several years the Host remained in the tabernacle, the whole affair being kept a strict secret. Since the Host suffered no visible decomposition, Cardinal Bergoglio decided to have it scientifically analyzed.
On October 5, 1999, in the presence of the Cardinal’s representatives, Dr. Castanon took a sample of the bloody fragment and sent it to New York for analysis. Since he did not wish to prejudice the study, he purposely did not inform the team of scientists of its provenance. One of these scientists was Dr. Frederic Zugiba, the well-known cardiologist and forensic pathologist. He determined that the analyzed substance was real flesh and blood containing human DNA. Zugiba testified that, “the analyzed material is a fragment of the heart muscle found in the wall of the left ventricle close to the valves. This muscle is responsible for the contraction of the heart. It should be borne in mind that the left cardiac ventricle pumps blood to all parts of the body. The heart muscle is in an inflammatory condition and contains a large number of white blood cells. This indicates that the heart was alive at the time the sample was taken. It is my contention that the heart was alive, since white blood cells die outside a living organism. They require a living organism to sustain them. Thus, their presence indicates that the heart was alive when the sample was taken. What is more, these white blood cells had penetrated the tissue, which further indicates that the heart had been under severe stress, as if the owner had been beaten severely about the chest.”

catholicpilgrim.org/2013/11/27/pope-francis-a-eucharistic-miracle-in-argentina/
 
glendab said:
Hello Faith 1960.

Here is a site that may interest you. Below is an excerpt from an article outlining the Eucharistic miracle you are concerned with. I hope it helps you. It really is an awesome one, but keep in mind the most awesome one we experience is found in every Mass when Transubstantiation occurs and Jesus becomes visible to all those who have eyes to see Him in the Blessed Sacrament on the Altar in the hands of His Priest.

Glenda

A consecrated Host becomes flesh and blood
At seven o’clock in the evening on August 18, 1996, Fr. Alejandro Pezet was saying Holy Mass at a Catholic church in the commercial center of Buenos Aires. As he was finishing distributing Holy Communion, a woman came up to tell him that she had found a discarded host on a candleholder at the back of the church. On going to the spot indicated, Fr. Alejandro saw the defiled Host. Since he was unable to consume it, he placed it in a container of water and put it away in the tabernacle of the chapel of the Blessed Sacrament.
On Monday, August 26, upon opening the tabernacle, he saw to his amazement that the Host had turned into a bloody substance. He informed Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, who gave instructions that the Host be professionally photographed. The photos were taken on September 6. They clearly show that the Host, which had become a fragment of bloodied flesh, had grown significantly in size. For several years the Host remained in the tabernacle, the whole affair being kept a strict secret. Since the Host suffered no visible decomposition, Cardinal Bergoglio decided to have it scientifically analyzed.
On October 5, 1999, in the presence of the Cardinal’s representatives, Dr. Castanon took a sample of the bloody fragment and sent it to New York for analysis. Since he did not wish to prejudice the study, he purposely did not inform the team of scientists of its provenance. One of these scientists was Dr. Frederic Zugiba, the well-known cardiologist and forensic pathologist. He determined that the analyzed substance was real flesh and blood containing human DNA. Zugiba testified that, “the analyzed material is a fragment of the heart muscle found in the wall of the left ventricle close to the valves. This muscle is responsible for the contraction of the heart. It should be borne in mind that the left cardiac ventricle pumps blood to all parts of the body. The heart muscle is in an inflammatory condition and contains a large number of white blood cells. This indicates that the heart was alive at the time the sample was taken. It is my contention that the heart was alive, since white blood cells die outside a living organism. They require a living organism to sustain them. Thus, their presence indicates that the heart was alive when the sample was taken. What is more, these white blood cells had penetrated the tissue, which further indicates that the heart had been under severe stress, as if the owner had been beaten severely about the chest.”

catholicpilgrim.org/2013/11/27/pope-francis-a-eucharistic-miracle-in-argentina/
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Thanks. i’d already read it. Im looking for the name of the criminal lab the tests were done.
 
Hello Faith 1960.

Here is another place you can look. It is a video with one of the doctors involved. It is on Youtube and unfortunately is in Spanish, but it is passable if you listen. It has English subtitles that help.

Glenda

youtube.com/watch?v=qbg_dhI4XCs
 
Well then Faith, I’m afraid I cannot help you. Perhaps following the myriad of links that those Youtubes usually lead to will give you the information you need. I’d like to ask why is the exact name of the forensic laboratory so important to you? Is this your field of interest or your profession? Are you studying forensics or something? I’m getting curious.

Glenda
 
glendab said:
Well then Faith, I’m afraid I cannot help you. Perhaps following the myriad of links that those Youtubes usually lead to will give you the information you need. I’d like to ask why is the exact name of the forensic laboratory so important to you? Is this your field of interest or your profession? Are you studying forensics or something? I’m getting curious.

Glenda
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I posted about it some time ago and was met with negative posters criticizing the information, saying it was a fraud and that people couldve tampered with the samples. Inwas told in email that that would be impossible because the tests were done at a forensic criminal lab where tampering wouldnt happen. I wanted to know for sure the tests were done under the strictest of conditions.
 
Neofight said:
I’m thinking this came as part of a Homily Aid or suggestion, because it is the same topic our priest used in the homily.

Interestingly, the take our priest took was that the host turning to heart tissue was nonsense…concluding that the mystery of the real presence is that while the host and wine become the body and blood of the Lord, their physical matter still remains bread and wine.
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Your priest is teaching heresy.
 
Hello Faith.
Faith1960 said:
I posted about it some time ago and was met with negative posters criticizing the information, saying it was a fraud and that people couldve tampered with the samples. Inwas told in email that that would be impossible because the tests were done at a forensic criminal lab where tampering wouldnt happen. I wanted to know for sure the tests were done under the strictest of conditions.
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Thanks for the reply. It isn’t up to us to convince skeptics who really don’t want to believe but only want to mock in their questions and you usually find out that is the real reason for their questions after a short time of talking. Thanks again for the explanation.

Glenda
 
glendab said:
Hello Faith.

Thanks for the reply. It isn’t up to us to convince skeptics who really don’t want to believe but only want to mock in their questions and you usually find out that is the real reason for their questions after a short time of talking. Thanks again for the explanation.

Glenda
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Ive put some people who list themselves as athiest on ignore but their posts come through in other peoples quotes.
 
)Can anybody else help me? I found some information that a place called Foresnsic Analytical Lab was involved in some of the testing. Could that be a forensic criminal lab?
 
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