Sungenis calls Karl Keating and Catholic Answers cowardy

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armydude12

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On Bob Sungenis’s web site, Sungenis calls Keating and C.A .cowards because thy refuse to critique other catholic apologists–namely Scott Hahn-=-(Hahn’s views on the femine nature of the Holy Spirit and his views on orginal sin(Adam Eve) are said to be in conflict to the Church’s understanding) The person who e-mailed Sungenis about this claimed Catholic Answers wont even allow it to be discussed on the forums. Sungenis further criticizes Karl Keating because, according to Sungenis, Keating has made a “pact” no to critique other apologst’s work who are “freinds” with Keating–the information is on Sungeis’s web site under the questons and answers section on the home page- does anyone have thoughts about Hahn’ views and Keating’s (Catholic Answers) apparent silence on this mater.
 
Armydude,

One thing that would always be helpful if you post something that someone else says, is to provide the support for what you are alleging. Not to worry, as I have your back in this matter. After a little Google:

catholicintl.com/qa/qa.htm#Question%2048

Now to my comment:

I find it terribly inapprorpiate to call someone cowardly because they do not agree with you. Mr. Keating is correct in not slandering another person, something Mr. Sungenis could learn from him. Scott Hahn has no misconception about the “gender” of the Holy Spirit.

As far as the accusation that Mr. Keating is compromising truth to keep the money rolling in, that smacks of petty jealousy. Being a good apologist does not exclude being a good administrator.
 
Sorry about that–I do not know how to post a link–I did provide the info where it could be found though, but thanks for posting–I do think your post is lacking though- Sungenis is not suggesting that Karl Keating slander Hahn but, simply address Hahn’s views publicly on his statements about the Holy Spirit being femine-Hahn is a very prominent Catholic name and IF his views are misleading people then it seems fair that these maters should be discussed publicly–(you cant simply dismiss sungenis’ views , as you did, by saying that hahn has no misconception of the Holy Spirit)
 
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armydude12:
Sorry about that–I do not know how to post a link–I did provide the info where it could be found though, but thanks for posting–I do think your post is lacking though- Sungenis is not suggesting that Karl Keating slander Hahn but, simply address Hahn’s views publicly on his statements about the Holy Spirit being femine-Hahn is a very prominent Catholic name and IF his views are misleading people then it seems fair that these maters should be discussed publicly–(you cant simply dismiss sungenis’ views , as you did, by saying that hahn has no misconception of the Holy Spirit)
I’m sure the CDF is quite aware of Scott Hahn’s writings, and as far as I know, he has not been corrected for them. He has not said anything that contradicts Church doctrine that I am aware of. Theologians are free to speculate on things that doctrines have not been defined on- that is partly how doctrines come to be defined. As with other disciplines, theology is so much more than memorizing facts.
 
If you say so—I have not studied Hahn’s views on this matter (Holy Spirit) extensively–however, Sungenis seems to imply(if not blatantly assert) that Hahn’s view(s) are in contradiction to the Church’s understanding–so i guees my point is (since this controversey has been going on for some time) why not a frank discussion about it from(not mention from Scott Hahn himself) Catholic Answer’s staff–since the matter MAY lead people into error–I think that is fair request—IT IS KARL’S SEEMINGLY REFUSAL TO DO SO THAT HAS SUNGENIS LABELING HIM A “COWARD.” (OR COWARDLY TO BE MORE SPECIFIC)
 
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armydude12:
you cant simply dismiss sungenis’ views , as you did, by saying that hahn has no misconception of the Holy Spirit)
Yes I can, sort of. One of the great time savers is ignoring incredulous and extreme opinions. I did not say Dr. Hahn has no misconceptions, only that he must be totally aware that the Holy Spirit is not male. Was the issue just a matter of some misconception, then that would be totally valid. We all have some less than perfect understanding of God.

Back when this issue was posted multiple times the accusation was made that Scott Hahn considered the Holy Spirit femine. That is not just some minor detail, but heresy (not to mention insanity). It may be I am misled by the earlier threads, but I am not too concerned about anyone being led into heresy by Dr. Hahn. It appears his peers are the only ones who are come to strange conclusions.
 
Bob Sungenis’s comments are partly about Scott Hahn, but his complaint is more generic than that. Here is what he says at his web site:
  1. “Catholic Answers has proven over and over again that they [sic] are not in Catholic apologetics solely for the sake of truth, but mainly for the sake of keeping up the status quo and to keep the money rolling in.”
Bob is showing his jealousy again.

Yes, Catholic Answers has more “money rolling in” than does his group. Catholic Answers has 43 salaried employees, while Bob’s group has one (himself) plus two guys who apparently are volunteers (one is a student, the other works for a marketing company). From what I can gather from Bob’s own writings, his organization’s gross income is about 1% of that of Catholic Answers.

Why the big disparity in employees and budget? I think it’s because Catholic Answers accomplishes so much more than Bob’s group–it likely reaches more than 1,000 times as many people as does his outfit, and it doesn’t go off onto goofy tangents such as geocentrism. The credit for the success of Catholic Answers’ outreach goes to the 42 very talented, professional, and dedicated people who work with me.
  1. “Karl Keating, I’m sorry to say, has shown himself to be quite cowardly, since he will not address the tough issues facing us today in our own Catholic Church, and he has trained his staff to do likewise.”
I thought Bob read my E-Letter, “This Rock,” and the materials at our web site, including answers given by our apologists at these discussion forums. I guess I was mistaken. No one who has read those things would think that Catholic Answers “will not address the tough issues.”

Bob knows nothing about the internal workings of Catholic Answers, so he would not know whether or not I have “trained [my] staff” to avoid the “tough issues.” He just made up that charge because it sounded good to him.

Similarly, he knows nothing about my personal life, but that has not stopped him from repeatedly (and gratuitously) claiming that my wife and I are childless, which is not the case–as anyone who has read my December 28 E-Letter knows. He could have learned the facts from almost any of my acquaintances, but he didn’t even bother to ask. He just presumed.
  1. “You need to understand that Catholic apologetics today is based on ‘who knows who’ and ‘who will promote who.’ Most of the current apologists have made a pact not to critique each other’s work, no matter how bad it may be.”
We have “made a pact”? It must be such a great secret that neither I nor any of the apologists I know is aware of it. (When Bob can’t find an answer that satisfies him, he decides there must be a conspiracy.)

If apologists such as Steve Ray, Dave Armstrong, Al Kresta, Jeff Cavins, Pete Vere, Patrick Madrid, Marcus Grodi, Jim Burnham, Jimmy Akin, Rosalind Moss, Fr. Vincent Serpa, Tim Staples, and Jim Blackburn (the list could be extended) have written or spoken contrary to the faith, I am not aware of it. That’s why there has been no “critique” of their work.
  1. Why does Bob Sungenis say such outlandish (and often mean) things about Catholic Answers and about me?
Partly, as I said, it seems to be a matter of professional jealousy. Catholic Answers has been successful, and his organization has not been.

But Bob also has a personal animosity toward me. He has not forgiven me for not hiring him in 1993. In retrospect, I see it was one of the most prudent judgments I ever made.
 
I mean no disrespect and I do see that Mr. Keating said that the list could be extended; but I did notice that Dr. Hahn (who’s apostolate led me back to the Church) was not mentioned in the quote below but he figures prominently in this discussion. I number among those who would like to see a discussion on the topic of Dr. Hahn’s theology on the Holy Spirit.

Thank you,
MP

“If apologists such as Steve Ray, Dave Armstrong, Al Kresta, Jeff Cavins, Pete Vere, Patrick Madrid, Marcus Grodi, Jim Burnham, Jimmy Akin, Rosalind Moss, Fr. Vincent Serpa, Tim Staples, and Jim Blackburn (the list could be extended) have written or spoken contrary to the faith, I am not aware of it. That’s why there has been no “critique” of their work.”
 
Y’know… I was just thinking. If so many are so concerned with what Dr. Hahn has said about the Holy Spirit, then why hasn’t someone bothered to contact him about it and asked for some clarification. Here’s your chance: ScottHahn.com!

It doesn’t bother me one way or the other, since I don’t really think that God has any “gender issues” or that we as human beings can completely comprehend the mystery of the essence of God. This is not blind faith, but a lack of faith in my own human capacity to get my mind around all that the Most High is.
After all…this is the God who told us that His name is “I AM”.
Pax vobiscum,
 
I didn’t list Scott Hahn’s name in my previous message because Scott does not consider himself so much an apologist as a theologian. Certainly he is an evangelist, but he usually does not occupy himself with answering questions about the faith, which is a chief task of apologists. There are many other noteworthy evangelists (Fr. Benedict Groeschel is just one) who normally are not described as apologists.
 
Karl,

"CA not tackling the ‘tough issue?’
That’s a nonsense statement! Must in the past month, CA Live has tackled the tough issues: Homosexuality, Abortion, The Supreme Court and among others. Since we Do live in troubled times, CA Live has progressed since 1997 a hundred fold. Just look at the first three years and the topics mentioned.

Karl, with the release of “The Voters Guide”, CA Live has jumped light-years ahead other Catholic organizations.

Bob Sungenis may be looking at ‘the grass which is greener on the other side of the fence’. All of us are human, but pride is a deadly sin. I pray for Bob.
 
WOW KARL KEATING!!! I AM SHOCKED AT WHAT YOU WROTE AND I AM ALSO SHOCKED AT THE WAY THESE PEOPLE “KISS YOUR BUTT” ON THESE FORUMS—let me first say I am on no one’s side–I do not know Sungenis or Mr. Keating personally. Now Karl, you know that just because your organization is bigger does no necesarily mean it is better. It may be an indicator, but it doesnt mean it is better… I also understand that you said that in response to Sungenis’ comment about you “keeping the money rolling.” You said Sungenis said this out of jealousy—I dont know whether he did or but, I agree that comment is a little over the line. Karl some of your comments “beg the question.” I don’t know if you did it on purpose or just misunderstood what Sungenis was getting at–I THNK IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT SUNGENIS DID NOT MEAN C.A. DIDN’T TACKLE TOUGH ISSUES IN REGARDS TO ABORTION, HOMOSEXUALITY, CONTRACEPTON, FORNICATION ETC–C’MON KARL!!! It is obvious that Sungenis’ point is that FOR SOME REASON YOU OR CATHOLIC ANSWERS WONT TALK ABOUT HAHN’S VEIWS ON THE HOLY SPIRIT…(SUGESTION: YOUR NEXT E-LETTER–DISCUSS HAHN’S VEIWS) The topic has been talked about and talked about yet no direct public comment by you or Akin or Staples. As far as your statment that you didnt include Hahn in your above list because “he doesnt consider himself an apologist.“KARL WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, GET A LIFE ON THAT ONE–Hahn may be a theologian but he is and cetainly was an apologist for years–his books such as” Rome Sweet Home” defend the faith and he has engaged in public formal debate(against Bob Knudeson Justification and Sola Scriptra)–Karl JUST COME OUT AND TELL US HOW YOU REALLY FEEL ABOUT HAHN’S WRITINGS IN REGARD TO THE HOLY SPIRIT-- If you don’t then don’t be surprised if people call you cowardily at least in this regard.
 
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armydude12:
If you say so—I have not studied Hahn’s views on this matter (Holy Spirit) extensively–
So, IOW, in addition to name-calling and shouting, you’re basing your personal attacks on hearsay. I’m pretty sure there’s a Commandment against that sort of thing.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Armydude,

Chill out. You obviously have a personal axe to grind with Karl. Why subject the rest of us to it? Thanks.

p.s. Using all capital letters in your posts really diminishes your credibility.
 
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m4dc4p:
Chill out. You obviously have a personal axe to grind with Karl. Why subject the rest of us to it? Thanks.

p.s. Using all capital letters in your posts really diminishes your credibility.
shhhhh, he’s trying to shout…he thinks we can’t hear him…hehehehe
 
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armydude12:
WOW KARL KEATING!!! I AM SHOCKED AT WHAT YOU WROTE AND I AM ALSO SHOCKED AT THE WAY THESE PEOPLE “KISS YOUR BUTT” ON THESE FORUMS—.
I am glad that I made my response before Mr. Keating did. I find it telling that I noticed the petty tone on the web page before Mr. Keating pointed out the reason.

I for one am very much in line with the Apologist at Catholic Answers primarily because we are all following the same standard, i.e., the one set forth in the Catechism and the current leadership of our Church. I heard Bishop Fulton Sheen use the analogy of a beam which guides an airplane to a safe landing. If some stray oustside this beam (to the left or right) is it any wonder why they have fewer followers?

You wrote you are shocked. Why should it be a mild surprise, much less a “shock” that on his website, their are people that agree with him, much less that he would post here?

FYI - I do not always agree with Mr. Keating. Don’t get me started on “Amazing Grace.”
 
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armydude12:
thy refuse to critique other catholic apologists–namely Scott Hahn-=-(Hahn’s views on the femine nature of the Holy Spirit.
**Catechism of the Catholic Church

370** In no way is God in man’s image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. …
Scott Hahn teaches that the Holy Spirit is feminine? Show the evidence. I find it hard to believe that Scott Hahn would make such an elementary mistake.
 
General reminder:

Please self-edit all posts for tone and content before clicking the “Submit” button. If the thread continues to deteriorate, it will have to be closed. Thanks!
 
People please read what I actually wrote–I never said that Hahn’s veiws were heretical—so the person, I think his name is (in one of the above posts) michnce or something like that, who said I was engaging in hear say is wrong–what I said was it is a fact that many people, including Sungenis, have critcized(publicly) Hahn’s veiws on the Holy Spirit—I merely asked, since this has gone on for some time now, if C.A. would comment–I was surprised that when Karl .(and people posting actually didnt see this mistake) was critcized,by Sungenis, for not takin on the “tough issues” (which obvioulsy meant the crtique of other apologist’s veiws) Karl seemed to use a smokescreen argument (see karl’s above post) and tried to say C.A. tackles the tough issues such as Abortion, Homosexuality, etc._ A point which is obvious and had noting to do with what Sungenis said. (by the wayI have no ax to grind)
 
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