Supporting Large Families

[mom24boys]

Another thread has me thinking… what can the Church do in order to better support large families? I know all families need help from time to time, but I am specifically asking about large families because I think there is a particular burden on larger families in this culture. I know I have very little support from my own family because they think we are making a mistake in bringing more children into the world after some of the previous struggles we have faced. And I think that when a large family is struggling, there may be an underlying belief that they have brought the problems on themselves.

So, if the Church is going to be pro-life and against artificial ABC, then large families should be offered more practical support. Any thoughts or specific ideas?

 

[gardenswithkids]

One way that I find support is through the ministry of CAF. Simply knowing other Catholics with large families helps me.

Another thing that I would like is if when Catholics present the teachings of the Church on NFP and family planning, that they at least mention that couples should have a significant reason if they use NFP to avoid pregnancy. Otherwise, it sometimes comes across as if they’re saying, “all good Catholics should use NFP”. That can make large families look like “NFP failures” to those less familiar with Church teachings, which can leave people with negative impressions of both NFP and large families.

Multi-child discounts or “family rates” at Catholic functions and Catholic institutions is also a nice thing. Back in the old days, large Catholic familes could afford Catholic schools. Some Catholics now look at the cost of Catholic schools and decide that they cannot afford both more children and a Catholic education for existing children.

In general, encouraging greater support for parishes, Catholic education and all Catholic ministries would help both large families and others. Sad to say that (on average) Catholics don’t give to the Church as much as most Protestants do, Many Catholics who work for social justice seem to think the money should come from the Government to help the poor. (In other words, from mandatory taxes rather than voluntary contributions.) Many priests and even bishops seem to want to avoid those “money talks” to ask us Catholics to give more, and when they do it’s usually for specific projects rather than preaching about how we should give back to God because He first gave to us.

The Catechism points to large families as an example of generosity. While not all persons can have large families, all can be generous with our time, talent and/or treasures. If all Catholics were more generous in whatever way God calls them, the world would be a better place.

 

[Bluegoat]

One thing that recently occurred to me, is that keeping track of this stuff is what deacons are for. But most parishes don’t have them, even on a part-time or volunteer basis. Maybe a new emphasis on the role of the deacon would be something to think about. Most priests just don’t have the time.

 

[DeannaMarie]

I am the mother of one of those large families that need help. I need help, not so much because I have a large family, but because I have high risk pregnancies, premature babies, and special needs children. For me, it really comes down to the practical–volunteers who can help clean the house, prepare the meals, do the laundry, wash the dishes, build shelves, call or visit regularly, transport kids to activities, provide childcare, etc. All these everyday, ordinary things are overwhelming. God Bless.

 

[leonie]

I am the mother of one of those large families that need help. I need help, not so much because I have a large family, but because I have high risk pregnancies, premature babies, and special needs children. For me, it really comes down to the practical–volunteers who can help clean the house, prepare the meals, do the laundry, wash the dishes, build shelves, call or visit regularly, transport kids to activities, provide childcare, etc. All these everyday, ordinary things are overwhelming. God Bless.

You’d be a perfect candidate for the Elizabeth’s ministry

elizabethministry.com/about/faq.html

A few years ago, we had a mom who developed terminal breast cancer when she was expecting her sixth child. With treatment, she lived three more years, but she had poor health the whole time and needed lots of help. I wish we would have had elizabeth ministry at our parish.

I think Kimberly Hahn does a ministry for young moms. She recruits college students who act as mother’s helpers. Wouldn’t that be a great ministry for every parish?

I really wish the older moms/grandmas would get more involved helping younger moms. One of my good friends has 9 kids–and several with special needs. An older mom at her parish stopped by one day, introduced herself, and took all the dirty laundry home. She delivered it the next day, clean and folded. wow. She did this for my friend for several years until her health became poor.

I have a friend with six kids under 10. Her husband works alot, and she often feels overwhelmed. I can’t help her much because I have my own brood, but just a little help from a retired mom or a college student would do so much for her.

A couple of other things that occur to me:

having family fees instead of per child fees. For example, our pastor loves his Mother’s Day brunch, but we can’t afford to go since it’s $8 a person. I think that’s ironic. Stuff like that comes up all the time. Recently, we had trouble paying our VBS fees. And, we never go to the parish festival because we can’t afford to feed our kids there.

providing childcare for women’s Bible studies. Or at least a nursery…one of my pet peeves is that our big parish doesn’t have a nursery, but we do have a Bride’s room!!

A system of offering meals to new moms. We have a large informal network among my homeschooling community. Everyone jumps in with meals to families with new babies. With one baby, I had 25 prepared dinners!!! I wish every new mom could have that–at least five meals. That would be a great ministry. We do funeral meals, don’t we? I bet we could do new baby meals.

Just lots of affirmation and love. I know that my dh and I get a lot of flack from his family over our family size. He gets razzed at work. And, I get odd looks and comments all the time. It would be so great just to have encouragement in our parish. Maybe more expectant mom blessings, kind words from the pulpit…a poster, whatever. My brood of 7 kids wouldn’t have been anything different in my mom’s generation, but now, we often feel like pariahs.

 

[PennitentMan]

Another thread has me thinking… what can the Church do in order to better support large families? I know all families need help from time to time, but I am specifically asking about large families because I think there is a particular burden on larger families in this culture. I know I have very little support from my own family because they think we are making a mistake in bringing more children into the world after some of the previous struggles we have faced. And I think that when a large family is struggling, there may be an underlying belief that they have brought the problems on themselves.

So, if the Church is going to be pro-life and against artificial ABC, then large families should be offered more practical support. Any thoughts or specific ideas?

There is very little that the Church does for large families or families with special needs children, or and sort of family requirements. And they are not really all that shy of admitting it. They use the age old scapegoat phrase of” The Lord will Provide” and happily go back to not caring.
The few groups that there are, are so widely spaced that they do not in any way form any sort of catch basin for all the families in need out there.

You hit the nail on the head when you said in your OP that if the church plans to be pro-families and anti-ABC, they need to get an infrastructure to support the flock that follow the church teachings.
When we ran into serious trouble whilst 100% following the teachings of the church, they just told us that there is nothing they can do and that “the Lord will provide”, and we should just carry on as we are going. This came from several priests.
No assistance or suggestions were offered…not for money, not for food, not for clothes, not for babysitting assistance, nothing. And when I found an agency like that they didn’t phone back.

The only smidgen of help we got in our time of need came from Mormons…who KNEW we were catholic.

I was very shocked and saddened by the obvious hypocrisy in this when I was confronted with it first-hand.

Don’t really know what else to say, except to expect no help from them, it’s not how they roll. But they’re very quick to send their annual collection envelopes, eh? (Sorry for that last comment, but it’s kinda valid)

 

[gardenswithkids]

There is very little that the Church does for large families or families with special needs children, or and sort of family requirements. And they are not really all that shy of admitting it. They use the age old scapegoat phrase of” The Lord will Provide” and happily go back to not caring.
The few groups that there are, are so widely spaced that they do not in any way form any sort of catch basin for all the families in need out there.

You hit the nail on the head when you said in your OP that if the church plans to be pro-families and anti-ABC, they need to get an infrastructure to support the flock that follow the church teachings.
When we ran into serious trouble whilst 100% following the teachings of the church, they just told us that there is nothing they can do and that “the Lord will provide”, and we should just carry on as we are going. This came from several priests.
No assistance or suggestions were offered…not for money, not for food, not for clothes, not for babysitting assistance, nothing. And when I found an agency like that they didn’t phone back.

The only smidgen of help we got in our time of need came from Mormons…who KNEW we were catholic.

I was very shocked and saddened by the obvious hypocrisy in this when I was confronted with it first-hand.

Don’t really know what else to say, except to expect no help from them, it’s not how they roll. But they’re very quick to send their annual collection envelopes, eh? (Sorry for that last comment, but it’s kinda valid)

Hi Pennitant Man,

I’m glad you made that last comment and that you posted here. It gives us the opportunity to discuss what contributed to you leaving the Church, (trying to keep it in context of the original thread question, of course.) I haven’t followed all your posts in your long history at CAF, but it was clear that something went on as you went from loyal Catholic to struggling Catholic to Agnostic/Atheist. When I read about your child with developmental delays on another thread, it seemed a little clearer.

Regarding your last comment, it relates to an earlier comment I made about everyone in the Church needing to give. How could you possibly hope to obtain financial assistance if priest and the Church didn’t have some type of system in place of requesting financial contributions from others? That’s part of the “infrastructure” you suggested the Church needs to develop, but it needs greater support. Those lovely Mormons who helped you out typically require mandatory tithing from their members–tax records often requested for proof of income. That’s why they could help you–and I believe that it was ultimately God helping you through those dedicated Mormons. Maybe you couldn’t give much if anything in those envelopes requesting contributions, but I can guarantee that there are other Catholics who could but who didn’t.

As to hypocrisy in the Church–of course! It can take one by surprise the first few times they encounter serious examples, but when we remember the Church teachings on concupiscence and sin, we can be less thrown off our balance when encountering sin in this world.

Yes, the Catholic Church certainly could use greater infrastructure to help promote openess to life. I’m sorry that you felt you encountered people who didn’t care. Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. Maybe they used to care but stopped caring because they found the problems of this world were greater than what they could solve alone and they met bitterness and resentment from many whom they tried to help. The Church teachings are not easy to follow. They never have been. The Church preaches Christ crucified–and our means to salvation involves picking up our cross and following Him.

St. Catherine of Sienna (youngest child from a VERY large family) reportedly had a vission where she was presented with a room of crosses to choose. Being a very holy person, she went to pick up the largest cross, but was told that cross was reserved for the parents of large families.

Pennitantman, you obviously have a heavy cross to bear. Even Jesus fell a few times while carrying His cross. You needed more support in carrying your cross than what the Church Millitant provided you. Maybe this won’t mean much to you as an agnostic, but if there’s a Catholic burried anywhere inside you, maybe it will. The Church on earth is only part of the Church. I find much of my support through devotion to the Saints in the Church Triumphant. May the Church Triumphant (especially St. Simon of Cyrene and St. Catherine of Sienna) interceed for you.

 

[mom24boys]

Wow! Great responses. I was disappointed when this thread didn’t get more action at first. It seems like the most active threads happen when somebody has a moral question or is struggling with living out a moral teaching. People have many answers about what other people should be doing; particularly if they are perceived to be in error. But when it comes to practical advice on how living out a moral teaching works in real life, people are much more silent. I guess its more fun to correct people (see the breastfeeding in mass threads or the threads about parents who can’t control their children). I’m sorry if I sound bitter, but I am struggling right now, honestly. Being a Catholic revert after having been raised in the evangelical/Protestant church, I am a bit shocked at how little support there is when somebody actually fully embraces the Church, particularly from inside the Church. I was expecting persecution from society at large outside the Church, but I wasn’t expecting such a could shoulder from within.

Gardenswithkids, you have given me some serious things to ponder in what you have said. These things struck me as sort of encouraging in a melancholic sort of way (does that make sense?):

St. Catherine of Sienna (youngest child from a VERY large family) reportedly had a vission where she was presented with a room of crosses to choose. Being a very holy person, she went to pick up the largest cross, but was told that cross was reserved for the parents of large families.

The Church on earth is only part of the Church. I find much of my support through devotion to the Saints in the Church Triumphant. May the Church Triumphant (especially St. Simon of Cyrene and St. Catherine of Sienna) interceed for you.

PennitantMan, I am sorry for your struggles. Thank you for your honest response. It helps to know that others do see some of the same things. I am sorry that your faith has been shaken so deeply, but I can see how that can happen. I will pray for you and all of the other struggling families.

 

[PennitentMan]

Hi Pennitant Man,

I’m glad you made that last comment and that you posted here. It gives us the opportunity to discuss what contributed to you leaving the Church, (trying to keep it in context of the original thread question, of course .) I haven’t followed all your posts in your long history at CAF, but it was clear that something went on as you went from loyal Catholic to struggling Catholic to Agnostic/Atheist. When I read about your child with developmental delays on another thread, it seemed a little clearer.

For the record, it’s not the reason why I left the church, but rather the catalyst that made me start to think independently about the so-called “Divinely inspired” rules that they prescribe.
The reason why I left was much more factual, evidence and reason based than one incident.

Regarding your last comment, it relates to an earlier comment I made about everyone in the Church needing to give. How could you possibly hope to obtain financial assistance if priest and the Church didn’t have some type of system in place of requesting financial contributions from others? That’s part of the “infrastructure” you suggested the Church needs to develop, but it needs greater support. Those lovely Mormons who helped you out typically require mandatory tithing from their members–tax records often requested for proof of income. That’s why they could help you–and I believe that it was ultimately God helping you through those dedicated Mormons. Maybe you couldn’t give much if anything in those envelopes requesting contributions, but I can guarantee that there are other Catholics who could but who didn’t.

We were in a super wealthy parish, and we always contributed as much as we could, most of the time more than I’d like to afford. Our parish spent money on expensive things like new stained glass windows, new steeples, new hedges and gardening, etc, of course with parishioner’s contributions (I mean where else would they get the money from right?) but then to not plough money back into the families that you “forced” to have children, but create lovely new hedges and windows is just wrong. I know I said “forced” but truly, for the folks that either NFP doesn’t work, or have special needs families, or big families (and I know that associations like Opus Dei REALLY encourage that, I was part of it), what other options are there if you don’t want to be condemned to hell by the celibate folks in black??

As to hypocrisy in the Church–of course! It can take one by surprise the first few times they encounter serious examples, but when we remember the Church teachings on concupiscence and sin, we can be less thrown off our balance when encountering sin in this world.

Yes, the Catholic Church certainly could use greater infrastructure to help promote openess to life. I’m sorry that you felt you encountered people who didn’t care. Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. Maybe they used to care but stopped caring because they found the problems of this world were greater than what they could solve alone and they met bitterness and resentment from many whom they tried to help. The Church teachings are not easy to follow. They never have been. The Church preaches Christ crucified–and our means to salvation involves picking up our cross and following Him.

Yup, the standard response. “It’s not our fault, the church is made up out of people, imperfect people. But it’s god’s teachings.” So with that statement they wash their hands of any guilt or any wrong doing, and turn their backs on the struggling families. “The church tells us what god commands, follow god, we can’t help.” That’s ****. People run the church and they should appropriately allocate funds or not prescribe the rules that get people in dire situations that are directly a result of them.

Pennitantman, you obviously have a heavy cross to bear.

Had would be the correct tense. We got out in time and took things into our own hands before we had to sell the house and go on welfare due to church teachings without supporting infrastructure.

The Church on earth is only part of the Church. I find much of my support through devotion to the Saints in the Church Triumphant. May the Church Triumphant (especially St. Simon of Cyrene and St. Catherine of Sienna) intercede for you.

Thanks for the nice sentiment, I appreciate you trying to help, but I just posted here to give my own thoughts on the OP. I’m done with the church, the teachings and the rules. And again, it’s not because of an incident like this, but this kind of thing was one of the catalysts for me to actually start thinking and examining things for myself.

Thanks for the response though, I know you mean well

PM.

 

[leonie]

now, i’m just sad…

 

[PennitentMan]

now, i’m just sad…

I hope it’s not for me…Don’t feel sad for me. I’m happy. I’m out of it.
Feel sad for the people who are stuck in the rule-loop and can’t do anything but get deeper into debt and emotional unstable-ness due to this.

Sorry, I don’t mean to derail the thread, I just wanted to give my (name removed by moderator)ut from my life experiences. Sorry if this is going too far already

 

[mom24boys]

PM, did you ever think about ways you could speak up and change the things you were seeing in your church? For myself, I am seriously thinking about the quote “be the change you want to see in the world” (or in the case “Church” rather than “world”). I know its not a Catholic quote, but I think it applies. I think the American Catholic Church is under serious attack (I say American because I am not fully informed about the Church in other parts of the world). I think that if we can find ways to support and strengthen the Catholic family, we would see change in our Church. I know you are now agnostic, I’m not trying to talk you out of your position… I suppose I’m just thinking out loud.

 

[PennitentMan]

PM, did you ever think about ways you could speak up and change the things you were seeing in your church? For myself, I am seriously thinking about the quote “be the change you want to see in the world” (or in the case “Church” rather than “world”). I know its not a Catholic quote, but I think it applies. I think the American Catholic Church is under serious attack (I say American because I am not fully informed about the Church in other parts of the world). I think that if we can find ways to support and strengthen the Catholic family, we would see change in our Church. I know you are now agnostic, I’m not trying to talk you out of your position… I suppose I’m just thinking out loud.

I totally hear you and understand. I actually tried to do that, but that’s the “Beauty” of the catholic teachings. They claim that it’s from God and nothing can change it. It’s immovable and you have to conform or be condemned. There are only those options…anything else is seen to go directly against god’s plan, his will and his teachings.
I spoke to my spiritual director, to the director of Opus Dei, to my parish priest, to several priests at the Archdiocese cathedral, as well as other families. The “official line” was unanimous.

There is no way of ever changing it or speaking up about it, without labeling yourself as a heretic. They have made the system impenetrable.

 

[mom24boys]

I hear you, too, PM. I’m not ready to throw away my faith, though. (I don’t mean that as an insult. I just mean that I see the same things you do, but I don’t see it as a reason to leave the faith.) In isolation, I see the beauty and the truth of the church’s teachings on being open to life and anti-ABC. But then when you put the teachings into the context of our anti-family society (and that attitude has made its way into the Church), you suddenly have a tremendous, almost impossible cross to bear.

 

[leonie]

I guess maybe I just have trouble relating to how difficult it is for some families to have big families. It’s been such a joy for me. It hasn’t be easy, of course.

I think it’s helped a lot to homeschool. We have a great, supportive network of friends. Actually, some our our friends who haven’t been blessed with many children feel a little out of sync because they haven’t been able to have more children. It’s like a reversal of societal standards.

We’ve also had material support and have been able to provide support materially to other families. I know I can count on numerous friends for babysitting, meals when in need, encouragement. With one baby, my dh was off work, and my friends threw us a huge baby shower. The theme was gift cards–so, I had everything I needed for the new baby and even groceries for several weeks. This was in addition to meals and groceries that people just dropped off.

So, I guess that all that support has made having more children doable. I do wish that every family could have that kind of community. It’s such a blessing. There’s no formal network for it. It’s just families helping families. It’s really more of a mindset.

We are training our kids in it, too. Our young teen girls make meals in their Little Flower group. And, my older kids pitch in and help when we babysit for another family. My dd has worked as a volunteer mother’s helper.

I’m really grateful for the the Church’s teaching on being open to life. I am sure that in any case, I would have had my first three children, but not my last four are here because I’ve embraced Church’s teaching. And, I can’t imagine a world without the joy of my last four children.

I think the op is on the right track, it really is the community help/support./encouragement that makes all the difference in turning burdens into joys. Maybe we should bring these ideas to our Pastors.

And, we should definitely be praying more for each other.

 

[mom24boys]

Leonie, it sounds like you have a great support network! We don’t really have that. Our problems come from a couple of different directions. 1) My family. We announced #5 to my family last weekend. My dad was pretty silent at first, but then the next day regained his composure and was pleasant and congratulatory. That was pretty good. But all I got from my mother was a comment about how the diaphragm is a great method of birth control. And she hasn’t said anything to me since. I am so sad and hurt by my mother’s attitude. We had some significant bumps in the road after #4, and my parents begrudgingly gave us some financial assistance. I guess they feel they have the right to be discouraged by another grandchild because they are afraid it might cost them something. Now, I don’t believe I have a “right” to my family’s money, but I feel like one of the purposes of a family is to help each other. I believe that if one day one of my grown children needed some financial assistance and I was in the position to, I would give it and not believe it entitled me to be involved in the birth control decisions. 2) I live in a rural area and I don’t have any Catholic friends or mentors. I think the average age in our parish is 100! We do homeschool and there are some large families in our area, but they are fundamentalist/Protestant. I suppose I could try and befriend some of those mothers, but I used to be one of them and I know what they think of Catholics! One of these families already tried to get my 12 yo son to go to Sunday School with them after they found out we were Catholic (without even asking our permission).

 

[DeannaMarie]

Leonie, I am jealous of the support that you have. I homeschooled for seven years. After my sixth child (with special needs) and seventh child (just 15 mos later) were born, I just could not do it any longer. I have received the coldest responses from these homeschooling families. One lady told me that she did not want to help me because my family was out of control and she did not want the same thing for her family.

I still believe in God and in God’s love and goodness, but I do not know what to think of the Church. It is especially difficult for me that the responses like the one above come from people who call themselves faithful (orthodox) Catholics. I am trying to understand where God stands in all of this.

PennitentMan, we have crossed paths before. I hope you don’t mind if I pray for you.

 

[mom24boys]

DeannaMarie, fwiw, I used to homeschool my 12 yo and couldn’t do it anymore (for reasons I won’t go into here). So, I sent him to school; one of the best decisions I ever made. I do homeschool my 6 yo and the responses I received after sending the oldest to school from “friends” in my homeschool group were always very cool, like I had sold out or something. I was never part of the clique because of that. (This is where we lived last year; we have since moved, so I have to make new friends anyway).

And I do want to say that I don’t want to overportray my burdens. There are times when I am with my children and husband that I feel I am the most blessed woman alive. And I feel like I have caught a glimpse of heaven. Its just that I have at other times profoundly experienced the “valley of tears” with very little support, and like DeannaMarie, wonder where God really stands in all of this.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I hope it’s not for me…Don’t feel sad for me. I’m happy. I’m out of it.
Feel sad for the people who are stuck in the rule-loop and can’t do anything but get deeper into debt and emotional unstable-ness due to this.

Sorry, I don’t mean to derail the thread, I just wanted to give my (name removed by moderator)ut from my life experiences. Sorry if this is going too far already

Well, don’t feel sorry for us stuck in the “rule-loop” . We are still expecting our 4th, so technically we aren’t quite large yet, but I am so grateful for everything I am learning in our Church. Its like everything on Earth is 2D, and then when you add the supernatural aspect the 3rd dimension appears and everything suddenly has value, both the crosses we face and the joy and happiness we can find in things that others stuck in the 2D can’t. See, the teachings of our Church, knowing the Truth, being able to apply it to my daily life, for me is far more valuable than any material/physical service I can receive from the Church. Our Church does teach the corporal and spiritual acts of mercy, and we as members of the Church should work on these, and see how we can help our neighbors, but how well or poorly the Catholics surrounding me practice these does not change the beauty, and more importantly the value, of knowing the Truth. Anyways, I don’t think its 'the Church makes us do all these things and then doesn’t help us", I think its more the Church shows us what the Truth is, and we embrace it, and sometimes that leads to crosses that are hard to bear, and we might need to seek help with those crosses, but our crosses are not in vain, the supernatural value of our crosses is amazing, and their value does not depend on how well others help us. Frankly, I have always wondered how people without the Church make it, seriously. I know I couldn’t. If more Catholics embraced these Truths, there probably would be more large families, and definitely there would be more support for these. I think it has to start with us members of the Church, not waiting for the priest/bishop to go out and figure out what each of us needs and solve it.

 

[DeannaMarie]

I think the Catholic Church is beautiful! And I love God with all my heart! I would not abandon either. The truth of the Church is not dependent on the faithfulness of her members, and the value of my suffering is not dependent on whether I receive help from others. But I am still disappointed. And I still need help.

What is the value of greater suffering? I asked this question before, and most posters objected to my idea that some people have greater suffering than others. But I still think that it is a fair question. In light of St. Catherine’s vision, God recognizes that some people (parents of large families) suffer more than other people. Is there a greater reward (on earth or in heaven) for the people who suffer more than for the people who suffer less (if both suffer well)?

Please pray for me. I REALLY need help.

God Bless!