Supporting Israel?

[Luke_L]

Sorry, I’m new, so I apologise if I wrote this in the improper section or if it was previously answered. From what I could tell, the subject hasn’t been talked about enough, and this seems to be the appropriate section. Then again, I’m the paranoid type…

So, I recently had this conversation with a couple people online and from here and there. From what I could tell, there is a huge amount of Christians support Israel. This is where the questions flood.

Are we, as Christians, religiously forced to support the state of Israel or the establishment of a Jewish homeland? I mean, I cannot imagine God would tell us that it’s OK to murder people and exile them all in the sake of getting people who used to live there a couple thousand years ago a home there. Don’t get me wrong, both the Israelis and the Palestinians have committed wrong-doings, but remember that these aren’t two equal sides; Occupier, and occupied. Israel is the nation with nuclear weapons and such, so why should the people fighting for self-determination with rocks be judged to cruelly?

I, personally, am a pacifist. I believe that everything can be solved through non-violence, however in this case. I can’t deny the acts of the Palestinians. It is all done with righteousness in mind. Please note that I am not referring to the acts of Hamas or the PLO but rather the TRUE Palestinians who are living in Gaza and the West Banks. The people who day by day struggle to survive, let alone get a loaf of bread. If you just flip at a random page of the New Testament you will undoubtedly find one of Christ’s words that contradict with what Israel is doing. So why do a lot of people support it?

This issue is pretty serious. It has caused a huge amount of problems in the middle-east. It became so well-intergrated into the minds of Arabs and Jews alike that it’s basically part of their culture now. Also, a lot of people seem to call me an anti-semite if I say anything against Israel (most of whom are Christians) why must people confuse anti-zionism with anti-semitism? I would find it quite difficult to believe that what is going on in Israel and Palestine right now could be remotely called justice. Yet people support Israel. I simply am unable to fathom it. If Christ told us to support what Israel is doing then basically all his teachings become moot because Israel violated most of them.

What is your opinion on the subject? I would be glad to hear them. Thanks for listening!

 

[GEddie]

Depends what you mean.

If you mean, “support everything the state and it’s current leadership/citizens are doing,” then no, every nation is subject to criticism.

If you mean “support for the existence of the state, as it is known now,” then yes, we should support them because a) it’s there to stay and b) it is to the world’s advantage that the places connected with our LORD’s life not be under Muslim command.

Rather than attach emotionally to either side, Arab or Israeli (the atomic weapons were never used, and rocks do kill), we should favor a peace that benefits both sides.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Verbum]

Hi, Luke,

The return of the Jews to Israel is a movement called Zionism, named after the mountain of Zion (or Sion) on which Jerusalem is built. Although theologically based, the intent was above all to provide a home for Jews who were persecuted in various part of the world. However, Palestine was not a land empty of people. Palestine was occupied by the Romans, the Byzantians, Persians, various Arab dynasties, and by the Turks (Otttomans).

After World War I (in which the Turks were among the losers) the British took over the government of Palestine and declared that they were in favor of creating a home in Palestine for the Jewish people (Balfour declaration) , emphasizing that the rights of all communities in Palestine were to be respected and the the existence of this Home should not diminish the rights of Jews throughout the world.

After World War II, the pressure grew from Jews to establish this Home, There was even a Jewish terrorist movement. The Briltish proposed various solutions but could not reach an agreement with the local populations. Finally, they handed the problem over to the UN, which came up with the division of Palestine. This started a war with the Arab nations and led to the situation that exists today.

Some thoughts.

.+ The British had no authority promising a National Home for the Jews. without consulting all the communities of Palestine.

• There is no biblical right to the return of the Jews. Although God originally gave a land to the Israelites, they lost it several times by their infidelity. And there is no biblical prophesy that said they would return after being forbidden residence by the Romans.
• If we applied the principle of “return” throughout the world, at least three quarters of the world’s population would have to move
• The division of Palestine, rightly or wrongly, is perceived as an injustice. taking away property from non-Jews and giving it to Jews.
• You can’t put the toothpaste back into the tube, no matter the size of the mess. It would be compounding an injustice to throw the Jews out, even if that were possible. We must pray that good men will rise who can go beyond hatred and prejudice to achieve a durable solution.

Verbum

 

[PaulinePresbytr]

Sorry, I’m new, so I apologise if I wrote this in the improper section or if it was previously answered. From what I could tell, the subject hasn’t been talked about enough, and this seems to be the appropriate section. Then again, I’m the paranoid type…

So, I recently had this conversation with a couple people online and from here and there. From what I could tell, there is a huge amount of Christians support Israel. This is where the questions flood.

Are we, as Christians, religiously forced to support the state of Israel or the establishment of a Jewish homeland? I mean, I cannot imagine God would tell us that it’s OK to murder people and exile them all in the sake of getting people who used to live there a couple thousand years ago a home there. Don’t get me wrong, both the Israelis and the Palestinians have committed wrong-doings, but remember that these aren’t two equal sides; Occupier, and occupied. Israel is the nation with nuclear weapons and such, so why should the people fighting for self-determination with rocks be judged to cruelly?

I, personally, am a pacifist. I believe that everything can be solved through non-violence, however in this case. I can’t deny the acts of the Palestinians. It is all done with righteousness in mind. Please note that I am not referring to the acts of Hamas or the PLO but rather the TRUE Palestinians who are living in Gaza and the West Banks. The people who day by day struggle to survive, let alone get a loaf of bread. If you just flip at a random page of the New Testament you will undoubtedly find one of Christ’s words that contradict with what Israel is doing. So why do a lot of people support it?

This issue is pretty serious. It has caused a huge amount of problems in the middle-east. It became so well-intergrated into the minds of Arabs and Jews alike that it’s basically part of their culture now. Also, a lot of people seem to call me an anti-semite if I say anything against Israel (most of whom are Christians) why must people confuse anti-zionism with anti-semitism? I would find it quite difficult to believe that what is going on in Israel and Palestine right now could be remotely called justice. Yet people support Israel. I simply am unable to fathom it. If Christ told us to support what Israel is doing then basically all his teachings become moot because Israel violated most of them.

What is your opinion on the subject? I would be glad to hear them. Thanks for listening!

I must ask why the Palestinians can’t use some of the other 98% of land left in the Arab world, you know, the parts that are actually filled with natural resources that could help them prosper. The poverty is no fault of Israels, it is the fault of organizations that are hostile to Israel and refuse the Israeli’s help. I’d like to note that no one was complaining or crying out about the “plight” plight of the Palestinians when Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza, respectively, after the Israeli war of independence until 1967, and treated the Palestinians with downright cruelty, but ever since Israel took control of that land they’ve been saying that they are oppressed even though Israel gave them autonomy and Israel tries to help them.

The fact of the matter is that the rest of the nations in the Arab world want the 2 state “solution” because it makes Israel indefensible and removes Israeli protection for those living in the West Bank and Gaza, they want to knock out two birds with one stone. You’ll note that none of the other countries in that region besides Lebanon and Turkey are in anyway welcoming to the Palestinians, much like how the Kurds.

 

[PaulinePresbytr]

Hi, Luke,

The return of the Jews to Israel is a movement called Zionism, named after the mountain of Zion (or Sion) on which Jerusalem is built. Although theologically based, the intent was above all to provide a home for Jews who were persecuted in various part of the world. However, Palestine was not a land empty of people. Palestine was occupied by the Romans, the Byzantians, Persians, various Arab dynasties, and by the Turks (Otttomans).

After World War I (in which the Turks were among the losers) the British took over the government of Palestine and declared that they were in favor of creating a home in Palestine for the Jewish people (Balfour declaration) , emphasizing that the rights of all communities in Palestine were to be respected and the the existence of this Home should not diminish the rights of Jews throughout the world.

After World War II, the pressure grew from Jews to establish this Home, There was even a Jewish terrorist movement. The Briltish proposed various solutions but could not reach an agreement with the local populations. Finally, they handed the problem over to the UN, which came up with the division of Palestine. This started a war with the Arab nations and led to the situation that exists today.

Some thoughts.

.+ The British had no authority promising a National Home for the Jews. without consulting all the communities of Palestine.

• There is no biblical right to the return of the Jews. Although God originally gave a land to the Israelites, they lost it several times by their infidelity. And there is no biblical prophesy that said they would return after being forbidden residence by the Romans.
• If we applied the principle of “return” throughout the world, at least three quarters of the world’s population would have to move
• The division of Palestine, rightly or wrongly, is perceived as an injustice. taking away property from non-Jews and giving it to Jews.
• You can’t put the toothpaste back into the tube, no matter the size of the mess. It would be compounding an injustice to throw the Jews out, even if that were possible. We must pray that good men will rise who can go beyond hatred and prejudice to achieve a durable solution.

Verbum

A durable solution is the one state solution. It protects both peoples. If the two state solution succeeds both people will be indefensible, and the Arab nations such as Syria and Iran who are openly hostile to both peoples will capitalize on that and try to knock out 2 birds with 1 stone. The fact of the matter is that its a myth that Israel’s government is oppressive. A photo promoted by pro Palestinian groups as being a child killed by Israeli forces can also be found in a slideshow from a month earlier… of a child killed in the Syrian civil war by the Syrian government. A video on BBC showed a Palestinian civilian who couldn’t walk and was injured by Israeli forces, who, only seconds later, was perfectly fine.

 

[fatima12]

Since Christ specifically said His Kingdom is not of this world I fail to understand why we should bother ourselves with the fate of a man made nation

 

[PaulinePresbytr]

Since Christ specifically said His Kingdom is not of this world I fail to understand why we should bother ourselves with the fate of a man made nation

Same reason we are interested in the fate of the United States. Israel generally upholds our founding values. They are also our strongest ally in the Middle East. I absolutely would not have advocated creating a Jewish state in Palestine which was an absurd idea nor do I unconditionally support Israel, but as it stands right now we should support them.

 

[fatima12]

Same reason we are interested in the fate of the United States. Israel generally upholds our founding values. They are also our strongest ally in the Middle East. I absolutely would not have advocated creating a Jewish state in Palestine which was an absurd idea nor do I unconditionally support Israel, but as it stands right now we should support them.

Our founding values? whose? Us as Catholics? We have the church and we have Christ.
Why should we support them? Israel is a jewish state they dont recognize Christ as Messiah. We are Christians our core is precisely recognizing Christ as Messiah. To me it seems we belong to two different flocks.

 

[danrooke]

Hello Luke,

After a lenghty debate on this site it appears the catholic position is to forgive in favour of Peace. I have volenteered in Holy Land to teach english to children in the west bank. I was ale to go because of my local parish, aside from my Fr. putting me into contact with the catholic organisers for the job, the parish was able to donate around £1,500 to help support some of the stuggling Catholic schools/communities in the west bank (which currently recieve no government funding (This includes schools on both sides of the wall)). I went over there and had a wonderful time teaching and saw many wonderful things. I also saw some very shocking and depressing things and I can testify that Peace is urgently required and desired (at least according to the people I met).

You are perfectly able to support Palestine or Israel. But it is far more Catholic to support peace. But our church is all about truth, so all you need to do is find out what the truth is and that will be the right catholic way to think about it (Can’t speak for other christians).

God Bless,

Dan.

 

[GEddie]

Our founding values? whose? Us as Catholics? We have the church and we have Christ.
Why should we support them? Israel is a jewish state they dont recognize Christ as Messiah. We are Christians our core is precisely recognizing Christ as Messiah. To me it seems we belong to two different flocks.

The NT would disagree with you.

Remember, WE are piggybacked onto THEM (Judaism), not the other way around.

And every modern nation has a slew of injustices in its attic. If Israel should be condemned because it’s founders committed injustices, then logically, USAnians and Canadians who condemn it should return to England, France, etc.

It’s moot anyway. The Israelis are not going anywhere. Both sides need to scale back on their collective grudges and find a way to coexist.

ICXC NIKA

 

[PaulinePresbytr]

Our founding values? whose? Us as Catholics? We have the church and we have Christ.
Why should we support them? Israel is a jewish state they dont recognize Christ as Messiah. We are Christians our core is precisely recognizing Christ as Messiah. To me it seems we belong to two different flocks.

When I said founding values I said that in reference to the United States

 

[fatima12]

When I said founding values I said that in reference to the United States

I think op adressed the question from a religious point of view. Should we as Christians support Israel? As Christians we should try to imitate Christ. Therefore the obvious question would be : Would Christ support Israel? I highly doubt it. His Kingdom is not of this world. To Caesar that which is of Caesar , To God that which is of God.

 

[fatima12]

The NT would disagree with you.

Remember, WE are piggybacked onto THEM (Judaism), not the other way around.

And every modern nation has a slew of injustices in its attic. If Israel should be condemned because it’s founders committed injustices, then logically, USAnians and Canadians who condemn it should return to England, France, etc.

It’s moot anyway. The Israelis are not going anywhere. Both sides need to scale back on their collective grudges and find a way to coexist.

ICXC NIKA

We are not piggy backed on them. We are based on the teachings of Christ. Christ established a New Covenant and did away with the old. You cant put new wine in old wineskins.

Christianity is not about Israel. Israel is a small middle eastern country no more no less. Christianity is about Christ and His teachings. The way to spiritual freedom. The goal : The Kingdom.

 

[BTNYC]

The NT would disagree with you.

Remember, WE are piggybacked onto THEM (Judaism), not the other way around.

And every modern nation has a slew of injustices in its attic. If Israel should be condemned because it’s founders committed injustices, then logically, USAnians and Canadians who condemn it should return to England, France, etc.

It’s moot anyway. The Israelis are not going anywhere. Both sides need to scale back on their collective grudges and find a way to coexist.

ICXC NIKA

We are “piggybacked” onto nobody. The religion of the prophets was a sacerdotal and messianic one. The Messiah came, abolished the old sacrifice and instituted the Sacrifice of the Mass. The Catholic Church is the completed, perfected religion of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and is the true Israel.

Modern day Judaism is a man made affair based mostly upon the pharisaical gnat-strainings of the Talmud. And I, as a Catholic, owe it no more allegiance than I do to a modern foreign state that happens to bear the name “Israel.”

 

[tabycat]

I think op adressed the question from a religious point of view. Should we as Christians support Israel? As Christians we should try to imitate Christ. Therefore the obvious question would be : Would Christ support Israel? I highly doubt it. His Kingdom is not of this world. To Caesar that which is of Caesar , To God that which is of God.

We live in the world, there are few of us called to be Amish or hermits, and even they do not live with no help from the world. About Christ supporting Israel, would He support Israel’s foes? You know, the ones that what ALL Isrealis (Jew, Mosalom, and Christian) dead.

 

[tabycat]

Are we, as Christians, religiously forced to support the state of Israel or the establishment of a Jewish homeland? I mean, I cannot imagine God would tell us that it’s OK to murder people and exile them all in the sake of getting people who used to live there a couple thousand years ago a home there. Don’t get me wrong, both the Israelis and the Palestinians have committed wrong-doings, but remember that these aren’t two equal sides; Occupier, and occupied. Israel is the nation with nuclear weapons and such, so why should the people fighting for self-determination with rocks be judged to cruell

From the news I have seen and heard, the Palestinians are not throwning rocks, they are shotting rockets at and setting off bombs in Isreal. Or maybe those rockets and bombs are realing rocks and we all have been duped into believing that the rocks are really rockets and bombs.

 

[Aloysium]

the lesser of two evils is never a good

 

[Luke_L]

I must ask why the Palestinians can’t use some of the other 98% of land left in the Arab world, you know, the parts that are actually filled with natural resources that could help them prosper. The poverty is no fault of Israels, it is the fault of organizations that are hostile to Israel and refuse the Israeli’s help. I’d like to note that no one was complaining or crying out about the “plight” plight of the Palestinians when Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza, respectively, after the Israeli war of independence until 1967, and treated the Palestinians with downright cruelty, but ever since Israel took control of that land they’ve been saying that they are oppressed even though Israel gave them autonomy and Israel tries to help them.

The fact of the matter is that the rest of the nations in the Arab world want the 2 state “solution” because it makes Israel indefensible and removes Israeli protection for those living in the West Bank and Gaza, they want to knock out two birds with one stone. You’ll note that none of the other countries in that region besides Lebanon and Turkey are in anyway welcoming to the Palestinians, much like how the Kurds.

Didn’t Israel kick them out of their homes? Bomb them?

Please think of it from this side. What if someone goes to the U.S or the U.K and kick you out of your home and claims: ‘why not use 98% of the land in the world?’ I simply cannot fathom it. Either way, Lebanon has refused the Palestinians from Syria just a day ago.

 

[Luke_L]

From the news I have seen and heard, the Palestinians are not throwning rocks, they are shotting rockets at and setting off bombs in Isreal. Or maybe those rockets and bombs are realing rocks and we all have been duped into believing that the rocks are really rockets and bombs.

That’s Hamas. Not the Palestinians. Confusing the two is a grave mistake.

Either way, Hamas rockets only usually end up in the middle of the road in the Negev with 0-4 casualties, whilst one Israeli bombing ends up with 46 casualties. Last time they entered Gaza they bombed the refugee buildings and killed all the children.

 

[GEddie]

That’s Hamas. Not the Palestinians. Confusing the two is a grave mistake.

Either way, Hamas rockets only usually end up in the middle of the road in the Negev with 0-4 casualties, whilst one Israeli bombing ends up with 46 casualties. Last time they entered Gaza they bombed the refugee buildings and killed all the children.

Hamas is the elected leadership of the Palestinians; and it has sworn to fight for the elimination of Israel.

To distinguish Hamas from Palestinian is about as useful as, in 1942, distinguishing Nazi from German. (Yes, I know, Godwin’s Law…) Such a distinction is useless as long as the leadership continues fighting.

ICXC NIKA