"Supersubstantial Bread"?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jerry-Jet
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jerry-Jet

Guest
In The Lord’s prayer in Luke Jerome in the Latin Vulgate translates “Daily Bread” from the Greek but in Matthew he translates “Supersubstantial Bread” from the Greek.

If Matthew originaly penned his gospel in Hebrew or Aramaic instead of Greek?–

What Aramaic words or Hebrew words would have conveyed “Supersubstantial”?

In other words if Jesus were speaking in Aramaic or Hebrew what Aramaic or Hebrew words could He have used to convey “Supersubstantial”?
 
In The Lord’s prayer in Luke Jerome in the Latin Vulgate translates “Daily Bread” from the Greek but in Matthew he translates “Supersubstantial Bread” from the Greek.

If Matthew originaly penned his gospel in Hebrew or Aramaic instead of Greek?–

What Aramaic words or Hebrew words would have conveyed “Supersubstantial”?

In other words if Jesus were speaking in Aramaic or Hebrew what Aramaic or Hebrew words could He have used to convey “Supersubstantial”?
Jerry, this article doesn’t directly address your question regarding a Hebrew or Aramaic word, but it’s a good one anyway on “Supersubstantial Bread”. 🙂

adoremus.org/0707SupersubstantialBread.html
 
Jerry, this article doesn’t directly address your question regarding a Hebrew or Aramaic word, but it’s a good one anyway on “Supersubstantial Bread”. 🙂

adoremus.org/0707SupersubstantialBread.html
There is a book out called Jesus and His Jewish roots by Brian Peitre excellent…but if you follow this URL youtube.com/watch?v=NYDSPcEoC74 and go to the 29 minute part…he does a wonderful explanation on the Our Father with relationship to Eucharist and supersubstantial bread. Really makes you wonder why we say today "give us this day our “daily” bread

hopes this helps
 
In The Lord’s prayer in Luke Jerome in the Latin Vulgate translates “Daily Bread” from the Greek but in Matthew he translates “Supersubstantial Bread” from the Greek.

If Matthew originaly penned his gospel in Hebrew or Aramaic instead of Greek?–

What Aramaic words or Hebrew words would have conveyed “Supersubstantial”?

In other words if Jesus were speaking in Aramaic or Hebrew what Aramaic or Hebrew words could He have used to convey “Supersubstantial”?
There is a book out called Jesus and His Jewish roots by Brian Peitre excellent…but if you follow this URL youtube.com/watch?v=NYDSPcEoC74 and go to the 29 minute part…he does a wonderful explanation on the Our Father with relationship to Eucharist and supersubstantial bread. Really makes you wonder why we say today "give us this day our “daily” bread
The word comes from the Greek( few people believe Mt wrote in Heb or Aramaic) it is epi ousia The Translation becomes difficult because it is only used here in the bible

hopes this helps

hopes this helps
 
There is a book out called Jesus and His Jewish roots by Brian Peitre excellent…but if you follow this URL youtube.com/watch?v=NYDSPcEoC74 and go to the 29 minute part…he does a wonderful explanation on the Our Father with relationship to Eucharist and supersubstantial bread. Really makes you wonder why we say today "give us this day our “daily” bread
The word comes from the Greek( few people believe Mt wrote in Heb or Aramaic) it is epi ousia The Translation becomes difficult because it is only used here in the bible

hopes this helps
Just to make it easier to find, the book is called Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist, and the author’s last name is spelled Pitre. Very well done, I highly recommend it.

Sally
 
There is a book out called Jesus and His Jewish roots by Brian Peitre excellent…but if you follow this URL youtube.com/watch?v=NYDSPcEoC74 and go to the 29 minute part…he does a wonderful explanation on the Our Father with relationship to Eucharist and supersubstantial bread. Really makes you wonder why we say today "give us this day our “daily” bread

hopes this helps
The book is titled “Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist” It is excellent, a must read for every Catholic.

bks5.books.google.com/books?id=t4EaqOT4nKUC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE70KcOnD4echdobVnOmRRDUy0Y1r12DBacOS_ruyB1jK0nGmuT9MHFHnJpV_jOxCFhwLdPSBhpVTki-s9bREKrESmDNsrlFypsmE1DAJ4d98CtfY_En3hQPcveNr4QZuye0qG5Us

-Tim-
 
Just to make it easier to find, the book is called Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist, and the author’s last name is spelled Pitre. Very well done, I highly recommend it.

Sally
Thank you so much for the quick correction,it is an excellent book…and the youtube video does a great job as well
Again, thank you
 
In The Lord’s prayer in Luke Jerome in the Latin Vulgate translates “Daily Bread” from the Greek but in Matthew he translates “Supersubstantial Bread” from the Greek.

If Matthew originaly penned his gospel in Hebrew or Aramaic instead of Greek?–

What Aramaic words or Hebrew words would have conveyed “Supersubstantial”?

In other words if Jesus were speaking in Aramaic or Hebrew what Aramaic or Hebrew words could He have used to convey “Supersubstantial”?
I think the reason St. Jerome translated this hapax differently in Matthew(versus Luke) was because he had the version of Matthew that was written in a Hebrew dialect, possibly Aramaic. He even translated a portion of it in a letter to Pope Damasus. St. Jerome was known to be a believer in the Hebrew Truth and though he did not believe Hebrew Matthew to be canonical, he did believe it to be genuine. St Matthew was obviously targeting Jews in his Gospel because unlike Mark who explains words like rabbi to the reader, Matthew’s audience is expected to already know the meaning. There was no such Hebrew reference for Luke’s Greek gospel when translating the word so it was rendered only as daily bread.
 
I think the reason St. Jerome translated this hapax differently in Matthew(versus Luke) was because he had the version of Matthew that was written in a Hebrew dialect, possibly Aramaic. He even translated a portion of it in a letter to Pope Damasus. St. Jerome was known to be a believer in the Hebrew Truth and though he did not believe Hebrew Matthew to be canonical, he did believe it to be genuine. St Matthew was obviously targeting Jews in his Gospel because unlike Mark who explains words like rabbi to the reader, Matthew’s audience is expected to already know the meaning. There was no such Hebrew reference for Luke’s Greek gospel when translating the word so it was rendered only as daily bread.
I am open-minded to the possibility of Matthew writing in Hebrew and the original manuscripts are missing/gone. The fact is however even in MT…there are a few phases or word that MT has to explain to his audience. Big example would be at the crucifixion when Jesus exclaims “Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani” The author goes on the explain what was said…I guess the author knew it was too important to just translate it to Greek, being it quotes the psalms.
My understanding s Mattew was writing to the Jewish people…but from the Diaspora and these people had a better handle on the Greek language.
Like I said I am really open to better ideas.
Thank you
Tony
.
 
I am open-minded to the possibility of Matthew writing in Hebrew and the original manuscripts are missing/gone. The fact is however even in MT…there are a few phases or word that MT has to explain to his audience. Big example would be at the crucifixion when Jesus exclaims “Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani” The author goes on the explain what was said…I guess the author knew it was too important to just translate it to Greek, being it quotes the psalms.
My understanding s Mattew was writing to the Jewish people…but from the Diaspora and these people had a better handle on the Greek language.
Like I said I am really open to better ideas.
Thank you
Tony
.
Yes, but that could also be explained because of it being Aramaic and not Hebrew. So perhaps I should say instead that Matthew quoted to the old testament more than any other evangelist, so as to convince and impress the Jews on what was accomplished.

I don’t believe the assertion that the Jews had a better handle on Greek than their own language. Jesus most likely did not even know Greek according to Pope Benedict. There were only two Jews with Greek names among the apostles. And when the Greeks came to visit, they never got to speak with Jesus but instead phillip and andrew because they likely acted as interpreters.
 
Yes, but that could also be explained because of it being Aramaic and not Hebrew. So perhaps I should say instead that Matthew quoted to the old testament more than any other evangelist, so as to convince and impress the Jews on what was accomplished.

I don’t believe the assertion that the Jews had a better handle on Greek than their own language. Jesus most likely did not even know Greek according to Pope Benedict. There were only two Jews with Greek names among the apostles. And when the Greeks came to visit, they never got to speak with Jesus but instead phillip and andrew because they likely acted as interpreters.
Very interesting, but the point that Jesus did not know Greek is really new to me. When did the Pope make this announcement as a point of fact? I was not including all Jews,just the audience MT was writing. One would think after generation in captivity the language might have change…just as today, the official language of the church is Latin…but rarely spoken by most of the world except for certain parts of the Holy Mass.
Like I said I find it very interesting.
 
Very interesting, but the point that Jesus did not know Greek is really new to me. When did the Pope make this announcement as a point of fact? I was not including all Jews,just the audience MT was writing. One would think after generation in captivity the language might have change…just as today, the official language of the church is Latin…but rarely spoken by most of the world except for certain parts of the Holy Mass.
Like I said I find it very interesting.
The pope did not offer it as fact, but as his personal opinion in one of the books i read of his on the apostles. Personally, I agree with him.

Latin was widely spoken in the empire. They would have never written the INRI in Latin if nobody could read it. The ancient buildings would not have Latin written on them if nobody could read them.
 
Would Calvin and Zwingli have thought different concerning the eucharist if they would have accepted the translation “Supersubstantial bread”?

How can you not believe in substances if “supersubstantial” is in the bible?

I know in English that sometimes a word can have more than two different meanings. Is it possible for the Holy Spirit to inspire a biblical author to use a word that has more than one meaning?

If it is then could it actually be possible that two different gospel writers would use two different meanings of the same word?

Would Jesus ever use a word in speech that would have more than one meaning?

I believe in “daily bread” and “supersubstantial bread”. As a convert “supersubstantial bread” helps me even MORE to believe in transubstantiation.

I know when Jerome translated the bible that the term transubstantiation was not used but didn’t the Greek philosophers already use the term “substances”?

I’ve forgotten–is it the Greek word that is only used in the Our Father and nowhere else?

If it is–in a case like that–should one when translating try to convey the sense of the Greek word–OR convey a Hebrew or Aramic word that Jesus might have used?
 
Peace!

In Matt. 6:11 of the Peshitta text, the Lord Jesus says the following in Aramaic, with my transliteration and translation in English:

ܗܒ Haw (Give)

ܠܢ lan (us)

ܠܚܡܐ lahma (the bread)

ܕܤܘܢܩܢܢ dsunqanan (of our need/necessity)

ܝܘܡܢܐ yomana (this day)

God bless,

Rony
 
Peace!

In Matt. 6:11 of the Peshitta text, the Lord Jesus says the following in Aramaic, with my transliteration and translation in English:

ܗܒ Haw (Give)

ܠܢ lan (us)

ܠܚܡܐ lahma (the bread)
As always that is the question we ask what was the language Matthew wrote and whatever word was used(some words have different meanings) what was his intent. Your telling me of this Peshitta text is only an example of someone else’s translation from a source not confirmed as original.
I have heard the word needy used frequently and I guess it is as good as any we read in the gospel today.
Thank you
Tony

ܕܤܘܢܩܢܢ dsunqanan (of our need/necessity)

ܝܘܡܢܐ yomana (this day)

God bless,

Rony
 
The pope did not offer it as fact, but as his personal opinion in one of the books i read of his on the apostles. Personally, I agree with him.

Latin was widely spoken in the empire. They would have never written the INRI in Latin if nobody could read it. The ancient buildings would not have Latin written on them if nobody could read them.
Your thoughts are fascinating , but not entirely total in content. Latin was the language of the Romans, the street language was Aramaic(which is most likely what Jesus spoke most often) Hebrew was Temple language(much like Latin is for Catholics today) and Greek was the language of commerce.Greek was extremely important since so many people from various places did trade. Any merchant wanting to make a living would most certainly know at least enough Greek to conduct business.
Jesus being a carpenter would most probably know enough of the above languages to get by in his world.
Speaking more than one language during the time of Jesus was quite common. It is like going to certain parts of Miami and not learning many words in Spanish…it just happens in one’s every day life.
Be Blessed
Tony
 
Would Calvin and Zwingli have thought different concerning the eucharist if they would have accepted the translation “Supersubstantial bread”?

How can you not believe in substances if “supersubstantial” is in the bible?

I know in English that sometimes a word can have more than two different meanings. Is it possible for the Holy Spirit to inspire a biblical author to use a word that has more than one meaning?

If it is then could it actually be possible that two different gospel writers would use two different meanings of the same word?

Would Jesus ever use a word in speech that would have more than one meaning?

I believe in “daily bread” and “supersubstantial bread”. As a convert “supersubstantial bread” helps me even MORE to believe in transubstantiation.

I know when Jerome translated the bible that the term transubstantiation was not used but didn’t the Greek philosophers already use the term “substances”?

I’ve forgotten–is it the Greek word that is only used in the Our Father and nowhere else?

If it is–in a case like that–should one when translating try to convey the sense of the Greek word–OR convey a Hebrew or Aramic word that Jesus might have used?
Just one time is the word used in the bible and the word is EPI OUSIA . It is Greek and when Jerome Translated it He uses Super Substantial . The whole reference could well be an eternal manna as opposed to manna Moses had in the Exodus experience. The bread of life discourse is so related to the manna it is hard to imagine Jesus was not trying to relate to the Jewish experience as THIS is what the Jews were looking for in a Savior.
 
Very interesting, but the point that Jesus did not know Greek is really new to me. When did the Pope make this announcement as a point of fact? I was not including all Jews,just the audience MT was writing. One would think after generation in captivity the language might have change…just as today, the official language of the church is Latin…but rarely spoken by most of the world except for certain parts of the Holy Mass.
Like I said I find it very interesting.
Given to the possibility that Jesus did not speak Greek, this really has nothing to do with Matthew’s writing of the Gospel(If in fact he personally did write it). Matthew wrote in Greek for his Diaspora Jewish audience.
 
Cornelius a Lapide has an excellent explanation about it

You ask what is supersubstantial bread? I reply the Greek is ε̉πιούσιον, which is found only here and in S. Luke xi. 3. 1. Angelus Caninius (lib. de Nom. Heb. N. Test.) translates to-morrow’s bread, for ε̉πιουσια ημερα is often put for the following day. He would paraphrase the petition thus, “As on the day of preparation, or Friday, the Hebrews in the wilderness collected manna for the Sabbath, on which day they were to rest, so do Thou, 0 Lord, give us this day bread for to-morrow, for we are not solicitous for anything beyond, but after to-morrow we await, and as it were prepare ourselves for the Lord’s Resurrection, and the eternal jubilee. Therefore, we collect our baggage, and only ask for bread for to-morrow. It is in favour of this that S. Jerome writes that the Hebrew Gospel of the Nazarenes reads מחר machar, i.e. “for tomorrow.” Whence S. Athanasius (Tract. de Incarn. Verb.) thinks that we here ask for the Holy Spirit, who is the Divine Bread, whom we hope to feed upon and enjoy in Heaven, and whose first-fruits we receive and taste in the Eucharist.
  1. S. Jerome explains
    ε̉πιούσιον by περιούσιον, that is principal, glorious, excellent. Symmachus translates elect, or that which is above all substances, and is superior to all creatures. So also Cassian (Collat. 9. 20), Cyril (Cat. Mystag. 5), and S. Ambrose (lib. 5, de Sacrament. c. 4), who by this bread understands the Eucharist which in Zech. ix. is called “the corn of the elect.” (Vulg.)
  2. Literally,
    ε̉πιούσιος, means that which pertains to substance, say substantial, essential, that which is for the preservation of man’s life and substance, as often as is necessary. So S. Chrysostom, Theophylact, and S. Basil, as well as many others, who with Suidas interpret ε̉πιούσιον, as ε̉πὶ τὴν ημω̃ν ου̉σίαν καὶ τροφὴν ε̉παρκου̃ται, or that which is congruous to, and suffices for, our substance and nutrition, that which subserves, not pleasure but necessity, that which is not too delicate or abundant but frugal and moderate, i.e. daily. Hence the Syriac has the bread of our need; Arabic, bread sufficient. So, also the Egyptian, Ethiopic, and Persian versions. So also the Fathers who lived before S. Jerome’s version, such as SS. Cyprian, Ambrose, Augustine, translate daily bread. And the Church in the Breviary and Missal uses the same ancient translation, and teaches the faithful to pray, Give us this day our daily bread.
    S. Jerome, who, at the bidding of Pope Damasus, corrected the Latin version of the New Testament, in accordance with the Greek, in this place substituted supersubstantial for daily, to bring the passage into accord with the Greek.
This supersubstantial, or daily bread, is a parallel expression to the Hebrew דבר יום davar yom, “the thing, or matter of a day.” For Christ forbids us to be anxious about the morrow, in which it is uncertain whether or not we shall be alive. “He would,” says S. Chrysostom, “that we should be always girded, and provided, as it were, with wings of faith, by which we may fly heavenward, and give no greater indulgence to nature than necessary use demands.” Again, S. Jerome’s reason for translating ε̉πιούσιον literally, by supersubstantial, was to indicate that in this petition we ask above all for heavenly bread, such as we receive in the Eucharist.
  1. You ask what is this special supersubstantial, or daily bread. Calvin (lib. 3, Instit. c. 20, 44), and Philip Melancthon, in his Commonplaces, tit. de Invocat., understand it of corporeal food only. Some Catholics understand it to mean only spiritual food. Certainly SS. Jerome, Cyril, Ambrose, Cassian, speak expressly of this alone, in the passages about to be cited. But I say that this bread is both material, for the sustenance of the body, and spiritual and heavenly bread, suitable for the nourishment of the soul, such as the word of God and the Eucharist. We have need of both, and therefore we ought to ask for both, and for the latter so much more earnestly than the former, as the soul is superior to the body. And this is denoted by the word supersubstantial, which S. Jerome explains to mean superexcellent, surpassing all created substances, because, as Cassian says, “the sublimity of its magnificence and its sanctity is superior to that of the whole creation.” And for this reason, in the Greek, the definite article is added, doubled in truth, τὸν άρτον τὸν ε̉πιούσιον, the bread the supersubstantial. As though it were said, “Give us bread not common, but celestial and divine.” Christ alludes to the manna given to the Hebrews, which was a type of the Eucharist. For of manna, it is said in Ps. lxxviii. 24, “He gave them bread from heaven.” “Man did eat angels’ food.” Thus, therefore, manna was food ε̉πιούσιος, i.e., heavenly and angelic; but much more is the Eucharist. Whence in Wisd. xix. 20, both are called in Greek Ambrosia, which is said by the poets to be the food of the gods. S.Ambrose calls the Eucharist this supersubstantial bread. “If,” he says, “this be daily bread, why do you receive it only once a year? So live that you may be fit to receive it daily.” Thus the first Christians were accustomed to communicate daily, as is plain from Acts ii. 46. And S. Cyprian (de Orat. Domin.) says, “We ask that this bread may be daily given us, lest we, who are in Christ and daily receive the food of the Eucharist, by the intervention of some grave fault, by abstaining and not communicating, should be kept back from the heavenly Bread, and separated from the Body of Christ, when He Himself has admonished us saying, ‘I am the Bread of life, Who came down from Heaven. If any man shall eat of My Bread he shall live for ever.’” (S. John vi.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top