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rtconstant
Guest
Yeah this stuff drives me nuts why is it we have to prove everything no matter how minute but they can just get away with this stuff?
- Status
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jimmy85
Guest
I dunno where that restorationism line came from lol
anyway I have always wondered and If any protestan can please answer my question.
Why is it that protestans claim that they have the same “traditions” of the primitive church and of the church fathers, If they dont believe in the priesthood??
Church “Fathers”, Priesthood?
I will be glad if someone can answer me that please.
Z
Zooey
Guest
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...anches.svg/659px-ChristianityBranches.svg.png
Well, this one has Anglicanism wrong at least. It should be branching off from the Catholic Church, with Methodism branching off of Anglicanism…
Well, this one has Anglicanism wrong at least. It should be branching off from the Catholic Church, with Methodism branching off of Anglicanism…
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rtconstant
Guest
That is true. I think they may have been trying to convey that but they unfortunately chose colors that were very clost. I think the line was trying to suggest a combined origin that is both Catholic and Protestant. Which I suppose one could argue for while the Church of England’s infrastructure and origin is from Catholicism they quickly adapted to Reform theology.
As you say Methodism came from the Church England. If memory serves Wesley actually never intended to split from the Anglican Church things just took on a life of their own. Which might be why the Methodists seem so unique amongst the evangelical and protestant denominations in terms of the theology and outlook.
S
Salamander
Guest
Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe the charts to be very helpful, and yes, some are inaccurate. But why can’t we all just use the Bible as our prooftext? The American Standard 1901 edition is an accurate Greek/Hebrew translation (not an opinion). Can’t someone be saved strictly from just following the Apostles’ doctrine? Or is “saved” a Protestantism? I am not a Protestant, nor a catholic, nor a Jew, or a member of any other religious body except the one established on the “Day of Pentacost” from Acts 2. I believe that the church was established with priests (each christian), deacons, elders (bishops, presbyters, pastors), teachers, preachers, members and evangelists. I believe this chart to be the most accurate one based on research done by others of the same belief. I was raised a Methodist but do not believe in Methodism. I am simply, a christian.
charlesdailey.net/ChurchHistOriginal1.pdf
charlesdailey.net/ChurchHistOriginal2.pdf
charlesdailey.net/ChurchHistOriginal1.pdf
charlesdailey.net/ChurchHistOriginal2.pdf
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Salamander
Guest
Uh, Early Christianity has never ended. Christianity should be practiced the same way it was in the Apostles’ Doctrine. These were the keys that Jesus spoke about to Peter. He gave the 12 the power to loose on earth and establish churches throughout the known world. Their doctrine did not change…men changed it.
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MrS
Guest
Would you be upset if I re-phrased the red part to read…Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe the charts to be very helpful, and yes, some are inaccurate. But why can’t we all just use the Bible as our prooftext? The American Standard 1901 edition is an accurate Greek/Hebrew translation (not an opinion). Can’t someone be saved strictly from just following the Apostles’ doctrine? Or is “saved” a Protestantism? I am not a Protestant, nor a catholic, nor a Jew, or a member of any other religious body except the one established on the “Day of Pentacost” from Acts 2. I believe that the church was established with priests (each christian), deacons, elders (bishops, presbyters, pastors), teachers, preachers, members and evangelists. I believe this chart to be the most accurate one based on research done by others of the same belief. I was raised a Methodist but do not believe in Methodism. I am simply, a christian.
charlesdailey.net/ChurchHistOriginal1.pdf
charlesdailey.net/ChurchHistOriginal2.pdf
But why can’t we all just use the Bible which came to us through the Catholic Church (originally called The Way in ACTS) as our prooftext?
By the way (no pun intended), there was only ONE The Way, with converts in many citities/churches. Only those obedient to the respective Bishop ( Apostle or his designee by the laying on of hands) were considered part of the Church.
The same holds true today… else they are simply faith communities.
.
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MrS
Guest
What is helpful about your links calling the Roman Catholic Church the mother of harlots. ??Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe the charts to be very helpful, and yes, some are inaccurate.
charlesdailey.net/ChurchHistOriginal1.pdf
charlesdailey.net/ChurchHistOriginal2.pdf
.
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jimmy85
Guest
Here there are some quotes of the chruch fathers the disciples of the apostoles.
St. Irenaeus, the great lover of the sacred books, maintains that whoever wishes to know the true must look at the tradition of the apostles. 29 He adds that even if the apostles had not left us the Scriptures, tradition would have been enough for our instruction and salvation. 30
Origen himself, who studied the Scriptures with so much love and passion and worked so much for their comprehension, openly states that only those must be believed as truths of faith that in no way depart from “ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition”. 31
thereby making tradition the interpretative norm of Scripture. Later, St. Augustine, who found his “delight” in meditation on Scripture, 32 stated this marvelously luminous and sound principle that again refers to tradition: “I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church had not led me to do so” 33.
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RSnider
Guest
By “prooftext” do you mean - you read a passage in the Bible and show how this passage agrees with your particular belief? Your interpretation?
This has been going on for almost 500 years. This has not brought unity, on the contrary, this has brought further and further division among Christians.
Even if we could all agree on a particular translation that would not remove the biggest obstacle. Yours/his/hers/my interpretation.
This is awkward - being saved by following doctrine. Do you mean “are we following correct Christian teachings if we follow the Apostles’ doctrine”? To that I say CERTAINLY!
But what were the Apostles’ doctrine on:
-Salvation (Is it by faith alone, by works alone, by faith working through love?).
-Is Baptism required for salvation?
-Should infants be baptized?
-When we “remember the Sabbath and keep it holy” is this on Saturday (Sabbath) or Sunday?
-Must we eat Christ’s flesh and drink his blood for salvation?
-What was their teaching on the Trinity?
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Church_Militant
Guest
I think you’d better check to see what the early church held and compare that to what you have been taught before you go condemning The Catholic Church.
Most of the people like you have bought into some preacher’s teaching and never bothered to research the actual objective histories to see if it’s true.
We Catholics are often accused of believing anything that the Church teaches, but it’s clear that that actually fits non-Catholics much more than it does my Catholic brothers and sisters.
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jimmy85
Guest
Saint Ireneaus a church Fatehr state that the Church is one and that it ahs teh same customs and rituals from germany to egipt from Spain to Gaul. He claimed there is jsut one christian church that is “universal” catholic.
adversus heresie chapter 10
Adversus Heresies
- As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shines everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth. Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrines different from these (for no one is greater than the Master); nor, on the other hand, will he who is deficient in power of expression inflict injury on the tradition. For the faith being ever one and the same, neither does one who is able at great length to discourse regarding it, make any addition to it, nor does one, who can say but little diminish it.
while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.
(end quote)
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jimmy85
Guest
It is remarkable to say that St ireneaus was the disciple of someone taht was the disciple of the Apostole St John.
and that he carrys the apostlic tradition
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Genesis315
Guest
I kinda like the music :dancing:
Hey, I don’t feel so bad–at least we’re not the closest to “DOOM”–the Eastern Orthodox are below us
Hey, I don’t feel so bad–at least we’re not the closest to “DOOM”–the Eastern Orthodox are below us
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Mike_Brick
Guest
S
Salamander
Guest
This is awkward - being saved by following doctrine. Do you mean “are we following correct Christian teachings if we follow the Apostles’ doctrine”? To that I say CERTAINLY!
Good, then why add to the doctrine of the Apostles?
But what were the Apostles’ doctrine on:
-Salvation (Is it by faith alone, by works alone, by faith working through love?).
OBJECTIONS TO GOD’S PLAN OF SALVATION CONSIDERED Bert Thompson, Ph.D. apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/planofsa.pdf
“The Bible teaches quite clearly that we are not saved by works (Titus 3:4-7; Ephesians 2:9).Yet the Bible teaches just as clearly that we are saved by works (James 2:14- 24). Since inspiration guarantees that the Scriptures never will contradict themselves, it is obvious that two different kinds of works are under consideration in these passages.
The New Testament mentions at least four kinds of works: (1) works of the Law of Moses (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:20); (2)works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21); (3)works of merit (Titus 3:4-7); and (4) works resulting from obedience of faith (James 2:14-24). This last category often is referred to as “works of God.” This phrase does not mean works performed by God; rather, the meaning is “works required and approved by God”(Thayer, 1958, p. 248; cf. Jackson, 1997, 2:47).Consider the following example from Jesus ’statements
in John 6:27-29: “Work not for the food which perisheth,but for the food which abideth unto eternal life…”They said therefore unto him, “What must we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
Within this context, Christ made it clear that there are works that humans must do to receive eternal life…It therefore follows that if one is saved without any type of works, then he is saved without faith, because faith is a work. Such a conclusion would throw the Bible into hopeless confusion!”
-Is Baptism required for salvation?
*"What do we find “in Christ?” Paul, in the book of Ephesians, used the phrase multiple times in chapter one. He stated that “every spiritual blessing” is found in Christ (1:3). He also noted that “forgiveness of sins” is found only in Christ (vs. 7). In the book of Romans, he further stated that “redemption” (3:24) and “eternal life” (6:23) are located in Christ. The inspired apostle told the young man Timothy that “salvation” is in Christ (2 Timothy 2:10). Paul obviously wanted his readers to understand that everything good in the spiritual realm is found in Christ alone. When discussing things outside of Christ, Paul painted a grim picture of a place without hope and without God (Ephesians 2:12).
After looking at the phrase “in Christ,” the question arises: How does a person get into Christ? It is interesting to note that the New Testament specifically mentions water baptism as one essential element that puts a person into Christ. Romans 6:3 states: “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” (emp. added). And Galatians 3:27 declares: “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (emp. added). While some have incorrectly attempted to claim that the baptism mentioned in these two verses refers to Holy Spirit baptism, many religious people have not resorted to this faulty line of reasoning (Miller, 2003)."* Kyle Butt, M.A., apologeticspress.org/articles/3106
-Should infants be baptized?
…find it for me and we’ll both know
-When we “remember the Sabbath and keep it holy” is this on Saturday (Sabbath) or Sunday?
“If the word sabbaton in passages such as Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:2, and Acts 20:7 actually denoted “the Sabbath day,” rather than “a period of seven days,” one would expect some of the foremost Bible translations to translate it thusly. Every major English translation of the Bible, however, translates mia ton sabbaton as “the first day of the week.” Why? Because scholars are aware of the Jewish method of counting the days of the week by using the Sabbath as a reference point.” “The First Day of the Week”
by Eric Lyons, M.Min. apologeticspress.org/articles/3157
-Must we eat Christ’s flesh and drink his blood for salvation?
*“Shortly before His death, Jesus observed the Old Testament feast of unleavened bread. In the process, He instituted the Lord’s Supper (1 Corinthians 11:20), and told His disciples that this “communion” (1 Corinthians 10:16) would be observed in the kingdom (Matthew 26:29). The bread and the fruit of the vine were to function as symbols for the body and blood of Jesus that was offered on the cross as a sacrifice for the world.” *
Sunday and the Lord’s Supper
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.
-What was their teaching on the Trinity?
Good, then why add to the doctrine of the Apostles?
But what were the Apostles’ doctrine on:
-Salvation (Is it by faith alone, by works alone, by faith working through love?).
OBJECTIONS TO GOD’S PLAN OF SALVATION CONSIDERED Bert Thompson, Ph.D. apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/planofsa.pdf
“The Bible teaches quite clearly that we are not saved by works (Titus 3:4-7; Ephesians 2:9).Yet the Bible teaches just as clearly that we are saved by works (James 2:14- 24). Since inspiration guarantees that the Scriptures never will contradict themselves, it is obvious that two different kinds of works are under consideration in these passages.
The New Testament mentions at least four kinds of works: (1) works of the Law of Moses (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:20); (2)works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21); (3)works of merit (Titus 3:4-7); and (4) works resulting from obedience of faith (James 2:14-24). This last category often is referred to as “works of God.” This phrase does not mean works performed by God; rather, the meaning is “works required and approved by God”(Thayer, 1958, p. 248; cf. Jackson, 1997, 2:47).Consider the following example from Jesus ’statements
in John 6:27-29: “Work not for the food which perisheth,but for the food which abideth unto eternal life…”They said therefore unto him, “What must we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
Within this context, Christ made it clear that there are works that humans must do to receive eternal life…It therefore follows that if one is saved without any type of works, then he is saved without faith, because faith is a work. Such a conclusion would throw the Bible into hopeless confusion!”
-Is Baptism required for salvation?
*"What do we find “in Christ?” Paul, in the book of Ephesians, used the phrase multiple times in chapter one. He stated that “every spiritual blessing” is found in Christ (1:3). He also noted that “forgiveness of sins” is found only in Christ (vs. 7). In the book of Romans, he further stated that “redemption” (3:24) and “eternal life” (6:23) are located in Christ. The inspired apostle told the young man Timothy that “salvation” is in Christ (2 Timothy 2:10). Paul obviously wanted his readers to understand that everything good in the spiritual realm is found in Christ alone. When discussing things outside of Christ, Paul painted a grim picture of a place without hope and without God (Ephesians 2:12).
After looking at the phrase “in Christ,” the question arises: How does a person get into Christ? It is interesting to note that the New Testament specifically mentions water baptism as one essential element that puts a person into Christ. Romans 6:3 states: “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” (emp. added). And Galatians 3:27 declares: “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (emp. added). While some have incorrectly attempted to claim that the baptism mentioned in these two verses refers to Holy Spirit baptism, many religious people have not resorted to this faulty line of reasoning (Miller, 2003)."* Kyle Butt, M.A., apologeticspress.org/articles/3106
-Should infants be baptized?
…find it for me and we’ll both know
-When we “remember the Sabbath and keep it holy” is this on Saturday (Sabbath) or Sunday?
“If the word sabbaton in passages such as Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:2, and Acts 20:7 actually denoted “the Sabbath day,” rather than “a period of seven days,” one would expect some of the foremost Bible translations to translate it thusly. Every major English translation of the Bible, however, translates mia ton sabbaton as “the first day of the week.” Why? Because scholars are aware of the Jewish method of counting the days of the week by using the Sabbath as a reference point.” “The First Day of the Week”
by Eric Lyons, M.Min. apologeticspress.org/articles/3157
-Must we eat Christ’s flesh and drink his blood for salvation?
*“Shortly before His death, Jesus observed the Old Testament feast of unleavened bread. In the process, He instituted the Lord’s Supper (1 Corinthians 11:20), and told His disciples that this “communion” (1 Corinthians 10:16) would be observed in the kingdom (Matthew 26:29). The bread and the fruit of the vine were to function as symbols for the body and blood of Jesus that was offered on the cross as a sacrifice for the world.” *
Sunday and the Lord’s Supper
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.
-What was their teaching on the Trinity?
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
Awful lot of stuff in post #37 and others Salamander…one at a time works best. I do see that you say you believe in “His will” and not the “Catholic will.” I’m sorry, but that is a false dichotomy. Feel free to PM me with any single subject at a time, I’d be happy to explain. Or you could start another thread addressing a specific issue! :tiphat:
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RSnider
Guest
Salamander - you gave interpretations, and some of it was not very clear. How do you know that these interpretations are what the Apostles taught. We could go back and forth debating who is correct on these interpretations, it most likely would not change your mind.
Follow the Apostles to the early Church Fathers - it is not an invisible Church. The early Church Fathers handed down the Apostles’ teachings.
The early Church - including Popes and others - sifted through all of the writings and determined that the 73 books of the bible that we have today are inspired.
It seems very presumptuous and convenient to claim that the Church - the very Church that suffered to retain, and fight to keep, and live to transmit these teachings to us today went into error for 1000+ years.
Read the Early Church Fathers, they were CATHOLIC
Follow the Apostles to the early Church Fathers - it is not an invisible Church. The early Church Fathers handed down the Apostles’ teachings.
The early Church - including Popes and others - sifted through all of the writings and determined that the 73 books of the bible that we have today are inspired.
It seems very presumptuous and convenient to claim that the Church - the very Church that suffered to retain, and fight to keep, and live to transmit these teachings to us today went into error for 1000+ years.
Read the Early Church Fathers, they were CATHOLIC
S
Salamander
Guest
But why aren’t they listed in Paul’s writings? Was it not important as to the instrumentation of the worship? If not, then they could have beaten against a rock and made music, right? Do you see the logic here. No mention of mechanical, means no mechanical means. 
Acts 17: 24-27 (24) The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; (25) neither is he served by men’s hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; (26) and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation; (27) that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us…
a simple christian…devoted in brotherly love- Status