Supposedly accurate chart of "Church History"

[Salamander]

Funny, that’s not what I said in my post at all. I don’t remember even mentioning Revelation. Not sure why you chose to quote my post and then quote someone else saying “Some say…” when that’s not even close to what I said.

Again, Paul said “sing psalms” and everyone who read Paul’s letters already knew that psalms were sung with musical instruments. In fact, several of the psalms begin with instruction of which instrument should be used!

If I say I’m going to bake some bread, do I necessarily need to mention that I’ll be using some type of an oven?

Someone else mentioned it earlier (Revelation).

But it is not the same as saying because it says “psalms” to use the instrument. Why have a New Covenant if the Old Covenant has not passed? Why not have temples with “the Holy of Holies in them?” Or why not segregate worshipers as the Jews did in their synagogues? Paul, Peter, James, John, etc., are only writing what they have been told to write from the Holy Spirit. (See Romans 7)

“First, Walter Bauer’s highly respected lexicon, revised by Frederick Danker in 2000, indicates that even in the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Old Testament that appeared about 250 years before Christ was born), it “is usually the case” that psallo is translated as only “to sing” (2000, p. 1096). In Henry Thayer’s often-quoted Greek lexicon, he noted that by the time the events recorded in the New Testament took place, psallo meant “to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song” (1962, p. 675). Finally, Sophocles, a native Greek and for thirty-eight years a professor of the Greek language at Harvard University, declared (after examining a plethora of secular and religious historical documents) that there was not a single example of psallo ever used in the time of Christ that involved or implied the use of an instrument; rather, it always meant to chant or sing religious hymns (see Kurfees, 1999, p. 47).”

apologeticspress.org/articles/1774
The Meaning of “Psallo” in the New Testament
by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Someone else mentioned it earlier (Revelation).

Then perhaps it might have been better to put that quote in a reply to them. You confused me.

But it is not the same as saying because it says “psalms” to use the instrument. Why have a New Covenant if the Old Covenant has not passed? Why not have temples with “the Holy of Holies in them?” Or why not segregate worshipers as the Jews did in their synagogues? Paul, Peter, James, John, etc., are only writing what they have been told to write from the Holy Spirit. (See Romans 7)

Ah, I see the problem now. You think the entire OT is null and void? Jesus came to fulfill the OT, not totally eliminate it.

Can you point me to a passage to support your notion that musical instruments are prohibited?

“First, Walter Bauer’s highly respected lexicon, revised by Frederick Danker in 2000, indicates that even in the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Old Testament that appeared about 250 years before Christ was born), it “is usually the case” that psallo is translated as only “to sing” (2000, p. 1096). In Henry Thayer’s often-quoted Greek lexicon, he noted that by the time the events recorded in the New Testament took place, psallo meant “to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song” (1962, p. 675). Finally, Sophocles, a native Greek and for thirty-eight years a professor of the Greek language at Harvard University, declared (after examining a plethora of secular and religious historical documents) that there was not a single example of psallo ever used in the time of Christ that involved or implied the use of an instrument; rather, it always meant to chant or sing religious hymns (see Kurfees, 1999, p. 47).”

apologeticspress.org/articles/1774
The Meaning of “Psallo” in the New Testament
by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

According to the BJU Linked Word Project (handy online tool, you click on any word and it tells you the Greek or Hebrew)
Eph 5: 19 - Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

psalms - psalmos - a striking, twanging

1. of a striking the chords of a musical instrument
2. of a pious song, a psalm

Col 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

again, psalms - psalmos

Looked up psallo as well:

1. to pluck off, pull out
2. to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang
   1. to touch or strike the chord, to twang the strings of a musical instrument so that they gently vibrate
   2. to play on a stringed instrument, to play, the harp, etc.
   3. to sing to the music of the harp
   4. in the NT to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song

Nothing in that definition expressly forbids or exludes the use of a musical instrument, “to celebrate the praises of God in song” doesn’t exclude musical instruments. If it said, “To celebrate the praises of God by singing a capella” I *might *be persuaded to believe you.

 

[Salamander]

Then perhaps it might have been better to put that quote in a reply to them. You confused me.

Ah, I see the problem now. You think the entire OT is null and void? Jesus came to fulfill the OT, not totally eliminate it.

Can you point me to a passage to support your notion that musical instruments are prohibited?

According to the BJU Linked Word Project (handy online tool, you click on any word and it tells you the Greek or Hebrew)
Eph 5: 19 - Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

psalms - psalmos - a striking, twanging

1. of a striking the chords of a musical instrument
2. of a pious song, a psalm

Col 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

again, psalms - psalmos

Looked up psallo as well:

1. to pluck off, pull out
2. to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang
   1. to touch or strike the chord, to twang the strings of a musical instrument so that they gently vibrate
   2. to play on a stringed instrument, to play, the harp, etc.
   3. to sing to the music of the harp
   4. in the NT to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song

Nothing in that definition expressly forbids or exludes the use of a musical instrument, “to celebrate the praises of God in song” doesn’t exclude musical instruments. If it said, “To celebrate the praises of God by singing a capella” I *might *be persuaded to believe you.

“Sing”, “lips”, “making melody in your hearts”, where are the instruments? The lips and heart, voices…these are instruments designed by God to praise Him. What if I had no hands, no feet, and no way of plucking, playing, striking or klinking a harp, horn, or drum. Would I be worshipping correctly? Certainly Jesus would have picked up the harp or something and said, “here is the harp, let us sing a hymn”. Would He not have been the best at it, or the horn, or the strings. I think if you can find the word “instrument” or “play” in the New Testament, then yep, I’ll believe you. And no, we have not completely done away with the Old Testament…He fulfilled the Law and His worshippers will worship “in spirit and in truth”.​

Lots of instruments in churches now…I was once a Methodist…now I’m Free!

 

[MrS]

"

And no, we have not completely done away with the Old Testament…

Interesting… and revealing… comment.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

“Sing”, “lips”, “making melody in your hearts”, where are the instruments? The lips and heart, voices…these are instruments designed by God to praise Him. What if I had no hands, no feet, and no way of plucking, playing, striking or klinking a harp, horn, or drum. Would I be worshipping correctly? Certainly Jesus would have picked up the harp or something and said, “here is the harp, let us sing a hymn”. Would He not have been the best at it, or the horn, or the strings. I think if you can find the word “instrument” or “play” in the New Testament, then yep, I’ll believe you. And no, we have not completely done away with the Old Testament…He fulfilled the Law and His worshippers will worship “in spirit and in truth”.​

Lots of instruments in churches now…I was once a Methodist…now I’m Free!

If you had no hands, we wouldn’t be having this circular conversation! OF COURSE if you have no way to play an instrument then God is not going to bar you from Heaven. You can just sing along with those who CAN play.

Again (I think this makes the third time and you’re still not catching it) it WENT WITHOUT SAYING that they used musical instruments for their psalms and hymns. Everyone who lived during the time the NT was written knew that psalms used music. The church down through the centuries has known that and has used music to praise and worship the Creator of music. Then, around 1824, some guys decided it was contrary to their interpretation of Scripture, I’d just like to know…by what authority?

“Not completely done away with” the OT, eh? In. ter. es.ting.

 

[Salamander]

Interesting… and revealing… comment.

At least I didn’t say “null and void”.

Here is an interesting link to early church fathers discussing music in worship; check it out.
bible.ca/H-music.htm

And check into these. Is this not your church’s text? "(Clement of Alexandria, 185AD, Readings p. 62)
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, pg. 648-652.)
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, pg. 657-688.)
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. III, pg. 246.)

 

[MarcoPolo]

When you say the logic is “quite poor”, are you denying my opinion is not sound or that of the writer’s

Both. You only for posting it. The writer argues that “Revelation is a book filled with symbols,” and therefore the instruments in heaven are not really instruments.

The writer has waved a general “it’s all symbols” hand over the whole book, with no exegesis of parts that can be taken literally and parts that can be taken figuratively… But his it-must-be-a-symbol logic begs the question: is Revelation’s reference to heaven really heaven? Over and over, he assumes yes, and diffuses his own argument by doing so. Logically, mathematically (by no ones opinion) his argument kills itself.

Bad scholarship. Bad logic.

I’m bailing out now of what I consider perhaps the most ridiculous argument against Catholicism ever…I’m sad I’ve stayed this long, but it’s only because of the “staring-at-a-train-wreck” effect.

 

[Salamander]

Both. You only for posting it. The writer argues that “Revelation is a book filled with symbols,” and therefore the instruments in heaven are not really instruments.

The writer has waved a general “it’s all symbols” hand over the whole book, with no exegesis of parts that can be taken literally and parts that can be taken figuratively… But his it-must-be-a-symbol logic begs the question: is Revelation’s reference to heaven really heaven? Over and over, he assumes yes, and diffuses his own argument by doing so. Logically, mathematically (by no ones opinion) his argument kills itself.

Bad scholarship. Bad logic.

I’m bailing out now of what I consider perhaps the most ridiculous argument against Catholicism ever…I’m sad I’ve stayed this long, but it’s only because of the “staring-at-a-train-wreck” effect.

Glad you bailed. Hopefully your train won’t jump the tracks and glad John was speaking to the Seven Churches of Asia…literally.

 

[cascherman]

I find this little chunk interesting, he hates Catholics obviously, yet he agrees with a few of our ‘salvation’ ideas. I’m sure they are not perfectly the same, but obviously he doesn’t prescribe to ‘faith alone’.

My friends, there are many different and confusing teachings (doctrines) out there. Some say, “Faith only saves you.” I invite you to look at James 2:24, “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.” (emph mine, MRH)

The Bible mentions six different things we must “DO” to be saved. Proving any one of them in no way disproves another. I will list them here, and ask you to check them whether they are so.

1. You must first hear in order to be saved: Romans 10:17

1. You must believe Jesus is the Son of God in order to be saved: Romans 10:17 Luke 8:13 John 1:12 John 8:24 John 20:31

1. You must repent in order to be saved: Luke 13:3,5 Acts 3:19

1. You must confess that Jesus is Christ in order to be saved: Luke 12:8 Romans 10:9 I John 4:15 Acts 8:37

1. You must be baptized (not rhontized) in order to be saved: John 3:5 Mark 16:16 Acts 2:38 I Peter 3:21 Galatians 3:27

1. You must remain faithful unto death in order to be saved: Revelation 2:10 I Timothy 4:16 I John 2:24,25

My friend will you not consider the way of God rather than the way of man? If I can assist you in finding someone to help you do this, please write me. It would be an honor.

 

[Metaron]

The Chart says: 552, First Claim of Apostolic Succession.

But Ignatius, Irenaus, Clement, and many others were already taking about Apostolic Succession long before then. This dude gets on m’nerves.

Besides, he can’t even spell right.