Support the Death Penalty?

[TheOpenTheist]

In the order you asked 1) Am not sure God directly ordered such death, even if that is the case please read #2 2) He did! Jesus refused to stone the girl and said only those free of sin should be free to cast stones. I think this may be deeper than it appears. In your first question people were not supposed to be sinners (as the criminals are), in the stoning Jesus allowed stoning by those who were free of sin. So if we were a sin free society we may be allowed to stone. But we are not a sin free society so Jesus forbids us. 3) Yes, prison is just punishment see my post to Ender on that subject. 4) Yes prison does work. Millions have been through the penal system successfully. The biggest issue has been funding enough penal systems to allow a full sentence to be serviced.

1. God commanded that murderers, adulterers, kidnappers and rapists SURELY be put to death a number of times. To see just how many times God says “surely be put to death” go to this bible search engine and do a search for “surely be put to death” and then tell me if you are still unsure of whether God commanded that these convicted criminals SURELY be executed.

olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

SURELY means no other options. No escape from that punishment. Convicted of murder? Then execution is a SURE thing.

1. Jesus Christ is not commenting on criminal justice in John 8. Its much more complicated than you think. He made that statement in order to get out of the jam He was put in by the Pharisees. Let me explain and make it extremely coherent for you and others reading this so you never mangle what Jesus said in John 8 ever again.

The Woman Caught In Adultery

Does the story of the woman caught in adultery, forgiven and released (John 8:3-11) negate the death penalty?
**
God Forgave Adulterers Before**

Gomer was an adulteress yet God forgave her (Hos. 3:1). Still, He demanded that His people obey His law (Hos. 4:6).

King David committed adultery and murder (2 Sam. 11). Yet God forgave him (Psalm 32:1-5).

It was a conscious decision on God’s part to not execute David. As Nathan said to David:

As Nathan said to David:

* "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. However... by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme..." 2 Sam. 12:13

Still, God’s law remained in effect (Ps. 1:2; 19:7; 78:1, 5-8; 89:30-32; 119).

God forgave the New Testament adulterer just as He forgave Old Testament adulterers, in neither instance revoking His law. God has all authority to forgive the criminal and disregard temporal punishment. Contrariwise, Men must obey God and cannot ignore punishment.

The Pharisees Wanted to Trap Christ

The Pharisees wanted to accuse Jesus of rebelling against the Roman Empire:

*** This [the Pharisees] said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. John 8:6 **

Rome had revoked the Jews’ authority to put a criminal to death (John 18:31). A straight-forward answer to the Pharisees would have brought Jesus into premature conflict with Rome before His “hour had come.” Jesus solved this problem stating, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first” (John 8:7). Christ often frustrated the Pharisees giving clever answers that thwarted their wicked intentions (Mat. 22:15-22; 21:21-27; Mark 12:13-17; Luke 20:20-26).

 

[TheOpenTheist]

1. Yes, prison is just punishment see my post to Ender on that subject. 4) Yes prison does work. Millions have been through the penal system successfully. The biggest issue has been funding enough penal systems to allow a full sentence to be serviced.

God says that prison is UNJUST punishment for capital crimes.

Numbers 35:31,33 ‘Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death… So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it.’

This is still demonstrably true today. The unatoned for blood of 100,000s of murders in the USA has defiled the land and created a culture of fear and insecurity for families everywhere.

Prison does not work. Prison is like criminal college where many criminals are able to learn and work with each other once they get out.

Many do, and this has resulted in roughly 2/3 of released prisoners committing more crime and being sent back to prison shortly after they were released.

If you believe that God is right, and that He knows best, then you should join me in supporting what HE says is the right response to crime. Those responses are restitution, corporal punishment and capital punishment. Prisons, God has made clear, are unjust and have proven to be ineffective.

 

[TheOpenTheist]

And adulterers (Lev. 20:10-21).
And fornicators (Deut 22:20, 21).
And blasphemers (Lev. 24:11-14).
And people who curse their parents (Lev. 20:9)

You support execution of people for these crimes too, right? Because after all, if God intended the criminal code of ancient Israel’s theocracy to apply to modern nations, then it ALL must apply, right?

So which method of execution do you support for fornicators? Lethal injection? Gas chamber? Or should we stick to stoning?

I favor stoning and firing squads because they are quick and can be done at little cost.

It seems that you have not read carefully what I have written, since I mentioned adultery, yet you listed it as an additional capital crime. Why is your ability to read so poor Gamera?

Fornication is not a capital crime. God says very explicitly that the punishment for fornication is to pay a fine to the woman’s dad and that the two be married the rest of their lives. Here is where God says that.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
" If a man finds a young woman [who is] a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29 "then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.

I really love that law! That would greatly cut down on those who have sex before marriage if they knew that they would have to get married and were unable to divorce for the rest of their lives if they were “found out”.

The only capital crimes that should be punished with execution by ALL governments in order to bring about justice are murder, rape, kidnapping, adultery and sodomy. And also in cases of perjury where the perjury committed results in the acquital of someone guilty of a capital crime.

I will post the criminal code I want to see enforced below in the next post.

 

[TheOpenTheist]

America’s Criminal Code

You shall not murder. Judges will execute those convicted of murder (Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14; 20:13; Lev. 24:17, 21; Num. 35:16-21, 31; Deut. 19:11-13; 1Ki. 18:22, 39-40; 1 Tim. 1:8-10) including those euthanizing, starving, or aborting (Ex. 21:22-23) human beings from the moment of fertilization to natural death. Judges will flog those guilty of assault and impose restitution for lost income and medical expenses (Ex. 21:18-19), and for permanent injury also require an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, life for life (Lev. 24:19-20). Judges will carry out all corporal and capital punishments swiftly and painfully, within twenty-four hours of conviction; and limit floggings to forty blows (Deut. 25:1-3; Lev. 24:19-20; 19:16-21; 1 Pet. 2:20). Judges will not convict for the use of force in defense of property and the innocent, in escalation to match the perceived threat up to lethal force; nor for purely accidental homicide (Deut. 19:4); will execute those guilty of negligent homicide (Ex. 21:28-30; Deut. 22:8); and flog those who could have avoided otherwise accidental homicide, and anyone committing revenge killing (Num. 35:26-27) of those guilty of capital crimes.

You shall not commit adultery. Judges will execute those convicted of bestiality (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16); those convicted of incest including with in-laws (Lev. 11-12, 14-15, 17, 19-21); of homosexual acts (Lev. 18:22, 29; 20:13); of child molestation; of kidnapping or rape (Ex. 21:15-16; Deut. 22:25-27; 24:7); and of adultery with a married woman (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22; Ex. 20:14). Judges will flog those convicted of fornication; of public use of vulgar sexual and excretory language; of sexually suggestive dress or behavior; of intoxication; and of possession of pornography. Judges will flog more severely those convicted of transvestism; of public nudity; and of distributing pornography. And judges will flog more severely still those convicted of prostitution; of producing pornography for any use; and of sexual acts in public places.

You shall not steal. Judges will flog and require restitution for convicted thieves, negligent recipients of stolen goods, and those who violate contracts (Deut. 25:1‑3). Judges will impose double restitution for recovered goods, the return of the goods plus one-hundred percent value (Ex. 22:4, 7-9; 20:15); quadruple for destroyed or sold goods; quintuple for intellectual, irreplaceable and sentimental goods (Ex. 22:1); seven times for insignificant goods (Prov. 6:30-31); and twenty percent for voluntarily surrendered goods (Lev. 6:1-7). The judge shall impose corporal punishment and life for life penalties for collateral damage from any crime, including bodily injury resulting from the destruction of property which warrants greater than even restitution. A person or his resources causing unforeseeable or unavoidable property damage including by natural disaster without negligence shall pay no restitution, or with negligence shall pay even restitution. Persons taking shared risk shall pay mutual restitution (Ex. 21:32-36; Lev. 24:18). Avoidable accident without negligence, including the malfunction of a maintained resource requires even restitution but with negligence, including by a neglected resource demands double restitution. Gross negligence requires quadruple restitution and intentional destruction demands quintuple restitution. Excepting those executed, judges will sentence those who cannot pay restitution, to indentured servitude for up to seven years with the victim receiving all service or earnings.

 

[rpp]

Personally, I think I will stick with what the Church teaches about capital punishment. I will also very carefully take into account to words of both Pope John Paul II and Pope Pius XII on this matter.

I am not so bloodthirsty that I feel that execution for adultery is an appropriate punishment.

 

[TheOpenTheist]

You shall not bear false witness. Judges will punish those convicted of perjury, false confession, credible threat, conspiracy, abbeting, attempt, fully as though they had personally committed the crime (Deut. 19:16-21; 2 Sam. 1:15-16; Ex. 20:16). Judges will flog and impose restitution on those convicted of slander. Judges will flog those in contempt of court, and execute those guilty of treason and violators of court orders which protect victims (Deut. 17:12-13). A man is not innocent until proven guilty. He is guilty the moment he commits a crime, but presumed innocent (Deut. 22:22-27) in court until convicted. Convicting the innocent and acquitting the guilty are equally unjust (Pro. 17:15). A judge at his discretion, suspends the rights of liberty including the use of weapons, for the credibly accused, and mandatorily confines one facing a likely sentence of maiming or capital punishment, until the rendering of a verdict. Reasonable evidence from two or three witnesses, whether from eyewitnesses, physical, or strong circumstantial evidence, shall suffice for conviction; individual rights shall not supersede the judge’s God-given right to impose punishment on the guilty. Judges shall not grant nor have special immunity from prosecution; shall not give more lenient punishment to minors; shall not give special recognition to lawyers or experts in the law; may observe and advise other judges during trial **; shall not allow witnesses to swear or give an oath (James 5:12, Mat. 5:34-37; 2 Cor. 1:17); and shall question witnesses directly. Judges shall not accept no-contest pleas or bargains; shall punish criminals for all collateral damage; shall permit witnesses and victims to participate in punishment (Deut. 13:9; 17:7); and shall show no mercy to the guilty (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31).

America’s Criminal Code shall be enforced by the King as authorized in The Constitution of America.**

 

[TheOpenTheist]

Personally, I think I will stick with what the Church teaches about capital punishment. I will also very carefully take into account to words of both Pope John Paul II and Pope Pius XII on this matter.

I am not so bloodthirsty that I feel that execution for adultery is an appropriate punishment.

Letting adulterers live results in more pain, destruction and death than executing a few convicted adulterers each year to keep adultery rare.

When you reject God’s punishment for adultery in favor of your own punishment that you believe is BETTER than God’s, you are playing God.

You should stop playing God and promote God’s response to murder, rape, kidnapping, adultery and sodomy. If you love your neighbor then you will promote God’s criminal code for the good of your neighbor and your community.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way [that seems] right to a man, But its end [is] the way of death.

 

[TheOpenTheist]

I abhor the use of the death penalty. I know that the Church allows for its use when it is the only way to be assured of stopping a monster from continuing to hurt society, but I don’t think our country, at least, needs this option. As KathleenElise said, the death penalty is often the only way to ensure that some of the most horrific criminals are kept behind bars and I totally agree with that - up to the point of actually putting them to death. The very thought that one human being can cause the death of another - whether it is a criminal on the street or the legal executioner at the jail - I just can’t imagine how anyone could ever!

“Why is it okay to kill someone to punish them for killing someone?”

On another site, this: “Doesn’t the Bible also say: Thou shalt not kill? That’s what always amazes me about the religious people: they live with the Bible in their hand, but also are in favor of the death penalty. That’s like being a vegetarian butcher!”

Are you aware that God instituted the death penalty for murderers in Genesis 9:6? Are you also aware that Jesus Christ gave the law You Shall Not Murder in Exodus 20 and in Exodus 21 Jesus Christ commanded to surely execute each person convicted of murder?

If you were unaware, read God’s exact words here.

Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.

Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.

Exodus 21:14 But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.

 

[SoCalRC]

Personally, I think I will stick with what the Church teaches about capital punishment. I will also very carefully take into account to words of both Pope John Paul II and Pope Pius XII on this matter.

I am not so bloodthirsty that I feel that execution for adultery is an appropriate punishment.

+1 (on both counts). I always point to my handle, I’m Roman Catholic, so I look to the Magesterium to resolve conflicts in Holy Scripture or Holy Tradition.

 

[rpp]

Letting adulterers live results in more pain, destruction and death than executing a few convicted adulterers each year to keep adultery rare.

{Personal insults and blasphemous remarks removed}

I think you should read Acts Chapter 15, the Council of Jerusalem when issues of the Law were were determined.

I also encourage you to avoid breaking any more forum rules, including the rule about insulting people and using blasphemy.

 

[rpp]

Are you aware that God instituted the death penalty for murderers in Genesis 9:6?

Are you aware that your stance is in contradiction to the Teachings of the Church? Please refer to the Council of Jerusalem, Acts 15.

 

[rpp]

America’s Criminal Code shall be enforced by the King as authorized in The Constitution of America.

:hypno:

 

[TheOpenTheist]

They didn’t specificly address the punishment of capital criminals in Acts 15. The apostle Paul went to jerusalem to make sure that James, Peter and John and the others did not interfere with his ministry that he had received directly from teh risen Christ 17 years earlier (according to Galatians 1-2).

I did not insult you. All I did was relate the fact that if God says the just punishment for adultery is execution of the adulterers, and you say “no, that’s too harsh and barbaric, they should not be executed” which is basicly what you said, then you sound like you are playing God in promoting what seems right to you regardless of what God has explicitly said.

 

[TheOpenTheist]

Were you aware that adultery was a crime around the world and in the USA for over 3,500 years until it was de-criminalized here in the USA about 40 years ago.

Hillary, Hollywood, the Humanists and the Homos worked to de-criminalize adultery and they succeeded and the church has joined them!

Reject the 4-H club and believe God when He says that adultery is a capital crime.

Re-criminalizing adultery is the ONLY way to stop the adultery epidemic in the USA. There is no other way.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

edited to preserve thread flow, somehow I missed how much had been said already…

 

[Ender]

What we have here is a continuation of the failure, not just by you, but by many others, to understand the meaning of words.

I will agree that what we have is a disagreement over the meaning of certain words. I am of a different mind over which of us misunderstands them.

Here we have ‘retribution’ being used where atonement would have been better. … In the Latin, ‘retribution’ can be used for atonement, when, and only when, it is instituted by the offender, to make good the loss caused by the offense, that is, the repayment of the debt, (sin).

This is partially true: (CCC 2266) “When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation.” The offender doesn’t have to institute the punishment, he only has to accept it, but retribution is required even if it is not voluntarily accepted and even though there is no atonement.

More commonly, the word was used to mean the payment , in evil, to be given to the offender, for the evil of the offense. That is in fact vengeance.

The first sentence is correct, the second is not. It is true that the word means the payment, in evil, to be given to the offender for the evil of the offense but the evils are of two different kinds. Aquinas directly addressed this point and explains the difference (I’m on a borrowed computer and don’t have access to my notes). This is most assuredly not vengeance - it is justice.

I am inclined to believe that Mother Church is not calling for vengeance, so must be using the word, inadvisedly, in place of ‘atonement’

I am equally sure she isn’t calling for vengeance, and also that she perfectly understands the meanings of the words, and is using them correctly.

Again you are tying justice to retribution, without thought to what this word means. You seem inclined to want vengeance, I believe that Mother Church requires atonement.

What I am doing is quoting Church sources; I am using the words in the same context in which I see them used. Here is Cardinal Dulles explaining the meaning of retribution: “Retribution. In principle, guilt calls for punishment.” You define this as vengeance, the Church does not. Whether or not there is atonement - which requires the participation of the sinner - there must be punishment, or, as the catechism says: “Punishment … has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.” Note the “as far as possible” - rehabilitation is desirable but is not required to justify punishment.

It is right, and it is Christian, that we should attempt to repay our debts, but Our Lord said: ‘Forgive us our debts, for we have forgiven those indebted to us.’

This is a different argument. If you want to incorporate the concept of mercy into the discussion, go for it. Just remember that even forgiveness does not eliminate the need for punishment.

Ender

 

[SoCalRC]

“Punishment … has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.” Note the “as far as possible” - rehabilitation is desirable but is not required to justify punishment.

Not to be difficult, but wouldn’t this fit Pope John Paul II’s argument? Life in prison provides a greater opportunity for reconcilliation and salvation than execution.

Also, forgive me if I’m wrong (away from my notes as well), but didn’t St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Antoninus both write that only confessed sins should be addressed by the ordinary? I thought the reasoning was that if a priest assigned pennance for observed behavior he would be ignoring Christ’s admonishments about judging others.

 

[Ender]

wouldn’t this fit Pope John Paul II’s argument? Life in prison provides a greater opportunity for reconcilliation and salvation than execution.

Rehabilitation is one of the objectives of punishment but not the primary one. You would like to be able to satisfy all of the objectives - but the primary objective must be satisfied even at the sacrifice of a lesser one. Besides, as Samuel Johnson wrote: “The realisation that one is to be hanged in the morning tends to concentrate the mind wonderfully.” I’m not at all convinced that spending decades locked up with the dregs of the world will cause an inmate to ponder his eternal fate better than having his mind “wonderfully concentrated.”

Also, forgive me if I’m wrong (away from my notes as well), but didn’t St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Antoninus both write that only confessed sins should be addressed by the ordinary? I thought the reasoning was that if a priest assigned pennance for observed behavior he would be ignoring Christ’s admonishments about judging others.

Ummm … what??

Ender

 

[SoCalRC]

Rehabilitation is one of the objectives of punishment but not the primary one. You would like to be able to satisfy all of the objectives - but the primary objective must be satisfied even at the sacrifice of a lesser one.

At the cost of innocent lives? I am sorry to sound like a broken record, but at what point does the need to punish ‘severely enough’ get overshadowed by associated costs to society?

This reminds me of trying to discuss war policy. Yes, I get the principle of self defense, but if ‘defense’ requires involvement in human trafficing and secret prisons, beating a middle aged man to death inside a sleeping bag, or the torture/crucifixion death of a suspect picked up on circumstantial evidence, at some point it seems reasonable to wonder rather or not defense is coming at the expense of one’s own immortal soul.

As far as ‘clarity of mind’, I couldn’t really judge another human’s capacity for redemption and good. By his own admission, St. Paul was a participant in the torture murder of a human being because of his religious beliefs. In many states in the US he would be eligible for the death penalty. But had he been executed for that crime it seems reasonable to suppose that Pauline Christianity might well never have existed. As it was, he was eventually subjected to capital punishment, completely in compliance with secular authority.

Ummm … what??

Both saints wrote about the sacrement of confession/reconcilliation. Both seemed to say that it was innappropriate for a priest to punish sinful behavior he had observed and should, instead, limit punishment to behavior confessed.

It makes for tedius reading (St. Antoninus goes on for about 60 pages about Mary), but the gyst seems to be that not making moral judgements of others is important because it is a recurring them in Jesus’ ministry.

 

[rpp]

As far as ‘clarity of mind’, I couldn’t really judge another human’s capacity for redemption and good. By his own admission, St. Paul was a participant in the torture murder of a human being because of his religious beliefs. In many states in the US he would be eligible for the death penalty. But had he been executed for that crime it seems reasonable to suppose that Pauline Christianity might well never have existed. As it was, he was eventually subjected to capital punishment, completely in compliance with secular authority.

What the then Saul of Tarsus did was not a crime at the time. Had it been illegal, it is unlikely that St. Stephen would have been executed/martyred. Remember, under the Law of Moses, stoning a person to death is the appropriate penalty for blasphemy. Saul was blindly following the Law with his heart closed, not receptive to the Gospel.

As for the other speculation, I do not think that is a good argument to make in any case in support of any idea, however noble.