Supposedly accurate chart of "Church History"

[Salamander]

There was a very good roundtable discussion on the so called Church of Christ a week or so ago on the Journey Home on EWTN…they claim they were the church founded by Jesus, but of course there is a huge hole in their history since it took them 1800 years to organize…The AoG folks wouldn’t be happy with their style of church service.

Peace to All

Have you read how the Campbells reached their understanding of scripture and the church?

 

[holy_wood]

**

Originally posted by Salamander:

But why aren’t they listed in Paul’s writings? Was it not important as to the instrumentation of the worship? If not, then they could have beaten against a rock and made music, right? Do you see the logic here. No mention of mechanical, means no mechanical means.** ****
The Epistles are letters to specific congregations that were usually sent to correct or clarify a doctrinal issue. Singing the psalms is not usually an area of huge concern. Wheather one is saved by faith alone or faith working in love is.

But lets look at this statement you made and let us reason together and follow it to its logical end.

Do you see the logic here. No mention of mechanical, means no mechanical means.

Your not Catholic so I assume your o.k. with contraception.
But according to your statement above if its not mentioned in the Bible then its a no, no. So my friend show me a single case in scripture of a Christian using contraception or any Christian denomination teaching that it was o.k. before 1930 then I will convert. If you can’t I hope you see the flaw in your logic and how HYPOCRITICAL IT IS.

or

Show me where in the Bible it says to use “The Bible”
Yes, it says scripture, but since the Bible of a collection of letters and books written over decades in opposite ends of the Earth, every mention of scripture was in reference to the Old Testamen( afterall Jesus and the Apostles were Jewish, remember). Thus, the Bible itself is a tradition and to you it must be a no, no.

or

Tell me why don’t you adhere to Apostolic Succession when the Bible tells you to.
1 Thess. 5:12-13

And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

]

An authority bestowed upon then by the Apostles and thus Christ, not by there own will.
2 Cor. 10:8

For even if I should boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord gave usa] for edification and not for your destruction, I shall not be ashamed—

Acts 17: 24-27 (24) The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands

*; (25) neither is he served by men’s hands,

Wow, I’ve never met someone from a congregation that met on a street corner every Sunday. That must be interesting.

Sarcasm aside, The Early Christians first met in the Jewish Synagogues ( He was first and foremost the Jewish messaiah afterall). Then when the pharisees kicked them out they met in there homes and then when the Romans and men like Paul (before his conversion) went and burned down there homes or pulled them out and killed them, they held mass in the catacobms.

But we Catholics go to mass for one important reason. To eat of the flesh and drink of the blood or the God of mercy.

Go to scripturecatholic.com to learn more about the way, the truth and the light.

 

[LilyM]

It is very interesting to me that you mention instruments in worship. Why didn’t Jesus us an instrument when he entered the temple or synagogue to preach and to teach. It would have been logical since He Himself would have made perfect music since He could do anything physically or spiritually. You see, musical instrumentation was available during the early church times of Paul and Peter, etc. However, no mention is there in Pauls instructions to the church concerning the use of saltries, harps, or drums. Would King David have been insulted?

Does it say anywhere that Jesus DIDN’T use an instrument? There’s mention of songs or psalms being sung after the Last Supper in any event - so he wasn’t unmusical!

 

[MarcoPolo]

But why aren’t they listed in Paul’s writings? Was it not important as to the instrumentation of the worship?

Instruments are used in worship. Read Revelation 5 for instance…there are others in Revelation. How did you guys get on this subject in a thread of a chart of how old certain churches are?

 

[MrS]

Instruments are used in worship. Read Revelation 5 for instance…there are others in Revelation. How did you guys get on this subject in a thread of a chart of how old certain churches are?

cuz it’s that same old song and dance…

when you can’t convince, confuse. When you reject part or all of the Catholic Church, its history, its doctrines, its foundation by Christ Himself,… it only stands to reason that a different direction is then taken by those who argue against Her.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

But why aren’t they listed in Paul’s writings? Was it not important as to the instrumentation of the worship? If not, then they could have beaten against a rock and made music, right? Do you see the logic here. No mention of mechanical, means no mechanical means. ​

Because Paul said “sing psalms” and the psalms said things like:
Give praise to the Lord on the harp; sing to him with the psaltery, the instrument of ten strings.
To thee, O God my God, I will give praise upon the harp
For I will also confess to thee thy truth with the instruments of psaltery: O God, I will sing to thee with the harp, thou holy one of Israel.
Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel: the pleasant psaltery with the harp.
Upon an instrument of ten strings, upon the psaltery: with a canticle upon the harp.
Praise him with sound of trumpet: praise him with psaltery and harp.

Paul didn’t NEED to mention musical instruments because they already KNEW to use them.

 

[Salamander]

Gentlemen and Ladies, I have read many accounts of “church history” from you, the “early church fathers” and others. Here is a reference from one of the men in “Our Brotherhood”.

pb.org/pbdocs/music.html#The%20Argument%20From%20Silence%20is%20Invalid​

…and here is a reference to a debate between a “church of Christ” scholar and “catholic” scholar.

padfield.com/debates/greeson_1.html

…sorry, I cannot answer all of you at once…​

wc3.org/history/ (=) a fairly accurate description of how “the church” history began in America.

“See also the recent accurate and fair assessment written by a Roman Catholic: Richard M. Tristano, The Origins of the Restoration Movement: An Intellectual History (Atlanta: Glenmary Research Center, 1988).”​

Notice how many of these men did not even know each other and still came to the concensus that New Testament scripture (God breathed) is the authority unto salvation?​

*Matthew 28:16-20, "But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (NASV) * "]“1 Peter 3:15: but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;” (NASV)​

1 Cor. 9:16 "For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.​

Nothing more than a christian folks, and nothing less.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Nothing more than a christian folks, and nothing less.

Sorry Sal…the logic in your links are not only some writer’s opinions, but quite poor. One says because musical instruments are used in heaven we shouldn’t use them here? You say you have read Catholic history, but apparently are not aware of the teaching of where the worship described in Revelation is taking place… (read The Lamb’s Supper…as long as we’re sharing things written by someone else).

You ask where Paul says we should use instruments. Where does he say we shouldn’t? I’ve been to masses that have had instruments and some that haven’t. So what. Does Paul say you should scratch your itch? I don’t see it anywhere. Do you scratch your itches? What kind of nonsense is this musical instrument issue?

You throw out epic posts and then say you can’t answer all of us at once? If these are your discussion tactics, you are in the wrong place. It’s a quick way to get on someone’s “ignore” list.

 

[JesseW]

That seems to be a hallmark of Protestant preaching - lots of Paul, very little Jesus.

---

I would normally be shocked at this statement. Especially since the Protestants I know speak of nothing but Jesus (including me). BUT, after having looked at this thread and others, I can’t help but feel frustrated and sad about the attacks you are all facing from Protestants about history, your doctrine, etc. Even on your own forum!

I don’t know if this helps, but I am truly sorry for what the Reformed Denominations throw at you. I hear anti-Catholic talk all the time from a few at my Church. More and more, people are beginning to silence them, including myself, but it still persists. It’s as if we have forgotten 2 Timothy 2:14. But then again, that is preaching Paul:doh2: Ha!

 

[RSnider]

Salamander, below is an excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (paragraphs 104-107) regarding Sacred Scripture.

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”. “In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them.”

II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”

“For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.”

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. “To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.”

107 The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

This should leave no doubt on how the Catholic Church regards the Scriptures.

We also know that not everything that Christ did or the Apostles taught is in Scripture.

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2Thes 2:15)

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. (2Thes 3:6)

We then need to look at the Scriptures…

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. (Matthew 18:17)

Christ indicates that the church has authority, especially in regards to truth.

Remember what St. Paul said.

if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. (1 Tim 3:15)

For us moderns it could be rendered as - the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and protector/defender of the truth.

The “church history chart” indicates some invisible church that lasted for 1000+ years. For 1000+ years how would “Joe/Jane” Christian go to the church and listen to the church (Matt 18:17) if it is invisible? How can an invisible church teach truth if know one can find the church?

 

[MrS]

I would normally be shocked at this statement. Especially since the Protestants I know speak of nothing but Jesus (including me). BUT, after having looked at this thread and others, I can’t help but feel frustrated and sad about the attacks you are all facing from Protestants about history, your doctrine, etc. Even on your own forum!

I don’t know if this helps, but I am truly sorry for what the Reformed Denominations throw at you. I hear anti-Catholic talk all the time from a few at my Church. More and more, people are beginning to silence them, including myself, but it still persists. It’s as if we have forgotten 2 Timothy 2:14. But then again, that is preaching Paul:doh2: Ha!

Welcome to the CA Forums… may your stay be long and prosperous. In a few short posts you have presented youself as a rational and kind man…

Thanks for your sympathy… but most here are rather “thick-skinned” for the attacks made on Catholicism. You will eventually notice that when a Catholic posts, and then the post is answered or attacked by another… there are often many Catholics who are capable of responding.

That is surly a sign of having Truth to rely on.

.

 

[MrS]

Notice how many of these men did not even know each other and still came to the concensus that New Testament scripture (God breathed) is the authority unto salvation?

Nothing more than a christian folks, and nothing less.

catholicintl.com/debate/fiasco.html

This link will lead you to a debate on your statement of “Sola NT”. At best the Church of Christ debater is sincere in his errors. At worst he is arrogant and mean-spirited.

In the chart of Church History, we allow for non-churches to appear everywhere. They are faith communities who have, over time, simply borrowed the word church, and attached it to their names.

A true chart of “Church History” would thus only show the Catholic Church over the last 2000+ years. No others are “churches”

.

 

[Salamander]

Sorry Sal…the logic in your links are not only some writer’s opinions, but quite poor. One says because musical instruments are used in heaven we shouldn’t use them here? You say you have read Catholic history, but apparently are not aware of the teaching of where the worship described in Revelation is taking place… (read The Lamb’s Supper…as long as we’re sharing things written by someone else).

You ask where Paul says we should use instruments. Where does he say we shouldn’t? I’ve been to masses that have had instruments and some that haven’t. So what. Does Paul say you should scratch your itch? I don’t see it anywhere. Do you scratch your itches? What kind of nonsense is this musical instrument issue?

You throw out epic posts and then say you can’t answer all of us at once? If these are your discussion tactics, you are in the wrong place. It’s a quick way to get on someone’s “ignore” list.

Paul, Peter, James, John, Andrew, etc., never said we could use instruments. Just because something is left out of scripture, doesn’t mean we can do that thing (under who’s authority?).

I could use the example of Noah using oak instead of gopher wood, but that won’t float!

When you say the logic is “quite poor”, are you denying my opinion is not sound or that of the writer’s-he uses references too as I do; and so do you? Not everyone trusts in his own knowledge? I search the scriptures to know the truth and when a minister or preacher or someone else makes a statement on scripture, I look it up.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Paul, Peter, James, John, Andrew, etc., never said we could use instruments. Just because something is left out of scripture, doesn’t mean we can do that thing (under who’s authority?).

I could use the example of Noah using oak instead of gopher wood, but that won’t float!

When you say the logic is “quite poor”, are you denying my opinion is not sound or that of the writer’s-he uses references too as I do; and so do you? Not everyone trusts in his own knowledge? I search the scriptures to know the truth and when a minister or preacher or someone else makes a statement on scripture, I look it up.

I don’t know if you saw this on page 1 so I’ll repeat:

Paul said “sing psalms” and the psalms said things like:
Give praise to the Lord on the harp; sing to him with the psaltery, the instrument of ten strings.
To thee, O God my God, I will give praise upon the harp
For I will also confess to thee thy truth with the instruments of psaltery: O God, I will sing to thee with the harp, thou holy one of Israel.
Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel: the pleasant psaltery with the harp.
Upon an instrument of ten strings, upon the psaltery: with a canticle upon the harp.
Praise him with sound of trumpet: praise him with psaltery and harp.

Paul didn’t NEED to mention using musical instruments because they already KNEW to use them when singing psalms. They always sang psalms with musical accompaniment.

 

[Milliardo]

Paul, Peter, James, John, Andrew, etc., never said we could use instruments. Just because something is left out of scripture, doesn’t mean we can do that thing (under who’s authority?).

Pixie Dust does make a very good point regarding the Psalms; even in Old Testament times, worship of God had musical instruments in them. So where is this notion of having no musical instruments coming from?

 

[Milliardo]

But why can’t we all just use the Bible as our prooftext?

Considering 30,000+ other denominations also use the Bible as proof text? And they can’t even go into agreement which of the myriad of interpretations is correct?

Can’t someone be saved strictly from just following the Apostles’ doctrine?

Which Church do you think follows the Apostles’ doctrines?

I am not a Protestant, nor a catholic, nor a Jew, or a member of any other religious body except the one established on the “Day of Pentacost” from Acts 2.

There is only one Church established at Pentecost. That Church has been around for 2,000 years. The chart above should give one a clue as to what Church that is.

 

[Salamander]

I don’t know if you saw this on page 1 so I’ll repeat:

Paul said “sing psalms” and the psalms said things like:
Give praise to the Lord on the harp; sing to him with the psaltery, the instrument of ten strings.
To thee, O God my God, I will give praise upon the harp
For I will also confess to thee thy truth with the instruments of psaltery: O God, I will sing to thee with the harp, thou holy one of Israel.
Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel: the pleasant psaltery with the harp.
Upon an instrument of ten strings, upon the psaltery: with a canticle upon the harp.
Praise him with sound of trumpet: praise him with psaltery and harp.

Paul didn’t NEED to mention using musical instruments because they already KNEW to use them when singing psalms. They always sang psalms with musical accompaniment.

“Some say instrumental music is authorized because there will be musical instruments in heaven. We read in Revelation 15:2, “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.” Those having the victory over the beast have “the harps of God.” But are these literal harps? Revelation is a book filled with symbols and figurative language. Is there a literal “sea of glass mingled with fire”? If the harps must be literal, then the sea of glass mingled with fire must be literal also. Harps in heaven really have nothing to do with the worship which God has specified for the church today, though. Jesus said, “in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven” (Matthew 22:30). Does no marriage in heaven mean that there should be no marriage today? We cannot go back to the old covenant, nor to the future in heaven to authorize instrumental music.”

housetohouse.com/hth/biblequestions/archive/question0059.htm (of this I agree)

 

[DixiesFinest]

Well the chart is silly and chalk full of ignorance, so in other words you’re looking at the views of any restortationist protestant church. It’s a bit on the extreme side, most mainstream evangelicals no longer say Roman Catholics (or Eastern Orthodox if they’re aware we exist) are automatically going to hell. Though 30 years ago this would have been very mainstream.

I dont think any protestants realize the Eastern Orthodox Church exists…thats why there are no branches or commentary on that line.

 

[Milliardo]

“Some say instrumental music is authorized because there will be musical instruments in heaven. We read in Revelation 15:2, “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.” Those having the victory over the beast have “the harps of God.” But are these literal harps? Revelation is a book filled with symbols and figurative language. Is there a literal “sea of glass mingled with fire”? If the harps must be literal, then the sea of glass mingled with fire must be literal also. Harps in heaven really have nothing to do with the worship which God has specified for the church today, though. Jesus said, “in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven” (Matthew 22:30). Does no marriage in heaven mean that there should be no marriage today? We cannot go back to the old covenant, nor to the future in heaven to authorize instrumental music.”

It might be literal or figurative; however, seeing as the Psalms and worship and praise of God in the Old Testament were filled with music, then it shows us that the heavenly worship would be full of music as well. It is amusing how one tries to duck the Psalms, and how worship was in the Old Testament. There is also a case wherein Jesus, in going to the Temple, was familiar with music in worship. There seems to be no case, then, for music not to be in worship.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

“Some say instrumental music is authorized because there will be musical instruments in heaven. We read in Revelation 15:2, “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.” Those having the victory over the beast have “the harps of God.” But are these literal harps? Revelation is a book filled with symbols and figurative language. Is there a literal “sea of glass mingled with fire”? If the harps must be literal, then the sea of glass mingled with fire must be literal also. Harps in heaven really have nothing to do with the worship which God has specified for the church today, though. Jesus said, “in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven” (Matthew 22:30). Does no marriage in heaven mean that there should be no marriage today? We cannot go back to the old covenant, nor to the future in heaven to authorize instrumental music.”

housetohouse.com/hth/biblequestions/archive/question0059.htm (of this I agree)

Funny, that’s not what I said in my post at all. I don’t remember even mentioning Revelation. Not sure why you chose to quote my post and then quote someone else saying “Some say…” when that’s not even close to what I said.

Again, Paul said “sing psalms” and everyone who read Paul’s letters already knew that psalms were sung with musical instruments. In fact, several of the psalms begin with instruction of which instrument should be used!

If I say I’m going to bake some bread, do I necessarily need to mention that I’ll be using some type of an oven?