Sungenis and the Jews

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Continued to Magic:

If you have carefully read through the entire study (and the links to Jacob Michael and David Palm’s pieces), looking at the evidence as a whole, and have concluded that Sungenis is indeed an expert/authority, that he is unbiased and that he is not committed to furthering his opinions on Jewish issues (and treating them as fact), then we have a serious difference of opinion that further discussion will not aid.
 
Donna,

Thank you for your reply and I respect your opinion. We are in much agreement.

But I believe a good many of the posts even here at CA would at least tend to argue against the idea that enough has been said. After re-reading this thread, it seems that there has been some constructive and edifying discussion. So I suppose it depends upon who is primarily in view. If one is primarily concerned with Bob, or at least his present feelings, then you may be right. But if one is primarily concerned with the people he continues to attack and the innocent people who read what he has written and accept it, then it is not so clear whether or not that time has arrived.

He has been writing these kinds of things for years. And his website draws a great deal of people interested in his writings on Jewish issues. His former webmaster has told me this.

And the fact that most of his articles and Q-A’s on Jewish issues remain up, even now, speaks volumes. Furthermore, he continues to express his drive to vigorously go after Jewish issues even now, very much in contradiction to the implications of his “Open Letter”, although most of these expressions are not in public view.

But by all means, if you believe that you or anyone else can at least prevail upon him to pull his articles and Q and A’s down on Jewish issues, Godspeed to you.

God bless.
 
Hi Augustine22,

You: But I see his keeping his stuff still up over there like he’s still swinging at people. Taking cheap shots really.

Me: What besides “Michael Forrest and the boys” is still up on Sungenis’ site that is objectionable to you?

You: What would you think if your out at a bar and a guy picks a fight with you, taking cheap shots? And this happens, night after night. Then someone comes along and says to everyone, “I know this looks bad, but don’t jump in and help the guy whose getting hit with the cheap shots night after night, just pray for the guy whose hitting him, he’s done many good things in the past!”?

Me: I see the analogy slightly differently. It appears to me that Sungenis has been K.O.’d and people keep kicking him while he is down. He has lost whether he knows it or not. I don’t really “surf” his web site any longer so there could be much more but he has lost and his continuing to keep the offending article(s) up only hurts him IMHO.

It seems by what you post that you are personally involved in this but I can’t tell because you go by “Augustine22”. Are you personally involved?

And Hi, Michael Forrest,

. I do not surf Sungenis’ site any longer so I’m unaware of anything other than “Michael Forrest and the boys” that is still up. If his hateful comments regarding Jews and/or personal attacks on individuals are still up (I did a brief check of his site and could not find them) then perhaps something should be done but I don’t think that this forum is the place or method any longer. I think that it served its purpose. However, Michael, I realize that I could be wrong here but it has been said. Those who refuse to see that Sungenis has these problems will never be convinced no matter how many times you post it.

Donna
 
On the Topic of Discussing the Actions of one Robert Sungenis…

WHEREAS, the matter of Robert Sungenis and his writings on issues of a Jewish nature have become a point of concentrated interest by his former employees and others in agreement with them, and

WHEREAS, a thread was created at Catholic Answers to provide a public forum for the gathering of criticism of said Robert Sungenis, and

WHEREAS, the number of posts on said thread was approaching 200 in number, and

WHEREAS, the (name removed by moderator)ut from said critics was becoming overly repititious, occasionally mean-spirited, and often downright silly and personal, and

WHEREAS, the (name removed by moderator)ut from supporters of the man, Robert Sungenis was distinct from the controversial writings which have upset a few of the posters, and

WHEREAS, the said thread was at onetime removed, and moderators were compelled to issue warnings on the level of charity by some of the posters, and

WHEREAS, many of the viewers of this site are non-Catholic and even anti-Catholic who have been given a chance to laugh at the actions of the “Catholics” who won’t let the subject reach a conclusion, and

WHEREAS, the individual central to this discussion has his own website, www.catholicintl.com which is assessable to all, and

WHEREAS, said individual has stated that he will welcome questions directed to him in a civil manner, and will make every reasonable effort to answer questions on his site, publically, and

WHEREAS, said individual will continue in his ministry in which he addresses attacks on the Church (direct, indirect, past, present or future), and defends the Catholic position (even if it becomes offensive to non-Catholics) and

WHEREAS, most of the critics alluded to also have their own sites for people to contact on this or other issues, and

WHEREAS, said Robert Sungenis has not come to Catholic Answers to use this site as a forum for his interests as have the critics - who perhaps would have little, lesser, or no audience on their own sites, and

WHEREAS, the former thread on this topic was perhaps providencially sent to limbo, and

WHEREAS, if this forum is used to make Robert Sungenis and or his ministry conform to the wishes, needs, and or beliefs of the critics, we will see them eventually try to change Catholic Answers itself to their version of a pristine internet site molded to their desires. and finallly

WHEREAS, the central theme is the way the Jews are being treated, right or wrong, and the (name removed by moderator)ut from Jews on the matter is virtually non-existant…

We now ask for the moderators to say
Enough is enough,
Get a life,
Apologize for your incessant attacks and apparant need to win something,

and at this time Close the Thread.

*I had posted a post similar to this on the old thread… it was the last one posted… then all the thread disappeared. *

To that last post, I had added that we could close the thread and then just watch and see who who revive the conflict… who was not done b*ing, an who was unwilling to stop the appearance of hate.

I did not think it would happen this fast.

.
 
Hi MrS

As you know, I am of the opinion that the thread has gone on too long as well. However, I do have some comments on what you just posted.

You: WHEREAS, many of the viewers of this site are non-Catholic and even anti-Catholic who have been given a chance to laugh at the actions of the “Catholics” who won’t let the subject reach a conclusion, and

Me: As an ex Lutheran (LCMS) I can tell you what I would have thought if I came across this thread in my non-Catholic days. I would have thought that these Catholics were trying to make it clear that Sungenis does not speak for the Catholic Church in things related to the Jews. After reading what he wrote, I think that this was a good thing initially.

You: WHEREAS, the individual central to this discussion has his own website, www.catholicintl.com which is assessable to all, and

WHEREAS, said individual has stated that he will welcome questions directed to him in a civil manner, and will make every reasonable effort to answer questions on his site, publically, and

Me: That would of course be a good thing. I hope that one or all of them will indeed challenge Sungenis on his site but I have my doubts that he will post what they have to say.

You: WHEREAS, if this forum is used to make Robert Sungenis and or his ministry conform to the wishes, needs, and or beliefs of the critics, we will see them eventually try to change Catholic Answers itself to their version of a pristine internet site molded to their desires. and finallly

Me: As I see it MrS they are trying to get Sungenis to conform to the beliefs of the Catholic Church and common sense.

You: WHEREAS, the central theme is the way the Jews are being treated, right or wrong, and the (name removed by moderator)ut from Jews on the matter is virtually non-existant…

Me: I wonder if there are any Jews who read his site. Also, if there are some who do read it, what evidence do you have that no Jew has given any (name removed by moderator)ut? I have seen anti Catholic sites and have complained to them but my complaints never seem to see the light of day on the web site.

You: We now ask for the moderators to say
Enough is enough,
Get a life,
Apologize for your incessant attacks and apparant need to win something,

Me: I would think that only the ad hominem arguments would need to be apologized for and I don’t remember any of those from the writers of the documents. I have however seen ad hominem coming from Sungenis regarding at least Michael Forrest. I don’t intend to re-read what he wrote and I cannot remember ad hominem against anyone else but if he did he owes them apologies as well. Have you written Sungenis to request that he apologize?

Donna
 
Donna–

Maybe I’m wrong, but the links for sungenisandthejews were working. Just check there and see if they still work.

Look, I don’t want to kick a guy when he’s down. So if you really think that, okay. But it just didn’t look that way to me.

And I admit this is personal to me. My families dearest friends are Jewish and it drives me crazy when people say these kinds of hateful things— especially when they try to pass it off as Catholic.

I bought Sungenis’ books and even gave a couple to a proetestant friend. But I guess it really bothers me because I looked up to him and then I find out he thinks this way about Jewish poeple. I’'m kind of hurt and angry. But I just want him to stop and not do it anymore.

So maybe you have a point. Maybe how I feel about my friends is making it harder to see it straight up because I want to protect them. So, I guess I’m saying that I’m willing to try letting it go for now.
 
Hi Augustine,

You: I bought Sungenis’ books and even gave a couple to a proetestant friend. But I guess it really bothers me because I looked up to him and then I find out he thinks this way about Jewish poeple. I’'m kind of hurt and angry. But I just want him to stop and not do it anymore.

Me: I too looked up to him so I think I understand a little. I recommend that you write to Sungenis and tell him what you wrote above. All or most of the men who wrote about Sungenis and the Jews were good friends of his at one time. I know a few of them in a cyber sort of way so I know this first hand. I don’t think any of them get a kick out of attempting to correct him. Since they had a personal relationship with them they probably hurt too. I hope that one day Sungenis will realize that those men are his true friends. Those who defend him when he is wrong are not. I’m not saying that they should post a denunciation of Sungenis for all to see here, but perhaps they can go to him personally. I did this a couple of times.

Donna

Unless directly addressed with something that needs to be replied to, this will be my last post on this subject so perhaps it will die or at least go into hybernation for a while.
 
Donna,

For my part, I agree this seems to be a good time to let it end.

God bless,
Michael
 
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