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pablope
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Servant19
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In order for the Apostles to know that Jesus is God, one of two things needs to happen. Either:
- Jesus states “I am God” (which He never did btw) OR
- The Apostles already knew God before Jesus and therefore could deduce that He was God.
It is clear that they saw Jesus as an “equal with God” (and rightly so, I believe that too) but not actually God.
Maybe Satan has succeeded in planting these seeds in you. Jesus never said He was God, so who are you following?
But Judaism does not believe Jesus is God. In fact Judaism denies any possibility that God can be made manifest in human form.
So I ask again, do you think that Judaism is Satanic?
Thankyou yes, I never responded to this, my apologies.
Baha’u’llah does not submit to anyone. He is the Return of Jesus in the glory of the Father. Does the Father have to submit to an earthly authority?
When Jesus returns He has to submit Himself to the Pope?? Heaven forbid…
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Techno2000
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Gary_Sheldrake
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Good Morning PR: I have often wondered if you simply miss the larger points or deliberately obfuscate for the sake of argument. Regardless of the source, the point remains that the whole idea of original sin that you are putting forth on behalf of 3,000 years of teaching on the matter is that the whole idea is a tangled hierarchy, in that you cannot know the difference between good and evil and make proper choices until the knowledge of the difference between good and evil are imparted on you. If God was the source of that knowledge, then only God had the knowledge, and whether or not the tree was the conduit of that knowledge is superfluous, and I think you know that. And not having the knowledge, Adam and Eve could not have possibly known that what they were doing was evil because they wouldn’t have known the difference. The potential for evil, and the venue for evil, and the actors in the drama were all created and put in place by the same One who put everything in place if He is in fact the source of all creation, and of course, we maintain that God is indeed the source of all creation. That includes all things, not just the good things. Knowing this, I am a peace with myself completely, and do not blame myself a bit over a thing that never happened, nor do I think that I or anyone else is marked with some lingering mark from it. It simply didn’t happen. Because as I said, the premise of the story is a tangled hierarchy, otherwise known as a strange loop.
Thank you,
Gary
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PRmerger
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Heh. I often think the same of you.
Do you really not understand how A and E attempting to eat from the Tree was an act that said, “We want to DECLARE what is good and evil, not DISCERN what is good and evil!”
Are you deliberately missing this point?
And why do you keep asserting that we had no knowledge of good and evil except through eating from the Tree?
Why do you cling to that bit of misinformation, despite being corrected on this ad nauseum?
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PRmerger
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I find this comment to be the elitist of the greatest magnitude.
For 3000 years theological giants, peasants, intellectuals, those with 3rd grade education, Jews, Christians of every flavor… have acknowledged the events of Genesis as actually happening (but not necessarily literally so).
And a man in 21st century America decides: all you folks are believing a lie.
It’s actually the
All of us have been duped, eh?
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Techno2000
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That’s the whole point in the way Jesus came into the world was to keep hidden from Satan that he was the God the Son, otherwise the Devil would have never instigated the Death of Jesus.
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Gary_Sheldrake
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Good Morning PR Merger: I have to point out again that it was your post earlier in the thread where The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was brought up, and I simply replied with regards to that. Trees and apples aside, why would Adam and Eve decide to declare what is good and evil if they didn’t know good from evil, and evil wasn’t a part of their existence at that point? Why would they care? And if they had some prior knowledge that disobeying God was evil, then they would have already known good from evil and would have had no purpose in deciding learn of it.Heh. I often think the same of you.
Do you really not understand how A and E attempting to eat from the Tree was an act that said, “We want to DECLARE what is good and evil, not DISCERN what is good and evil!”
Are you deliberately missing this point?
And why do you keep asserting that we had no knowledge of good and evil except through eating from the Tree?
Why do you cling to that bit of misinformation, despite being corrected on this ad nauseum?
That said, you have said that this has nothing to do with eating fruit from a tree, and that’s okay with me. Having come to this new level of discourse, can you say in what way Adam and Eve were disobedient to God, and what was the act they committed to make them disobedient? I would be interested in knowing what that was. If we don’t know what it was, how can we assign blame. If we do know what it was that they did, we should be able to say it.
Thank you,
Gary
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PRmerger
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No denial here.
That was indeed me.Apples? Who mentioned apples? Is that in Genesis?
(Answer: nope).
Just a little quibble, here. There is no mention of apples in Genesis.
Because they, like folks today, want to declare that what their morality is the same as what God would want to be moral. Rather than conforming their morality to what God has placed in their hearts.
Satan isn’t evil?
Because they wanted to be God.
Egg-zactly. They already knew it was evil to disobey God. That’s why they hid.
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PRmerger
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http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/facepalm/grand/disappointed_gif_44556.gif
The act was disobedience. The sin was pride.
From another magnificent encyclical, Fides et Ratio:
The symbol is clear: man was in no position to discern and decide for himself what was good and what was evil, but was constrained to appeal to a higher source. The blindness of pride deceived our first parents into thinking themselves sovereign and autonomous, and into thinking that they could ignore the knowledge which comes from God.
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Gary_Sheldrake
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From PRmerger:
I am open to changing my mind if you have evidence otherwise. But let me say that I do not have either the right or the inclination to tell anyone else what to believe, but I am compelled to be honest about what I do and don’t believe, and I am happy to have polite discussions about it, which is what we are doing.
Thank you,
Gary
Good Morning again PR Merger: I have never made claims with regard to whether I am an elitist, or a good person or a horrible person. I am simply having a discussion with you.
It stands to reason that the teachings of theological giants and intellectuals should be sound enough to stand up to some simple questions and align with simple reason. Truth can stand up to anything, and does not require anyone to avert their gaze or bow to it. It doesn’t need to be treated with piety. Truth can take whatever you throw at it, and therefore some honest questions shouldn’t be a problem. Applying reason shouldn’t be a problem either. As for third graders, Christians and Jews of every stripe are concerned, it is my observation that we have been well trained from early in life to accept what we are told and do what we are told. This is simply compliance with strongly reinforced social and cultural pressures, and does not necessarily imply truth.
If you are referring to me, I do not believe there was a garden or an apple or two people from whom all other people came. We are primates and we came from lower primates.
I am open to changing my mind if you have evidence otherwise. But let me say that I do not have either the right or the inclination to tell anyone else what to believe, but I am compelled to be honest about what I do and don’t believe, and I am happy to have polite discussions about it, which is what we are doing.
People willingly subscribe to what they will. We all have existential anxiety, and accepting stories that offer a hope that is beyond what we can see helps to mitigate the desperation we feel. I don’t look down on that.
Thank you,
Gary
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Gary_Sheldrake
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What did they do that was disobedient and what were they proud of?
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Gary_Sheldrake
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What did they do that was disobedient and what were they proud of?
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Gary_Sheldrake
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The vine is not something other than its branches.No denial here.
Because they wanted to be God.
What did they do to disobey God?
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Sarcelle
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I agree.Thankyou Techno, and my love for you is similarly expressed.
I like to think my way to heaven AND will myself to heaven amongst so many other things.
I love to hear REASONABLE responses to my questions. I would readily embrace Catholicism if my questions were answered first and foremost (if you look above, you have ignored several of my questions) and secondly if the answers were reasonable.
Reason is our gift from God. I like to use it
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When I was at university, I took a physics course, Thermodynamics. One of the many things I learned from this course was that the life itself was the greatest of miracles.
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Sarcelle
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This thread had been derailed.
I thought we were discussing supernatural events not Adam and Eve.
Maybe you guys should start another thread?
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Gary_Sheldrake
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But you also said they hid. Why did they hide if they were proud?
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Sarcelle
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Gary_Sheldrake
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You are right Saracelle. On that topic, let me offer this: If something actually happens that is outside of daily or normal experience or customary understanding, then it’s natural nonetheless, not supernatural. Perhaps infrequent, perhaps unexplained, but natural.
Thank you,
Gary
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