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Samson01
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I have been finding St. Ignatius spiritual discernment easier to follow. How would that tie in to Carmalite spirituality?
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InLight247
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Dave, thank you so much for posting the teaching of Carmalite formation. Reading your posts made my day.
I have a question I don’t quite know how to ask. Brother Lawrence’s *Practice of the Presence of God *is all the time one of my favorite. I first heard this book from you here on CAF back in 2006. Before reading it, I already had a habit of praying rosary and Chaplet from morning till night whenever there was a chance. Though most of the prayers were vocal back then, I remember I was also thinking of God throughout the day – driving, walking, in the elevator, in bath room, working, in the meeting, even rarely in movie theater, or watching TV … I frequently engaged in a interior conversation with Him. Reading Brother Lawrence excited me for I was able to well identify with his teaching.
In the beginning, my recollection was definitely acquired. It was out of my own efforts and needs. After so many years, the habit of “dwelling upon God” and “gazing on Him” continues and matures. My question is, is this constant (sometimes I do poorly) being with the Lord considered acquired, or could it has become infused? All is God’s grace, in this sense, it may become his infusion? Otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to do it.
I don’t know if my question makes sense. Thanks for your help.
D
DBT
Guest
Well they complement each other . . . as would St. Francis de Sales “Introduction to the Devout Life.” I would view the teachings of Ignatius/de Sales as setting the table, in a manner of speaking, for all that the Carmelites discuss.
St. Teresa and St. John purposely did not spend much time on the types of things St. Ignatius and St. Francis write about … so anxious were they to rush right in to the nature of and characteristics infused prayer. For example, Sts Teresa and John have little if anything to say about the how-to’s of meditation, examination of concience etc … repeatedly mentioning that “others” have already covered that ground better than they could.
But just because they don’t talk about it … or emphasis it the way others do … doesn’t mean it isn’t important. In fact, the opposite is true. In Carmelite teaching, we proceed by stages. For example, for life in the first three mansions a work like “Introduction to the Devout Life” would be immensly helpful … perhaps even more so than what St. Teresa herself has to say. When infused prayer begins (4th mansion and beyond), however, the Carmelite Saints truly excel. It is largely for that reason that Sts Teresa, John and Therese have all been declared Doctors of the Church.
Long story, short … we shouldn’t force our spiritual reading. The most fruitful spiritual reading is the one that speaks most directly to your heart.
Dave
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DBT
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Hi Samson -
I just posted a reply but it didn’t “take”
… so I’ll try again.Well they complement each other. Sts. Teresa and John don’t spend much time on things like the how-to’s of meditation, making a good examen etc … saying “others” describe these things much better than they could.
I’ve often felt works like St. Francis de Sales “Introduction to the Devout Life” would be immensly helpful to souls working their way through the first 3 mansions … much more so than what St. Teresa herself has to say. Where the Carmelites excel … and why they are Doctors of the Church … is for discussion and direction in life in the 4th mansions and beyond. Here we are specifically discussing infused prayer which is really the Carmelites whole focus. We proceed by stages, though, so it is assumed by Sts. Teresa and John that souls traveling toward and through infused prayer should be very well grounded in the types of things St. Ignatius and St. Francis de Sales teach. To do otherwise is to risk spiritual shipwreck in Carmelite teaching.
Long story short … we should focus our spiritual reading on what speaks most directly to our heart.
If that’s St. Ignatius then by all means stick with that until you feel called or drawn otherwise.Hope this helps,
Dave
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InLight247
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Dave, thank you so much for posting the teaching of Carmelite formation. Reading what you posted made my day.
I have a question I don’t quite know how to ask. Brother Lawrence’s Practice of the Presence of God is all the time one of my favorite. I first heard this book from you here on CAF back in 2006. Before reading it, I already had a habit of praying rosary and Chaplet all day long whenever I could. Though most of the prayers were vocal back then, I remember I was also thinking of God throughout the day – driving, walking, in the elevator, in bath room, working, in the meeting, even in movie theater, or watching TV…. Reading Brother Lawrence excited me for I was able to well identify with his teaching.
In the beginning, my recollection was definitely acquired. It was out of my own efforts and needs. After so many years, the habit of “dwelling upon God” continues and matures. My question is, is this constant (sometimes I do poorly) being with the Lord considered acquired, or could it has become infused? All is God’s grace. In this sense, could this recollection become infused? Otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to do it. I hope my question makes sense. Thanks.
Ps. Posted this an hour ago but did not show on the thread, hope this time is OK
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DBT
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Hi Inlight … so good to see you again
Yes, what you describe is acquired contemplation and your experience of it is typical of what Brother Lawrence, Osuna and others describe. At first it requires effort on our part and perhaps a continual recalling of mind and heart back to God. Later, God willing, it becomes second nature … like breathing. Oftentimes we find ourselves interiorly praying … yet not even being conscious of doing so. This is a great grace It is what Brother Lawrence means by the “holy habit.”
Dave
Yes, what you describe is acquired contemplation and your experience of it is typical of what Brother Lawrence, Osuna and others describe. At first it requires effort on our part and perhaps a continual recalling of mind and heart back to God. Later, God willing, it becomes second nature … like breathing. Oftentimes we find ourselves interiorly praying … yet not even being conscious of doing so. This is a great grace
It is what Brother Lawrence means by the “holy habit.”Dave
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InLight247
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Thanks, Dave.
Yes, a habit made by efforts is acquired. Down the road, the constant drawing from God may have some infused aspect in it. Occasionally I wonder, what maybe considered “infused” in my prayer and spirituality. Since everything is God’s grace and truly I can do nothing on my own, even the forming and the grasp of the habit has to be helped by the incoming strength, like you said “God willing”.
Yes, a habit made by efforts is acquired. Down the road, the constant drawing from God may have some infused aspect in it. Occasionally I wonder, what maybe considered “infused” in my prayer and spirituality. Since everything is God’s grace and truly I can do nothing on my own, even the forming and the grasp of the habit has to be helped by the incoming strength, like you said “God willing”.
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DBT
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Hi Inlight -Thanks, Dave.
Yes, a habit made by efforts is acquired. Down the road, the constant drawing from God may have some infused aspect in it. Occasionally I wonder, what maybe considered “infused” in my prayer and spirituality. Since everything is God’s grace and truly I can do nothing on my own, even the forming and the grasp of the habit has to be helped by the incoming strength, like you said “God willing”.
These are very difficult concepts to discuss (because language fails) … but you have a very good handle on things!
When we begin to “Practice the Presense of God” in the manner of Brother Lawrence, we are praying the active recollection St. Teresa teaches in the 3rd mansion of “Interior Castle.” And as it is likely difficult in the beginning, we experience aspects of what St. John of the Cross teaches as the active night of spirit … particularily the purification of our memory (Book 3 of “The Ascent”). So much Carmelite teaching comes into play at this critical point in the spiritual life! And terminology often varies by writer (3 mentioned in this paragraph alone!) so it is sometimes difficult to pick up on the fact they’re talking about the same things but in different ways.
When all of this becomes second nature, as you describe, it is one (of many) characteristics of unitive living … what St. Teresa teaches in the 7th mansion of “Interior Castle” and St. John of the Cross in the latter stanzas of “Spiritual Canticle” and the entirety of “Living Flame.” The transformations that take place to reach this point imply passive purification … whether one is concious of God’s interior activity or not. And whereas earlier in the spiritual life we were aware that our contemplation (whether acquired or infused) was a matter of US looking at God; now it is GOD gazing upon us. This is a very important distinction … one my words can’t do justice. But it is what seperates the unitive from the illuminative way.
In between the 3rd mansion where acquired contemplation is first begun and the 7th where it reaches perfection, there “may” be intermittent moments of infused contemplation given by God to help us along. This was described more fully in the earlier posts. And it is a gift that God may or may not give … depending on the work He is doing in the soul. So some may experience these brief infusions … others not. As you say … all is grace!
Dave
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Samson01
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Thanks Dave. I shouild have figured that much as St. Ignatius fathered the monastic life by laying out his exercise’s. Could you say that infused prayer is just living a prayer. Always mindful of the Lord in things and looking for opportunty’s to do His will? Thanks again, SamsonHi Samson -
I just posted a reply but it didn’t “take”
Well they complement each other. Sts. Teresa and John don’t spend much time on things like the how-to’s of meditation, making a good examen etc … saying “others” describe these things much better than they could.
I’ve often felt works like St. Francis de Sales “Introduction to the Devout Life” would be immensly helpful to souls working their way through the first 3 mansions … much more so than what St. Teresa herself has to say. Where the Carmelites excel … and why they are Doctors of the Church … is for discussion and direction in life in the 4th mansions and beyond. Here we are specifically discussing infused prayer which is really the Carmelites whole focus. We proceed by stages, though, so it is assumed by Sts. Teresa and John that souls traveling toward and through infused prayer should be very well grounded in the types of things St. Ignatius and St. Francis de Sales teach. To do otherwise is to risk spiritual shipwreck in Carmelite teaching.
Long story short … we should focus our spiritual reading on what speaks most directly to our heart.
Hope this helps,
Dave
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DBT
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Guess I would say it’s more like the fruit of infused prayer.
These are hard concepts to explain, so bear with me!
The whole of Carmelite spirituality orients the soul toward union with God. But it isn’t always clear what the Carmelites mean when they speak of union … sometimes it’s explicity stated, other times merely implied. Yet others the meanings are used interchangeably.
Long story short, there’s a union of the faculties and for depictions of the prayer of recollection, quiet and union St. Teresa excels. These are those brief, fleeting moments (just minutes perhaps) in which the soul feels drawn by God to a very deep, interior prayer. As St. Teresa describes, the eyes close and we retreat inward where thoughts and feelings subside as God stills the mind and heart. We don’t think … but simply love in a non-conceptual way. We just bask in the light of God’s presence without a need to think and analyze it. Words can’t describe it … St. Teresa simply calls it “delight.” It is a state of wonder and awe.
Then there’s the union of the substance of the soul which, I believe, addresses your points. The purpose of infused contemplation (described above) is to bring about transformation in the soul so that we become ever more Christ-like. If this transformation is not effected over time, then the contemplation is in vain … a false mysticism. So the union of wills is everything … and true contemplative prayer helps the soul “see” with ever greater precision what His will entails … down to the most minute aspects of our life. And transformation implies change of attitudes, dispositions, habits and so on. Vice receeds and is replaced by virtue. And pain and suffering is involved as the old man becomes the new. This is the purpose of the passive purifications … the nights in St. John’s teaching.
So figuring out which type of union the Saints are talking about at any given point is half the battle in coming to an understanding of what they mean. And, importantly, the union of substance is far more important than the union of the faculties to the life of the soul. All who aspire to holiness need to be transformed by God to “the very roots of their soul.” However, it isn’t necessary to experience infused prayer in the manner of St. Teresa for that to come about.
Dave
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Samson01
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Wow, Dave…that really nails it. Is this union sustainable? Does it come and go? Have you ever heard it called “a moment of clarity”. They use that expression in AA. Often it triggers one to stop drinking, a result of many prayers…I’m sure it could be anything that blocks His Will vs. ours. Thanks, Samson
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DBT
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Ultimately it is sustainable … and it is God who does the sustaining. We do our part … and God does the rest when He sees a willing heart who prizes Him above all things. God protects His special friends!
Union of faculties are brief moments of deep prayer … union of substance is meant to be our permanent, habitual state. But, for most of us, it takes a lifetime of work (God and ours) to get to this point. Union of wills comes and goes as you say in the begininng … then, God willing, becomes permanent. This is why so much of St. John’s teaching revolves around the sense of “presence” and “absence.” The ebb and flow between the two (and the pain it brings) is one of the meanings of the nights. And conversion is the necessary step for final transformation … be it a sudden “Damascus-like” moment or, perhaps more typically, a gradual, evolving thing.
And yes there are certainly moments of clarity … that’s one of the key meanings behind what is meant by the illuminitive way which proceeds the unitive way in which we fully become the “new man” in which St. Paul speaks in his letters. “Light” helps us find our way along the “dark path” that is Faith.
Dave
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Samson01
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Ok, I’m getting it. Just that the order of things is different then I figured. I won’t get too caught up with the legality’s as the Lord works in His time. I’m finding more peace in my own awkward order of things and it feels right to let it rest in that. Thanks for your help, SamsonUltimately it is sustainable … and it is God who does the sustaining. We do our part … and God does the rest when He sees a willing heart who prizes Him above all things. God protects His special friends!
Union of faculties are brief moments of deep prayer … union of substance is meant to be our permanent, habitual state. But, for most of us, it takes a lifetime of work (God and ours) to get to this point. Union of wills comes and goes as you say in the begininng … then, God willing, becomes permanent. This is why so much of St. John’s teaching revolves around the sense of “presence” and “absence.” The ebb and flow between the two (and the pain it brings) is one of the meanings of the nights. And conversion is the necessary step for final transformation … be it a sudden “Damascus-like” moment or, perhaps more typically, a gradual, evolving thing.
And yes there are certainly moments of clarity … that’s one of the key meanings behind what is meant by the illuminitive way which proceeds the unitive way in which we fully become the “new man” in which St. Paul speaks in his letters. “Light” helps us find our way along the “dark path” that is Faith.
Dave
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DBT
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You’re exactly right in how you’re looking at it. Many (me included) sometimes look at the spiritual progression the Carmelites teach in a literal, absolute, linear way … A comes before B and then C and so on. That might or might not be the case for any given individual.
The teachings are meant to be a general map that shows any number of paths to our ultimate destination (union with God). There are short routes … and long, meandering ones. Some walk … and some take airplanes. And so on and so on.
So there will certainly be commonalities for all (which is why Sts Teresa and John are Doctors) … yet, at the same time, wide variance in the specifics. We are all unique as individuals … and no two Saints are exactly alike. God does all these things in His own time and way.
Dave
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Samson01
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Dave, I’m finding or struggling with the idea that any grace given in this type of life, a spiritual life, is like ten talents to be repayed. I’m struggling to repay a gift so outside my own capabilities. Is this common?
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DBT
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Hi Samson -
Not entirely sure I understand the question … but here’s a few comments that hopefully might help and offer encouragement.
First, God does not give these gifts because we’re worthy. In fact, it is often the most unworthy among us (in human not divine thinking) who are showered with the gift of His love … so that His mercy may be manifest to all. Second, we’re expected to do something with these gifts … to repay in order to become more like Him in love. But most of us aren’t called to great things … it’s the little acts of love and kindness all are capable of doing that make all the difference in the world. Think St. Therese’s Little Way as the epitome of this … again another Carmelite Doctor.
It is also normal, the closer we draw to Him, to sense a wide gulf or chasm that seperates soul from God … a pervasive sense of unworthiness ensues. And the closer we come to Him … the farther away He seems … when in fact He’s closer than ever. So we perhaps regress a bit … and don’t act upon the small interior promptings to virtue as before when we basked in His Light. In short, we just don’t feel like we can ever repay Him … so we don’t … though we still love Him with every fiber of our being.
Ultimately we come to realize this “feeling” is a very holy kind of imperfection that must be purged from us so that we can continue to grow. We love for no other reason than to continually prove our love to Him (in little ways) … despite feelings of isolation, unworthiness and seperation. This is what makes saints Saints. And God rejoices in this type of interior abandonment and will lift such souls on high and, in doing so, turns our whole outlook inside out. This is what the passive night of spirit does.
Like St. Therese of Liseaux, we will come to realize we can not “will” ourselves to holiness because we’ll be crushed under the weight … but God can do it in us … if we let Him. So our approach no longer becomes so much a matter of us trying to love Him (though of course we do) … but letting Him love us! And we become partakers in Triune life … God by participation (in love) in Church teaching. So, at this point we can say as did Brother Lawrence: “He treats me like a king and serves me at His own table.”
Rambling reply … hopefully something was on target!
Dave
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Samson01
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On target…brought tears to my eyes…wonderful.Hi Samson -
Not entirely sure I understand the question … but here’s a few comments that hopefully might help and offer encouragement.
First, God does not give these gifts because we’re worthy. In fact, it is often the most unworthy among us (in human not divine thinking) who are showered with the gift of His love … so that His mercy may be manifest to all. Second, we’re expected to do something with these gifts … to repay in order to become more like Him in love. But most of us aren’t called to great things … it’s the little acts of love and kindness all are capable of doing that make all the difference in the world. Think St. Therese’s Little Way as the epitome of this … again another Carmelite Doctor.
It is also normal, the closer we draw to Him, to sense a wide gulf or chasm that seperates soul from God … a pervasive sense of unworthiness ensues. And the closer we come to Him … the farther away He seems … when in fact He’s closer than ever. So we perhaps regress a bit … and don’t act upon the small interior promptings to virtue as before when we basked in His Light. In short, we just don’t feel like we can ever repay Him … so we don’t … though we still love Him with every fiber of our being.
Ultimately we come to realize this “feeling” is a very holy kind of imperfection that must be purged from us so that we can continue to grow. We love for no other reason than to continually prove our love to Him (in little ways) … despite feelings of isolation, unworthiness and seperation. This is what makes saints Saints. And God rejoices in this type of interior abandonment and will lift such souls on high and, in doing so, turns our whole outlook inside out. This is what the passive night of spirit does.
Like St. Therese of Liseaux, we will come to realize we can not “will” ourselves to holiness because we’lll be crushed under the weight … but God can and will do it in us … if we let Him. So our approach no longer becomes so much a matter of us trying to love Him (though of course we do) … but letting Him love us! And we become partakers in Triune life … God by participation (in love) in Church teaching. So, at this point we can say as did Brother Lawrence: “He treats me like a king and serves me at His own table.”
Rambling reply … hopefully something was on target!
Dave
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InLight247
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Dave, thank you so much for explaining the difference of union of substance (wills) and union of faculties(momentary suspension). It helps a lot, really. Your explanation answers questions in my mind. Thank you so much!
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Bix
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Hi Dave~
I’ve enjoyed reading your postings as well as those posted by others on this thread.
The last few days have a been a bit crazy, but hope you will check this thread tomorrow or the next day when I post a few questions.
I guess I’m a little confused as I thought talking to God throughout the day while going about my routine was… The norm.
I never really thought of it as something to strive for - that probably makes no sense which is one reason I will wait to compose my thoughts and questions a little better. God bless you,
~Bix
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DBT
Guest
Hi Bix -Hi Dave~
I’ve enjoyed reading your postings as well as those posted by others on this thread.
The last few days have a been a bit crazy, but hope you will check this thread tomorrow or the next day when I post a few questions.
I guess I’m a little confused as I thought talking to God throughout the day while going about my routine was… The norm.
God bless you,
~Bix
Sure I’ll check in.
You seem to be describing the acquired contemplation Inlight talked about … recollection in the earlier posts I made. Same thing … different terms … although it is something distinct from the infused contemplation (supernatural prayer) that has also been discussed.
Don’t be confused if your experience of it is different than what has been described. Some people “take” to acquired contemplation/recollection easier than others as is perhaps the case for you.
And how one handles the matter of distraction seems to be the key as to how easy/natural it is or isn’t.
On the one hand, we have writers like St. Teresa who was greatly troubled by the “wild horses” of her mind, the author of The Cloud of Unknowing who saw them as the bane of one’s existence and Osuna/St. John of the Cross who wrote long treatises on “disencumbering the mind” and “quieting the understanding.” Writers like these saw distraction as a sign of their (unwanted) seperation from God. It was an important aspect of their experience of night.
On the other hand, we have someone like Brother Lawrence who took more of a “don’t worry be happy” approach to such matters.
So different writers speak to different aspects … and some can be more helpful than others, depending on where one is at and how one experiences it all.
God bless you too,
Dave
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