Superfluous Words

[BarbaraTherese]

Pug:

Would some people be willing to post specific examples of superflous speech in action? I’ve had trouble with understanding just what is and isn’t it. For example, when I see my brother I often joke with him as the first thing. It works well to show him I’m glad to see him. He is very secular and I’m much older than him. I could have gone with the serious elder over the years, but instead I’ve gone with the teasing elder who can be relied upon to be there for him. That role fits better into our family mix. It could be taken that my words are just to make him laugh, but from my perspective that is not the case. They tell him in a comfortable way that I am very glad to see him, and him specifically, because I joke only with him in that certain way, and not my other brother. The other one gets his own form of greeting.

Huh, maybe I guess examples of what is good joking and good non-superflous interaction. Honestly, I don’t know how to build up social bonds without some teasing and joking and extra chat beyond “edifying” stuff. I build bonds with interested questions about hostas and lilies and water features and whether or not Hickory is better than Mesquite (it is, by the way).

Hi Pug…

What you speak of above is for the edification of the other person. You wish to make him at ease and to communicate your joy in being with him and you adopt the means you insight are necessary to effect these positive results. This is not gossip or idle chatter or superfluous conversation.
We understand much more today about human communication than in the days when our classical spiritual works were written.
In reading these works we need to put them into the context of our own lives and common sense and with some works other relevant contexts too. The works are most edifying and also very true. St. Albert and the first person to form a religious way of life and write rule for it - very simple and short rule, in his closing comments to that rule wrote “common sense is the guide of all the virtues”.

Most of these works are written by religious and for religious whose lifestyle, duties etc. are entirely different to a lay life. In other words, we need to use our common sense and get the intrinsic spiritual theology in these works into the context of our ordinary lay life.

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

St. Albert advises that common sense should be the guide of all the virtues and I would add love as well!

If I have made up my mind not to eat meat on Friday and am a guest on a Friday at someone’s home for dinner and they serve up steak…do I refuse it because its a Friday - no! I eat it in order not to upset my host in anyway…charity is my guide and my common sense tells me which way to go.

If I have made up my mind to live in silence without radio or television, music etc. and a visitor calls and remarks that it is very quiet. I ask them if they would like some music…Charity and common sense.

I do not think there is anything more important than love of the other for the love of God!

I think it may have been St. Benedict who wrote “if you are at prayer and charity calls, then let charity be your prayer”.
Barb

 

[AlanFromWichita]

BarbaraTherese:

If I have made up my mind not to eat meat on Friday and am a guest on a Friday at someone’s home for dinner and they serve up steak…do I refuse it because its a Friday - no! I eat it in order not to upset my host in anyway…charity is my guide and my common sense tells me which way to go.

Of course, this is the same strategy St. Paul uses…

1 Cor 10:27: “If an unbeliever invites you and you want to go, eat whatever is placed before you, without raising questions on grounds of conscience.”

Alan

 

[BarbaraTherese]

AlanFromWichita:

Of course, this is the same strategy St. Paul uses…

1 Cor 10:27: “If an unbeliever invites you and you want to go, eat whatever is placed before you, without raising questions on grounds of conscience.”

Alan

Hi there Alan…good to cacha on CAF:tiphat: …

Thanks for the quote from St. Paul…and a great advocate of Charity and common sense…

Barb:bounce: …a fellow Bipolarer!

 

[thistle]

AlanFromWichita:

Of course, this is the same strategy St. Paul uses…

1 Cor 10:27: “If an unbeliever invites you and you want to go, eat whatever is placed before you, without raising questions on grounds of conscience.”

Alan

Its not a requirement not to eat meat on a Friday, apart from Lent. The requirement is to do some from of penance on a Friday so you could eat the meat and do some other penance instead.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

thistle:

Its not a requirement not to eat meat on a Friday, apart from Lent. The requirement is to do some from of penance on a Friday so you could eat the meat and do some other penance instead.

I agree.

Alan

 

[contemplative]

No matter how good food is, if poison is mixed with it, it may cause the death of him who eats it. So it is with conversation. A single bad word, an evil action, an unbecoming joke, is often enough to harm one or more young listeners, and may later cause them to lose God’s grace.

– St. John Bosco

 

[contemplative]

The man who is filled with the Holy Spirit speaks in different languages. These different languages are different ways of witnessing to Christ, such as humility, poverty, patience and obedience; we speak in those languages when we reveal in ourselves these virtues to others. Actions speak louder than words; let your words teach and your actions speak. We are full of words but empty of actions, and therefore are cursed by the Lord, since he himself cursed the fig tree when he found no fruit but only leaves. Gregory says: "A law is laid upon the preacher to practice what he preaches.: It is useless for a man to flaunt his knowledge of the law if he undermines its teaching by his actions.

But the apostles *spoke as the Spirit gave them the gift of speech*. Happy the man whose words issue from the Holy Spirit and not from himself! For some men speak as their own character dictates, but steal the words of others and present them as their own and claim the credit for them. The Lord refers to such men and others like them in Jeremiah: *So, then, I have a quarrel with the prophets that steal my words from each other. I have a quarrel with the prophets, says the Lord, who have only to move their tongues to utter oracles. I have a quarrel with the prophets who make prophecies out of lying dreams, who recount them and lead my people astray with their lies and their pretensions. I certainly never sent them or commissioned them, and they serve no good purpose for this people, says the Lord.*

• *We should speak, then, as the Holy Spirit gives us the gift of speech. Our humble and sincere request to the Spirit for ourselves should be that we may bring the day of Pentecost to fulfillment, insofar as he infuses us with his grace, by using our bodily senses in a perfect manner and by keeping the commandments. Likewise we shall request that we may be filled with a keen sense of sorrow and with fiery tongues for confessing the faith, so that our deserved reward may be to stand in the blazing splendor of the saints and to look upon the triune God.

~ St. Anthony of Padua, Priest ~

 

[contemplative]

A spiritual guide should be silent when discretion requires and speak when words are of service. Otherwise he may say what he should not or be silent when he should speak. Indiscreet speech may lead men into error and an imprudent silence may leave in error those who could have been taught. Pastors who lack foresight hesitate to say openly what is right because they fear losing the favor of men. As the voice of truth tells us, such leaders are not zealous pastors who protect their flocks, rather they are like mercenaries who flee by taking refuge in silence when the wolf appears.
The Lord reproaches them through the prophet: *They are dumb dogs that cannot bark. *On another occasion he complains: You did not advance against the foe or set up a wall in front of the house of Israel, so that you might stand fast in battle on the day of the Lord. To advance against the foe involves a bold resistance to the powers of this world in defense of the flock. To stand fast in battle on the day of the Lord means to oppose the wicked enemy out of love for what is right.
When a pastor has been afraid to assert what is right, has he not turned his back and fled by remaining silent? Whereas if he intervenes on behalf of the flock, he sets up a wall against the enemy in front of the house of Israel. Therefore, the Lord again says to his unfaithful people: *Your prophets saw false and foolish visions and did not point out your wickedness, that you might repent of your sins. *The name of prophet is sometimes given in the sacred writings to teachers who both declare the present to be fleeting and reveal what is to come. The word of God accuses them of seeing false visions because they are afraid to reproach men for their faults and thereby lull the evildoer with an empty promise of safety. Because they fear reproach, they keep silent and fail to point out the sinner’s wrongdoing.
The word of reproach is a key that unlocks a door, because reproach reveals a fault of which the evildoer is himself often unaware. That is why Paul says of the bishop: He must be able to encourage men in sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. For the same reason God tells us through Malachi: The lips of the priest are to preserve knowledge, and men shall look to him for the law, for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts. Finally, that is also the reason why the Lord warns us through Isaiah: Cry out and be not still; raise you voice in a trumpet call.
Anyone ordained a priest undertakes the task of preaching, so that with a loud cry he may go on ahead of the terrible judge who follows. If, then, a priest does not know how to preach, what kind of cry can such a dumb herald utter? It was to bring this home that the Holy Spirit descended in the form of tongues on the first pastors, for he causes those whom he has filled, to speak out spontaneously.

~ St. Gregory the Great ~

 

[BarbaraTherese]

thistle:

Its not a requirement not to eat meat on a Friday, apart from Lent. The requirement is to do some from of penance on a Friday so you could eat the meat and do some other penance instead.

Quite correct Thistle and hi there!, nowadays one is free to choose the act of self denial one chooses, including to choose to not eat meat if such is penitential to a person. The problem had become with Friday as a day of penance that the penance factor had been almost completely lost or the motivation lost by replacing that with simply not eating meat. Many had no idea that to not eat meat on Friday was because it was supposed to be self denial. I know here in Australia, many people were eating prawns, fish and chips all sorts of things other than meat and thoroughly enjoying the experience i.e. the essence of a Friday was lost to many. A day of penance or self denial.

Penance is drawn from the word ‘metanoia’ meaning reversal of direction which is somewhat difficult to really difficult, hence penitential…or denying the self.

Thanks for the response to my post…

Barb
Sth. Aust.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

contemplative:

No matter how good food is, if poison is mixed with it, it may cause the death of him who eats it. So it is with conversation. A single bad word, an evil action, an unbecoming joke, is often enough to harm one or more young listeners, and may later cause them to lose God’s grace.

– St. John Bosco

Hello Contemplative…excellent point and a reason to watch our words in company, any kind of company, with real care. We are responsible and accountable for our speech, while not taking that into the ridiculous. At times I should think almost everyone says something that perhaps later regrets. Or insights something entirely valid that one did not insight at the time of speaking, writing whatever. We remain sinners, striving sinners against sin. Obviously the degree of silence asked in a monastery would be completely ridiculous and outside common sense in some situations for those of us called to live, work and evangelize in the world. In fact a monastic silence in some situations in the world would do anything but eveangelize and give good witness to The Gospels. Common sense!

But the point you make is worth the pondering for sure to my mind.

Barb

 

[AlanFromWichita]

BarbaraTherese:

Penance is drawn from the word ‘metanoia’ meaning reversal of direction which is somewhat difficult to really difficult, hence penitential…or denying the self.

Thanks for the response to my post…

Barb
Sth. Aust.

Dear Barb,

Thank you for the information, but I saw a completely different conclusion in your statement.

If it means reversal, that also is a change, not necessarily associated with “difficult” which IMO requires a point of view and bases of judgment in addition to an accepted characteristic of said practice.

Denying of self, then, becomes one strategy, and is not necessarily a direct act of will as one may humble himself simply by exalting oneself – and letting the chips fall as it were.

So when you’re saying “deny the self” I am honor bound to defend the accuracy because I believe every word you write – limited to my context of understanding and of course if you were somehoe possessed with an evil or jokester demon I’d have to pick that out from clues your true self would inevitably provide, as you cannot totally seperate your words from their true origin, even though the word choice per se may have been influenced heavily by bait-loading by the false-self, in part to connect with them and give them a mystical update even if they seem to disagree with you – even to the point of violence – when their truth capacity gets full and they need to digest before they can give any better. As we learn to make the truth more powerful, it becomes “meal in a pill” and eventually becomes presupposed with faith so that we may not actually need to give away a pill. When that happens we can quit pushing our pills, advice, and fertility notions and die in peace, knowing we have no work undone.

I haven’t a clue what possessed me to write all that; I never heard anything like it so I hope it makes sense to you. It does in a way to me, too, but I’m afraid it will just come across as so much gibberish. I suppose that has its purpose to, as love should not be awakened before its time. Somehow I don’t think I’ll understand completely why I’ve written this until I see how Barb reacts. :whacky:

Wow, I’ve never been this wacked out, but I’ve also never been at such peace – therefore I can endure such thoughts without the world judging me and locking me up!

Alan

 

[BarbaraTherese]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear Barb,

Thank you for the information, but I saw a completely different conclusion in your statement.

If it means reversal, that also is a change, not necessarily associated with “difficult” which IMO requires a point of view and bases of judgment in adto, as love should not be awakened before its time. Somehow I don’t think I’ll understand completely why I’ve written this until I see how Barb reacts.

Edited in the interests of space - see Alan’s Post.

Wow, I’ve never been this wacked out, but I’ve also never been at such peace – therefore I can endure such thoughts without the world judging me and locking me up!

Alan

Hi there Alan…I did answer the above and then somehow lost my Post and cant find it! I will come back to your Post and write another response as soon as I can.

As to my reaction…a bit confused on some scores, but no baseball bat in hand:nope:

Thanks for the response, Alan …

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Thank you for the information, but I saw a completely different conclusion in your statement.

If it means reversal, that also is a change, not necessarily associated with “difficult” which IMO requires a point of view and bases of judgment in addition to an accepted characteristic of said practice.

Hi there Alan…(no baseball!) …

Not too sure what conclusion you saw Alan.

I hope I am reading you correctly, while remaining quite unsure that I do and my poverty. I did loose you completely in your fourth paragraph.

In the context of this thread or what has evolved out of it, penance is meant to be something to some degree difficult and a ‘going against the self’ or a reversal of direction: not going with the self but against it as a spirutal exercise in self denial - as I see it from one angle and change and difficulty. As I understand matters the word penance does come from ‘metanoia’ and means reversal of direction (this is not something I invented). From another angle, when I say my penance after Confession, I make reparation for my sinfulness obediently and promise with God’s Help to strive to do better in the future - I repent. I am going to try with God’s Help to reverse direction in my life and cease my sinfulness as my ideal.
If I deny myself something in some area, then I am effecting change and reversing a direction i.e. the usual direction of the self and I am going against myself.
Penance or self denial can also be reparational in motivation when I offer it (the difficulty of it at times) for my own sins or for some other reason. Penance I think if it is easy is not penance per se.
At times I may be able to effect some sort of change that I do not find difficult at all, then I have lost the intrinsic meaning of penance i.e. the change is not penitential in the context of this Post.

Denying of self, then, becomes one strategy, and is not necessarily a direct act of will as one may humble himself simply by exalting oneself – and letting the chips fall as it were.

I dont quite insight your meaning here either. "Becomes a strategy’ to achieve what? I tend towards ‘exalting onself’ is not a positive move. If The Lord or another exalts one, then so be it - altho if another should exalt me it does not at mean that their assessment of me is correct. Exaltation is always a humbling matter I tend towards, altho remaining very doubtful about self exaltation which I tend towards is not at all a positive move as stated nor can I see anyway and with limited fallible insight how self exultation can lead to humility. I tend towards a humble person would strive to deflect absolutely any exultation from himself/herself to The Lord where it belongs, not to own it to oneself as in self exultation - but perhaps I read you wrongly.

Today I am raised up by God’s consolation (exalted) and then tomorrow I am cast down over my sins (put down). We are as ready to exalt as to put down.

As I insight human nature, we are just as ready to exalt as to put down…we retain in most cases I should think a potential to readily do either. Exaltation is not something that I could personally feel comfortable with I dont think and for those reasons. Mostly the person who exalts another is just as ready to put down should circumstances to them dictate. Just the way we seem to be constructed. Not only that human assessments remain entirely fallible. The person who may exult me today for something they anyway seem to have seen in me, will be just as ready to put me down for some evil they perceive in me tomorrow as a capability, not necessarily strictly applies. In other words, to me human nature seems to shift like a windmill in most any breeze. Exaltation always belongs to The Lord and only Him and He disperses his gifts as He Wills not where they are earnt because I dont think that is possible yet I am fallible, often very fallible!!!
Sorry Alan, but I cannot see with my limited insight how self exultation could lead to humility .

Sorry I lost you in that fourth paragraph Alan.

Regards - Barb:whacky: