Sungenis Apologetics

[RikasAngel]

Hello All,

What is everone’s opinion of Bob Sungenis’ and Gerry Matatics Apologetics. They have an obvious love for the Catholic faith, but their Traditonalist perspectives about the Modern Liturgy and Creation Science are rather troubling. There is also apparantly a fair amount of animosity between Sungenis & Karl Keating. Mr. Sungenis has been a guest a few times on Catholic Answers Live, but now he has made several harsh comments regarding Karl Keating’s managment, finances, and relationships with Jimmy Akin and Patrick Madrid www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/keatings-gospel.htm.

Is this kind of stuff at all good for Catholic Apologetics. I feel the Church has enough problems defending itself from Fundamentalist Protestantism, Militant Secularism, and Cafeteria Catholicism to have deal with squabbles among our best and brightest. What do you all think?

 

[PhilVaz]

They were both great in their “hey day” (Matatics early 90s, Sungenis about 5 years ago). Too bad they had to marginalize themselves with wacky views. Sungenis “Not By” series (and his short-lived EWTN series on justification) is still wonderful apologetics, but I’m not looking forward to his “Was Wrong” series

No, its not at all good for Catholic apologetics to associate with wacky views, keep those to yourself please. The earth is round, does move, is approx 4.5 billion years old, evolution is probably true, and yes Benedict XVI is the Pope.

Phil P

 

[WanderAimlessly]

I never have heard of Matatic, but I use to like Sungenis until he started to head towards the RadTrad crowd. If Karl was right (and he propbaby was) and Matatic was espousing Feeneyism at the meeting, then he was right to say and write what he did.

I use to have the “Not by” series, but have gotten rid of them.

PF

 

[Tim_Prescott]

I dont know if i agree with you, you should engage with Sungenis views rather then call them wacky, as I think he has a great love for the church and is only doing thinks for its betterment.

I think the problem with Sungenis is that although he is a genuine guy, he doesnt know how to apply his view in the most pastoral or helpful views at times. He has a history of allowing disagreements over theology become the end all be all and destroy good friendships unecessarily. Sadly he doesnt realise that by constantly washing his laundry in public, people like James White and Eric Svendsen are constanly using this to exploit the fact that having a infallible magisterium doesnt promote unity to the gospel as people against sola scriptura proclaim. Hence Sungenis is unintentionally at times playing into their calvinist reformed hands sadly.

I think though that like Scott Hahn ( alhtough like Sungenis I disagree with a lot of Hahn’s theology) he is a tremendous blessing to the Church and sadly if we had more people like Sungenis in the Church, the Church wouldnt be in the mess that it is in now.

Let continue to pray for Sungenis, that God would bless him and guide him.

 

[MrS]

Tim Prescott:

I dont know if i agree with you, you should engage with Sungenis views rather then call them wacky, as I think he has a great love for the church and is only doing thinks for its betterment.

I think the problem with Sungenis is that although he is a genuine guy, he doesnt know how to apply his view in the most pastoral or helpful views at times. He has a history of allowing disagreements over theology become the end all be all and destroy good friendships unecessarily. Sadly he doesnt realise that by constantly washing his laundry in public, people like James White and Eric Svendsen are constanly using this to exploit the fact that having a infallible magisterium doesnt promote unity to the gospel as people against sola scriptura proclaim. Hence Sungenis is unintentionally at times playing into their calvinist reformed hands sadly.

I think though that like Scott Hahn ( alhtough like Sungenis I disagree with a lot of Hahn’s theology) he is a tremendous blessing to the Church and sadly if we had more people like Sungenis in the Church, the Church wouldnt be in the mess that it is in now.

Let continue to pray for Sungenis, that God would bless him and guide him.

Some good points made here. Let’s try to distinguish between what Sungenis presents in the apologetic arena ("Not by…series etc) and what he presents in the area of physics. There are those (including some at CA) who have used their opinions in physics to discount Sungenis entirely. That conclusion falls into the wacky.

As for problems at CA… part of the management of a ministry of this size almost requires that there be a “crisis-of-the-month” to justify asking for more money. No money… no CA.

And for James White etal… he “fears” Sungenis far more than he fears anyone at CA. He knows he has more than met his match. Sungenis forgets more in a month than many apologists will ever learn.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

 

[Psalm45_9]

RikasAngel:

Hello All,

What is everone’s opinion of Bob Sungenis’ and Gerry Matatics Apologetics. They have an obvious love for the Catholic faith, but their Traditonalist perspectives about the Modern Liturgy and Creation Science are rather troubling. There is also apparantly a fair amount of animosity between Sungenis & Karl Keating. Mr. Sungenis has been a guest a few times on Catholic Answers Live, but now he has made several harsh comments regarding Karl Keating’s managment, finances, and relationships with Jimmy Akin and Patrick Madrid www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/keatings-gospel.htm.

Is this kind of stuff at all good for Catholic Apologetics. I feel the Church has enough problems defending itself from Fundamentalist Protestantism, Militant Secularism, and Cafeteria Catholicism to have deal with squabbles among our best and brightest. What do you all think?

I don’t like how they say the current liturgy does not fulfill your Sunday obligation.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Psalm45:9:

I don’t like how they say the current liturgy does not fulfill your Sunday obligation.

That’s a heresy. You’re right to not like it.

 

[piety101]

There is undoubtedly resentment between Sungenis, Keating, Atkins and Scott Hahn. Sungenis has criticized all of the above. There should not be bitterness between the brethren of our faith. This is wrong and sinful before our Lord. All parties should try to meet and reconcile their differences in love, FOR THE GOOD OF THE CHURCH.

                     I personally could give two hoots about geo centric-ism or if the liturgy services in our mass are meeting the standards of someone else. I just come to mass to praise our Lord and recieve him. That is a privilege. 

                     I feel all the men I mentioned, in their own way contribute greatly to our faith, but if they cannot show love towards one another, than their faith is in vane. For without love, we truly do not know God.I suspect there is petty jealousy here among one or two. I don't know for sure. Sungenis was once a speaker on EWTN and then the broadcast station removed him, because of his controversial views. So I believe this is when all this resentment started.

                        As for the remarks of our late Pope John Paul by Sungenis, concerning his being liberal, I don't know enough to comment. All I know is that I must be faithful to Christ and my church in my own little way and show love to all. That's my take on all this stuff.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

piety101:

All I know is that I must be faithful to Christ and my church in my own little way and show love to all. That’s my take on all this stuff.

Probably the shortest route to Heaven.

 

[reen12]

Regarding who’s saved and who’s not, simply read
about Sr. Faustina and the 'ocean of Divine Mercy."

reen12

 

[RikasAngel]

Hello All,

Personally, I consider Karl Keating to be a hero of mine. Mainly because he basically founded the New Apologetics Movement back in ‘79. Catholic Answers has been directly responsible for my proper Faith formation. I trust Karl and Jimmy Akin because they obviously Care abbout the Cathoilic Church. However, Sungenis’ claims were rather appauling. I’m sure Karl Could make more money being a Corprate or Trial Lawyer. Also, Karl seems to be a genuine guy and he appears to get along with Jimmy and Pat Madrid. So I don’t know whether Sungenis claims about Karl being a tyrant fit.

As for Scott Hahn, I respect him over many converts because he is a smart guy who came to the Faith in a scholarly way. He is the anti-thesis of what James White and other Protestants refer to as “Christians who did not understand Christianity”. He knows the Bible like the back of his hand and I have never heard him support a theology that wasn’t sound.
Really, the big problem I have is that this bickering is used by people like James White and other Anti-Catholics. It’s their “proof” that the “Roman” Church is no monolith. We need to pray that the Holy Spirit will help bring all the Men and Women of Faith Together in Love. :yup:

 

[SilentRick1]

JKirkLVNV:

That’s a heresy. You’re right to not like it.

Try looking at some of the things these men are criticizing, though. I’ve looked at some of these traditional websites, like truecatholic.org and novusordowatch.org, and what they criticize about the Mass might be legit, like the way some masses are carried out (yoga service, taxidermist altar, really empty sanctuaries). If you look at Novus Ordo Watch’s news archive, I think you would be appalled at what has been going on since Vatican II.

 

[GodBlessJoanie]

If they have disagreements that’s fine, but they need (as the supposed scholars they are) to keep it behind closed doors and work it out among themselves and come out as a UNITED FRONT FOR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
**
If THEY can’t agree – is there any real hope of uniting with our seperated bretheren???

Gentlemen, resolve your differences and come to us with the work of the Holy Spirit on your lips and in your writing.

Blessings,
Joanie

 

[J.W.B]

Tim Prescott:

I dont know if i agree with you, you should engage with Sungenis views rather then call them wacky, as I think he has a great love for the church and is only doing thinks for its betterment.

I think the problem with Sungenis is that although he is a genuine guy, he doesnt know how to apply his view in the most pastoral or helpful views at times. He has a history of allowing disagreements over theology become the end all be all and destroy good friendships unecessarily. Sadly he doesnt realise that by constantly washing his laundry in public, people like James White and Eric Svendsen are constanly using this to exploit the fact that having a infallible magisterium doesnt promote unity to the gospel as people against sola scriptura proclaim. Hence Sungenis is unintentionally at times playing into their calvinist reformed hands sadly.

I think though that like Scott Hahn ( alhtough like Sungenis I disagree with a lot of Hahn’s theology) he is a tremendous blessing to the Church and sadly if we had more people like Sungenis in the Church, the Church wouldnt be in the mess that it is in now.

Let continue to pray for Sungenis, that God would bless him and guide him.

What’s wrong with Scott Hann’s thology? I though he was Catholic.

 

[challenger]

RikasAngel:

What is everone’s opinion of Bob Sungenis’ and Gerry Matatics Apologetics. They have an obvious love for the Catholic faith, but their Traditonalist perspectives about the Modern Liturgy and Creation Science are rather troubling.

Sungenis is a highly skilled Apologist. I’m not that familiar with Matatics. His geocentrism is a little strange, but I don’t have the credentials to judge whether it’s right or wrong, and it doesn’t affect his views of the papacy.
PhilVas:

evolution is probably true, and yes Benedict XVI is the Pope.

Benedict XVI is against evolution.

WanderAimlessly:

I use to have the “Not by” series, but have gotten rid of them.

Why get rid of them? They’re perfectly good books.
Mr S:

And for James White etal… he “fears” Sungenis far more than he fears anyone at CA. He knows he has more than met his match. Sungenis forgets more in a month than many apologists will ever learn.

Psalm 45:9:

I don’t like how they say the current liturgy does not fulfill your Sunday obligation.

Sungenis believes it does- he’s even debating MAtatics on it.
J.W.B.:

What’s wrong with Scott Hann’s thology? I though he was Catholic.

He has some strange views. (I’m sure people have the same to say about Sungenis, though!)

 

[JKirkLVNV]

SilentRick1:

Try looking at some of the things these men are criticizing, though. I’ve looked at some of these traditional websites, like truecatholic.org and novusordowatch.org, and what they criticize about the Mass might be legit, like the way some masses are carried out (yoga service, taxidermist altar, really empty sanctuaries). If you look at Novus Ordo Watch’s news archive, I think you would be appalled at what has been going on since Vatican II.

Those are abuses for the most part (I’m not sure what you mean by an empty sanctuary…an empty church or a sanctuary empty of art?), but truecatholic and particularly novusordowatch are rad trad sites that attempt to mislead the faithful. I HAVE checked them out and they mix truth and falsehood. Novusordowatch is particularly sensationalistic (for example, the “Hindu” ceremony where the “Hindu” lady marked the old Holy Father’s head. She was Catholic and the mark had no religious connotations whatsoever, any more so than if he’d been presented with a lei in Hawaii). I wouldn’t trust anything a rad trad site said, not even for the weather. I’m not saying Sugenis is a rad trad, but it’s a heresy to discribe the Mass of Paul VI as deficient. The Mass being the Sacrifice, that would mean that for 40+ years, Hell has prevailed against the Church, Christ’s promise has failed and the Vicars of Christ and Successors to Saint Peter have lead us into error. There are egregious abuses and those need to be dealt with, but the efficacy of the Mass of Paul VI is assured by Christ’s promise to Peter.

 

[Marie]

Personaly, I find just about all of Matic’s and Sugenis theory’s offensive. They are LAY people and converts who seem to retain their Protestant views of their own opinion as something they need to share. They fall short of the mark of true apologists and Catholic’s by the very fact they have to put forth their opinion on Holy Mother Church as if they had a right given to them. They do not. They should have shut up and learned obiedience and the faith…and left the theories to those Christ put in charge. Vain and non-glorious is all that I find in their opinions. ICK!

 

[jordan]

RikasAngel:

What is everone’s opinion of Bob Sungenis’ and Gerry Matatics Apologetics. They have an obvious love for the Catholic faith, but their Traditonalist perspectives about the Modern Liturgy and Creation Science are rather troubling. There is also apparantly a fair amount of animosity between Sungenis & Karl Keating. Mr. Sungenis has been a guest a few times on Catholic Answers Live, but now he has made several harsh comments regarding Karl Keating’s managment, finances, and relationships with Jimmy Akin and Patrick Madrid www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/keatings-gospel.htm.

Is this kind of stuff at all good for Catholic Apologetics. I feel the Church has enough problems defending itself from Fundamentalist Protestantism, Militant Secularism, and Cafeteria Catholicism to have deal with squabbles among our best and brightest. What do you all think?

Fortunately, this insn’t Karl’s, Jimmy’s, Patrick’s, Bob’s, or Gerry’s house…because a house divided against itself cannot stand. I take heart that the NT is full of generally good people with divisive issues. The main thing is that we have a unifying Truth. I understand where all these guys are coming from, but if it’s not loyalty to the Catholic faith, then I know what side I am on. I’ll let them be human, because they are good men for pursuing Catholic Truth; but if they are not seeking unity with Pope Benedict XVI, and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, then they are not seeking unity with God, who blessed us with His (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’s) Church. I hope that they will continue what they are doing in CHARITY and TRUTH (and the greatest of these is CHARITY). God bless the Holy, Catholic Church; God bless these men who desire to serve Him, and may they continue to apply every fiber of their efforts to promoting the UNITY and TRUTH of the Catholic Faith…and not to anything less. I owe them all a debt I can never repay. They can take that to the big bank. God bless, all.

jb

 

[PhilVaz]

PhilVaz << evolution is probably true, and yes Benedict XVI is the Pope. >>

Challenger << Benedict XVI is against evolution >>

Unguided evolution, of course. I’m against that also. Philosophical or metaphysical naturalism, yep he’s against that.

God-guided (theistic) evolution, he’s all for it. See the International Theological Commission statement (paragraphs 62-70) written for him and approved by him last year, and his **Commentary on Genesis 1-3 here **.

"Now, more reflective spirits have long been aware that there is no either-or here. We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the “project” of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary – rather than mutually exclusive – realities.

“But let us look a little closer, because here, too, the progress of thought in the last two decades helps us to grasp anew the inner unity of creation and evolution and of faith and reason.” (Cardinal Ratzinger commentary on Genesis, “In the Beginning…”).

Both creation and evolution guided by a “creating Reason” and a “creating Intelligence.” That’s his position in his commentary on Genesis 1-3.

You don’t have to accept a 4.5 billion year old earth or macroevolution if you don’t want to, but Benedict XVI certainly does.

Phil P

 

[MrS]

Marie:

Personaly, I find just about all of Matic’s and Sugenis theory’s offensive. They are LAY people and converts who seem to retain their Protestant views of their own opinion as something they need to share. They fall short of the mark of true apologists and Catholic’s by the very fact they have to put forth their opinion on Holy Mother Church as if they had a right given to them. They do not. They should have shut up and learned obiedience and the faith…and left the theories to those Christ put in charge. Vain and non-glorious is all that I find in their ( )opinions. ICK!

Thanks, you have further convinced me of the great value of the above mentioned apologists (Sungenis is a revert, by the by). When I consider reading a book I like to see what others have said about it and who it is saying it. Ever read the “critiques” on the back of Sungenis’ books? hmmmm?

Just like some posters here… after many posts, you can consider the source… and go from there. :whacky: