Support the Death Penalty?

[rpp]

One might consider this question:
Think of a prisoner facing whole life detention in humane and dignified conditions, and another facing death.
Which one is liable to take desperate measures to escape?

That is an interesting question. On the face, one would think the one facing death may have a stronger motivation. Yet a lifetime of incarceration is not pleasant and affords a greater opportunity (time) for escape.

I think you confused yourself in the above paragraph. I believe you meant ‘can’ where you wrote ‘cannot’.

:doh2:

Well, I actually did write “can”. I just mispelled it.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

One might consider this question:
Think of a prisoner facing whole life detention in humane and dignified conditions, and another facing death.
Which one is liable to take desperate measures to escape?
. . …

C. S. Lewis posed a similar question - Which is more likely to repent?

 

[Ray_Scheel]

One might consider this question:
Think of a prisoner facing whole life detention in humane and dignified conditions, and another facing death.
Which one is liable to take desperate measures to escape?

Well, here is something from today’s news, with a little excursion by two lifers that started from the facility my office is on. This was an outside work crew and not an escape from inside as with the Texas 7 incident, but is a good example of what people doing life will do even after working up to some fairly good privileges for good behavior while inside…

The only escape attempts from Death Row here in the last 10 years ended with the only one who got over the fence apparently catching a bullet while scrambling over and then being too weak to get out after falling into a creek soon after. The common opinion is that he was already at the bottom of the creek before they got the dogs on his trail.

 

[redbird444]

I notice you, Ray, and redbird444 combined cannot provide a shread, not a shread, of evidience against the teaching. Where are your crime statistics? How many guards were killed last year? Last decade?

%between%

Whoa, there buddy. Why are you lashing out at me? I said I have worked in prison as a correctional officer AND I still work in prison.

I also stated I am not going to add statistics or church teachings to this discussion. The reason I did not is because it is very apparent there are a good number of “experts” on church teachings on this forum and I am NOT one, nor have I ever pretended to be one.

I would appreciate it if you would have enough respect for me by reading my post before lumping me in with anyone else you are arguing with because this (criminal justice) happens to be the field I work in and you HAVE NO IDEA what my personal stance is on the death penalty.

I think you better check my post. I did not disagree or concur with ANYONE else’s post on this topic.

I repeat: I did NOT state whether I was for or against the Death Penalty.

I also have sociology, psychology and criminal justice background. So READ THIS PART VERY CLEARLY…
I was not trying to make ANY point for or against church teaching.

And to answer your question how many correctional officers were killed last year, is NOT a reason why I would be for or against the Death Penalty.

The Death Penalty in this state *Oklahoma depends on the nature of the offense. Also, isn’t it obvious that as catholics, the preponderance of replies would be AGAINST the death penalty because that is what our church teaches?

It is said in our field, correctional officers walk the toughest beat of them all. And we don’t carry guns or nightsticks. Just a radio. My first job was at a high medium/low max prison and let me tell you something. My experience in prison is far from anything you watch on TV.

Now, I will step aside and let you folks continue your "discussion.

 

[Ender]

Popes do not write the catechism the Magisterium does.

The catechism was not written by the magisterium, it was written by a commission formed for that specific project. The chairman of that commission was Cardinal Ratzinger so I’m pretty comfortable claiming that he knows very well what is in it.

Outside of yourself, I have seen no one second your point of view.

Outside of BXVI, the USCCB, Cardinal Dulles and others that is.

The earlier posting concerning BXVI was a long way from affirming such a stand, it dealt with people who do not fully agree with the Church’s teaching.

Not at all. This is what he said: “There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty”. I’m guessing that our pope isn’t going to say there may be a “legitimate diversity of opinion” about anything that a Catholic is expected to believe.

Ender

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Originally Posted by Texas Roofer
Popes do not write the catechism the Magisterium does.

The catechism was not written by the magisterium, it was written by a commission formed for that specific project. The chairman of that commission was Cardinal Ratzinger so I’m pretty comfortable claiming that he knows very well what is in it.

Texas Roofer:

Outside of yourself, I have seen no one second your point of view.

Outside of BXVI, the USCCB, Cardinal Dulles and others that is.

Texas Roofer:

The earlier posting concerning BXVI was a long way from affirming such a stand, it dealt with people who do not fully agree with the Church’s teaching.

Ender:

Not at all. This is what he said: “There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty”. I’m guessing that our pope isn’t going to say there may be a “legitimate diversity of opinion” about anything that a Catholic is expected to believe.

Ender

Ender as this is the second discussion on whether the Pope and Bishop’s quotes are being taken completely out of context See post 235 and post 251 I must ask you to review this with the moderators attached is the quotes with links

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.* For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment *or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia. -Instruction: “Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion: General Principles”; Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect; Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith
holyhillcross.com/WORTHINESS%20TO%20RECEIVE%20COMMUNION.htm

Title Page
A Culture of Life and the Penalty of Death A Statement of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops Calling for an End to the use of the Death Penalty-
First paragraph on Page 2
The document A Culture of Life and the Penalty of Death was developed by the Committee on Domestic Policy f the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB). It was approved by the full body of bishops at its November 2005 General Meeting and has been authorized for publication by the undersigned. Msgr. William P. Fay General Secretary, USCCB

usccb.org/sdwp/national/penaltyofdeath.pdf

 

[Texas_Roofer]

What is just and humane to an individual having an academic discussion online may be different from what is just and humane to a family member of someone who was murdered in a way as to warrant a death sentence being adjudicated.

Rehabilitated? Come on now. I work in the prison system. And I havve worked in all security levels of prison from halfway house to maximum security.

**Rehabilitation is society’s idyllic hope which has little hope of ever being realized **in any more of a fraction of the inmate populace. Not saying it is impossible. Just saying the majority of the inmate population is not in prison for singing too loud in church.

A life sentence may keep the offender away from society, but it also allows the offender to enjoy life, **which is not what the offender allowed the victim. **
I won’t add to the academic (criminal justice statistics) or theological discussions (church teachings) here, but I can tell you one thing for sure…

The legislators who decide matters are just as far removed from the reality of prison life and the prison culture, and from the reality of the individual circumstances of the crimes as the average citizen.

Whoa, there buddy. Why are you lashing out at me? I said I have worked in prison as a correctional officer AND I still work in prison.

I also stated I am not going to add statistics or church teachings to this discussion. The reason I did not is because it is very apparent there are a good number of “experts” on church teachings on this forum and I am NOT one, nor have I ever pretended to be one.

I would appreciate it if you would have enough respect for me by reading my post before lumping me in with anyone else you are arguing with because this (criminal justice) happens to be the field I work in and you HAVE NO IDEA what my personal stance is on the death penalty.

I think you better check my post. I did not disagree or concur with ANYONE else’s post on this topic.

I repeat: I did NOT state whether I was for or against the Death Penalty.

I also have sociology, psychology and criminal justice background. So READ THIS PART VERY CLEARLY…
I was not trying to make ANY point for or against church teaching.

And to answer your question how many correctional officers were killed last year, is NOT a reason why I would be for or against the Death Penalty.

The Death Penalty in this state *Oklahoma depends on the nature of the offense. Also, isn’t it obvious that as catholics, the preponderance of replies would be AGAINST the death penalty because that is what our church teaches?

It is said in our field, correctional officers walk the toughest beat of them all. And we don’t carry guns or nightsticks. Just a radio. My first job was at a high medium/low max prison and let me tell you something. My experience in prison is far from anything you watch on TV.

Now, I will step aside and let you folks continue your "discussion.

Feel free to appeal however I do not believe the comments listed in bold comply with Catholic Church teaching NOR your second post. The death penalty is not to be administered for vengeance, which is the implied idea in the first post. Second the Church teaches that repenting of the sin is the hope, which is not exactly equal to rehabilitation.

I am not attempting to lash out at you. There appears a general reoccurring concept in this thread of killing prisoners is a good thing for prison guards and other prisoners. This of course is based on several strange things as 1) if you were falsely convicted and given the death penalty would you keep your current attitude, or want to be allowed to live until you could prove your innocents 2) The guard does not have to work there!, he could simply work some where else 3) When you kill prisoners the prison is only safer for those not killed! So if you kill 10% of the prisoner, BTW you would need to kill about 50% in California just to return the prison to designed capacity. The death rate in prison is increased not decreased. So you actually increased killing to reduce killing?

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Originally Posted by Voco proTatiano
One might consider this question:
Think of a prisoner facing whole life detention in humane and dignified conditions, and another facing death.
Which one is liable to take desperate measures to escape?

I think the key here is humane and dignified. There seems to be a remarkable lack of these two features in many institutions. Even in some istitutions where legally the detainee is still legally presumed innocent. A US encampment on Cuba comes to mind.
Obviously, humane and dignified, implies respect and useful employment.
The conditions need to be pleasant enough that the detainee can appreceate a worsening of conditions which might arrise from misbehaviour.
Though the detainee might be no longer classified as a ‘freeman’, and might have a status comparable to a slave, remember, in civilized nations, we treat our beasts of burden with humanity. Remember, the word ‘veterinary’ is derived from the Latin for ‘beast of burden’.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Well, here is something from today’s news, with a little excursion by two lifers that started from the facility my office is on. This was an outside work crew and not an escape from inside as with the Texas 7 incident, but is a good example of what people doing life will do even after working up to some fairly good privileges for good behavior while inside…

The only escape attempts from Death Row here in the last 10 years ended with the only one who got over the fence apparently catching a bullet while scrambling over and then being too weak to get out after falling into a creek soon after. The common opinion is that he was already at the bottom of the creek before they got the dogs on his trail.

I tend to agree with you in regard to Texas, that JP II was incorrect in his judgement of the capability of the penal system there. It is obviously utterly incompetant.
Then.,what were the lifers in for? were they just a couple of blacks who had bad-mouthed a policeman?
I never suggested that dangerous persons should be utilized in conditions where they might easily abscond.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Well, here is something from today’s news, with a little excursion by two lifers that started from the facility my office is on. This was an outside work crew and not an escape from inside as with the Texas 7 incident, but is a good example of what people doing life will do even after working up to some fairly good privileges for good behavior while inside…

The only escape attempts from Death Row here in the last 10 years ended with the only one who got over the fence apparently catching a bullet while scrambling over and then being too weak to get out after falling into a creek soon after. The common opinion is that he was already at the bottom of the creek before they got the dogs on his trail.

One in ten years, wow the prison is safer than I thought. Good Job Ray!

 

[Ray_Scheel]

I tend to agree with you in regard to Texas, that JP II was incorrect in his judgement of the capability of the penal system there. It is obviously utterly incompetant.
Then.,what were the lifers in for? were they just a couple of blacks who had bad-mouthed a policeman?
I never suggested that dangerous persons should be utilized in conditions where they might easily abscond.

A disproportionate number of the escapees that manage get off TDCJ property are white, and these were both true hard cases. ksam1017.com has what might be the most accurate write-up, from there:
Martin was serving 50 years for two counts of attempted capital murder out of Collin County. Martin was sent to prison in 1997 after he fired at several Collin County deputies and state troopers during a standoff that followed a high-speed chase. Based on his good disciplinary record in prison, Martin was classified as a minimum-security inmate and assigned to do field work outside the prison under the supervision of officers.
“In this case, obviously, something went wrong,” Lyons said.
Falk, 40, has been serving a life prison sentence since July 1986 after being convicted of murder out of Matagorda County.

Additional details on Falk in an updated story in the Houston Chronicle; the murder he participated in (in teh county I grew up in) involved slashing the throat of an elderly lawyer, stuffing him in his trunk, and pushing it into the river (with him still not yet dead in the trunk) after robbing him.

There were questions here starting almost as soon as the identity of the escapees was known as to why these to were allowed on an outside work detail that was not in a remote location, but to actually get to prison here (rather than staying in the county lockups or going to a state jail), someone has to have committed a rather serious crime, so if allowing prisoners to work is part of humane conditions of long term storage, they are going to get access to means to try to escape.

For that matter, the previously mentioned Death Row attempt was staged using materials they had scrounged as part of a Death Row work program that didn’t seem like a likely source of things to use as they did, but where there is a will, there is a way. We did completely and permanently cancel Death Row work programs at that point, and moved to 24 hour cell restriction for them, but of course that isn’t considered a humane way to store a prisoner if we look at the conditions RPP stated several posts back (which I agree is where the bar should be for long term storage).

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Hi Ray,
I sha’n’t bother to quote your mail, but clearly, though the lifers did seem to disserve their status, the people obviously do not disserve the utter incompetence of the managers of their penal system, unless of course they were stupid enough to vote for penny pinching politicians, who don’t understand that if you pay peanuts, you employ monkeys.

It is utter foolishness to try to run what should be ‘state institutions’ at a profit, for that is a recipe for cutting corners.
You would not expect to have private companies running your armed forces would you?

Clearly the best institution for using the services of Lifers would be the military, and they could be used on tasks where they are expendable, though humanitarianly useful, such as mine clearance.

Those who were not dangerous killers could after surviving an appropriate stint on that line, could perform other humanitarian tasks, such as overseas developments, like water provision, and school building,

A simple way to prevent escapism is to implant heart pacemakers, modified to cause severe arythmia if they venture out of range of the control centre. In the event of a lifer meriting release, the implant should be reversible, but only by an authorised operative.

As I said, other than absolute necessary means to prevent absconding, management of these lifers should be humane and dignified.

It is my firm belief that most persons would accept the use of lifers on lethally hazzardous humanitarian tasks as a replacement for DP.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

A bit more is coming out about what happened. One of the other guards at the perimeter of the group, possibly the supervisor, broke procedure and allowed the inmates to approach him on a ruse, where he was drug from his horse and overpowered. There is the question as to why the city was leaving keys in vehicles separated from the prison fields only by a low fence, why it was only a low fence on the prison side while they had the rest in 10 security fencing, and some questions as to whether there was actual outside help as a bag of clothing had been found in the unit housing area that morning, and one of the escapees had recently (mid July) been caught in a romantic involvement with a now former employee. The guard who was killed was trying to block the fleeing inmates; her actions were perhaps even above the call of duty, but also played a significant role in slowing them down which made it easier for the chase to firm up as they attempted to flee.

I totally agree about the poor pay being a contributing factor. But when the state is also having to cut enrollment in the assisted health insurance program for children and is struggling to fund public education, there are not the resources to pay guards a significant amount. From that it should be simple to see that futuristic things like the fancy pacemakers are unfeasible for budgetary reasons, that’s more a future-tech situation, especially when building in the fail-safes for situations like when we had to use private buses to get enough transportation to empty prison units ahead of (or during/after) hurricane Rita.

As far as private companies running our armed forces, it seems that quite a bit of our supply chain has been outsourced. Getting back to prison specifics, here the field crews are not a for-profit venture. They do raise a lot of the food consumed by the prisons (or the high-grade fresh produce is sold to use to buy back more of lower grade foods), but its primary benefit is to keep them busy so they have less time to think of ways to cause trouble. As far as placing them in hazardous situations, many of them don’t even seem to be competent to use a chopping hoe; you’d have to spend some time around them to get a real appreciation of how using them in that way could make a potentially messy situation even worse.

 

[redbird444]

One in ten years, wow the prison is safer than I thought. Good Job Ray!

You thought prison was safe?

Most judgement and sentences result in plea bargain for a Life sentence or LWOP in lieu of the death penalty. And most of assaults on staff do not result in death.
Inmate on inmate assaults are very common in prisons. And the issue of support death penalty is a social issue decided by courts, not catholics online.

Texas Roofer, you still assume too much when reading my post and you are still trying to wage a battle against me when I am trying to add to the discussion at hand.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

You thought prison was safe?

Most judgement and sentences result in plea bargain for a Life sentence or LWOP in lieu of the death penalty. And most of assaults on staff do not result in death. Inmate on inmate assaults are very common in prisons.

And the issue of support death penalty is a social issue decided by courts, not catholics online.

Texas Roofer, you still assume too much when reading my post and you are still trying to wage a battle against me when I am trying to add to the discussion at hand.

I assume little and am not battling against you at all. Natural Law is the base for all these issues. The court is a group of humans, the prison is a group of humans, the criminals are a group of humans, the guards are a group of humans, the posters are a group of humans. The key is to get the humans to act well.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

I totally agree about the poor pay being a contributing factor. But when the state is also having to cut enrollment in the assisted health insurance program for children and is struggling to fund public education, there are not the resources to pay guards a significant amount. From that it should be simple to see that futuristic things like the fancy pacemakers are unfeasible for budgetary reasons, that’s more a future-tech situation, especially when building in the fail-safes for situations like when we had to use private buses to get enough transportation to empty prison units ahead of (or during/after) hurricane Rita.

If you want a low tax society, then you are paying the essential services peanuts, thus they can only employ monkeys.
Thus it is your own fault.
Good services need to be payed for.
That means tax dollars.
You cannot have the penny and the bun.
If Al Quaida can rig up a mobile phone to a detonator in a back room or kitchen, then I cannot see how it is difficult for Uncle Sam, who can land a man on the moon, cannot rig a car key fob to a pacemaker. The device does not need to be lethal, just cause unconciousness, or great fatigue. It is not rocket science. Surely this would be cheaper than building armour plated zoos.

As far as private companies running our armed forces, it seems that quite a bit of our supply chain has been outsourced. Getting back to prison specifics, here the field crews are not a for-profit venture. They do raise a lot of the food consumed by the prisons (or the high-grade fresh produce is sold to use to buy back more of lower grade foods), but its primary benefit is to keep them busy so they have less time to think of ways to cause trouble. As far as placing them in hazardous situations, many of them don’t even seem to be competent to use a chopping hoe; you’d have to spend some time around them to get a real appreciation of how using them in that way could make a potentially messy situation even worse.

If the lifers refused to take instruction, then they would be quickly eliminated in the course of duty. If thet are too stupid, then one might ask if they should be classified as imbecile, and whether they ought to be in a penal institution.
I still consider mine clearance to be the best start point. This would quickly eliminate the obstinate and those pretending stupidity. Actual stupidity would also be filtered out here.
This is not DP. This is useful expenditure of human resources.
Better this than risk valuable EOD personnel.
Who knows, some of the operatives may actually get good at the task, and take a pride in the work. Similar things happened in the Arena. Gladiators could progress to instructors, to managers, and even to freemen.

 

[dulcissima]

It’s kind of interesting to compare post # 396 (where humane and dignified are key) to this latest post (useful expenditure of human resources). Sort of wondering where the criterion of human dignity went, either for the prisoners who seem to be rather expendable or for their guards who are described as monkeys working for peanuts.

Voco proTatiano, you do have quite an imagination. I’m just glad that you are not on a prison reform task force.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

It’s kind of interesting to compare post # 396 (where humane and dignified are key) to this latest post (useful expenditure of human resources).

You find these two to be in conflict, I don’t.
We are talking about dangerous persons who have committed first degree murder, and in some states would be on death row.
I do not consider military training to be inherrantly inhumane, neither do I consider putting trained personnel in harm’s way to be inhumane.
These persons by their actions have sacrificed their right to life. They are, I suggest to be offered the dignity of using their lives in a beneficial way, that they might, at least partially, atone for their crime. They might in the process lose their lives, and such a sacrifice would be quite proper, or they might be lucky, and acquire sufficient skill in the work, that they might move on to training, as did skilled gladiators in the arena. They might even earn their freedom.
This is inhumane and undignified?

Sort of wondering where the criterion of human dignity went, either for the prisoners who seem to be rather expendable or for their guards who are described as monkeys working for peanuts.

For the first part, see above.
For the second part, I do not know where the proverb came from, it might be British, but it says: If you pay peanuts, you will employ monkeys.
I amplified the point saying that if you wanted a low tax society, and so deprived your social resources managemenr of fiscal resources, then you allocated to them only peanuts, guaranteeing that they could only employ monkeys.
If the hat fits, wear it.

Voco proTatiano, you do have quite an imagination. I’m just glad that you are not on a prison reform task force.

Someone needs imagination, the present route is only heading for disaster.

 

[Ender]

Ender as this is the second discussion on whether the Pope and Bishop’s quotes are being taken completely out of context See post 235 and post 251 I must ask you to review this with the moderators attached is the quotes with links

I have no idea what you refer to as I provided the links to the sources I was quoting. If you think the quotes were out of context then I suspect you don’t know the meaning of that term. Both Ratzinger and the USCCB plainly said that rejecting the Church’s teaching on the death penalty was not sinful; that this was not the subject of their respective documents is irrelevant.
I’m also clueless as to what this has to do with the moderators.

Ender

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I have no idea what you refer to as I provided the links to the sources I was quoting. If you think the quotes were out of context then I suspect you don’t know the meaning of that term. **Both Ratzinger and the USCCB plainly said that rejecting the Church’s teaching on the death penalty **was not sinful; that this was not the subject of their respective documents is irrelevant.
I’m also clueless as to what this has to do with the moderators.

Ender

Actually neither stated such, those comments came from Ender. Ender is misrepresenting the quotes and adding meaning did not exist.