Suppressing the EF goes against the Council of Trent

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YoungTradCath said:
I know there would be, but I honestly do believe there would be less. The problem with half of the weird stuff is that usually you can pull some obscure source supporting horrible liturgical decisions; with the EF, you know with very high certainty what is and what is not allowed. At least if it is abused, there is almost never arguing about it. It is or it isn’t.

/end
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On the other hand many might go unnoticed but still be there. For instance I have an EF Ceremonial that prescribes the exact number and pattern of swings of the censer when incensing the altar, and the rubrics depend on the type of altar (free-stanting or not for instance). I can imagine easily cutting corners there and nobody would notice. Or maybe somebody in the pews would notice, probably be the self-appointed censer censor… 😛
 
OraLabora said:
On the other hand many might go unnoticed but still be there. For instance I have an EF Ceremonial that prescribes the exact number and pattern of swings of the censer when incensing the altar, and the rubrics depend on the type of altar (free-stanting or not for instance). I can imagine easily cutting corners there and nobody would notice. Or maybe somebody in the pews would notice, probably be the self-appointed censer censor… 😛
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Yes, somebody finicky might notice it, if they paid attention to every small detail. However, the question should not be whether people may or may not notice the alterations, but whether such modifications should exist to begin with.

Of course people might be tempted to making little modifications here and there, but the advantage of the EF rubrics is that it gives clear guidelines to begin with. People may of course alter it, but if they do so in defiance of what has been clearly prescribed, there is at least an authority that will unequivocally indicate that they are doing it wrongly. Furthermore, when this is pointed out to them, they are unable to plead ignorance, feign innocence or even claim insignificance, as many do now. Should there be any dispute, one need only refer back to the Caeremoniale Romanum to settle the issue, rather than swamping the CDW with letters of clarification.

In my view, clear instruction should always be employed as one of the ways of ensuring that Tradition is respected. We seem to abstain from its use so much these days that people interpret the same rubrics inconsistently and the practice of Tradition subsequently suffers. 🙂
 
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OraLabora:
It really depends on how and where it is celebrated.
The question I’d like to ask: given the spirit of our times (individualism, rebellious attitude towards authority, etc.), do you think if the EF was normative, there wouldn’t be abuses?

If liturgists today are disobedient of the OF rubrics, what makes one think they’d be any more respectful of the EF rubrics? The EF today is carefully preserved by clergy whose mission is to do just that.

I’m pretty sure that pre-Vatican II there was plenty of bad chanting, priests mumbling, incomprehensible Latin and speeding through a low Mass in record time, all of which show a degree of irreverence towards a sacred and Jesus truly present on the altar. If anything discipline these days is even worse.
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😃 Been there, saw that…Cardinal Ratzinger spoke of the same problems.

On the other hand one has to admit that the celebration of the ancient liturgy was too lost in the realm of the individual and the private. One must admit that the communion between the priest and the faithful was lacking. I have great respect for our ancestors who during the Low Mass, said the prayers “during Mass” which their prayer book recommended. Certainly one cannot consider that as the ideal of the liturgical celebration!

Perhaps, these reduced forms of celebration are the fundamental reason why the disappearance of the ancient liturgical books had no importance in many countries and caused no pain, There was never any contact with the liturgy itself. On the other hand, where the liturgical movement had created a certain love for the liturgy, where this movement anticipated the essential ideals of the Council - for example the prayerful participation of all at the liturgical action - there was a greater pain at the liturgical reform undertaken too much in haste and limiting itself often to externals. Where the liturgical movement never existed the reform did not - at first pose a problem. The problems arose in a spasmodic way where a wild creativity made the sacred mystery disappear.

This is why it is so i****mportant to obey the essential criteria of the Constitution on the Liturgy, which I cited above, even if one celebrates according to the Ancient Missal**.** At the moment when this liturgy truly touches the faithful by its beauty and depth, then it will be alive and there will be no irreconcilable opposition with the new liturgy - provided that these criteria are truly applied as the Council wished.
 
Sirach2 said:
😃 Been there, saw that…Cardinal Ratzinger spoke of the same problems.

On the other hand one has to admit that the celebration of the ancient liturgy was too lost in the realm of the individual and the private. One must admit that the communion between the priest and the faithful was lacking. I have great respect for our ancestors who during the Low Mass, said the prayers “during Mass” which their prayer book recommended. Certainly one cannot consider that as the ideal of the liturgical celebration!

Perhaps, these reduced forms of celebration are the fundamental reason why the disappearance of the ancient liturgical books had no importance in many countries and caused no pain, There was never any contact with the liturgy itself. On the other hand, where the liturgical movement had created a certain love for the liturgy, where this movement anticipated the essential ideals of the Council - for example the prayerful participation of all at the liturgical action - there was a greater pain at the liturgical reform undertaken too much in haste and limiting itself often to externals. Where the liturgical movement never existed the reform did not - at first pose a problem. The problems arose in a spasmodic way where a wild creativity made the sacred mystery disappear.

This is why it is so i****mportant to obey the essential criteria of the Constitution on the Liturgy, which I cited above, even if one celebrates according to the Ancient Missal**.** At the moment when this liturgy truly touches the faithful by its beauty and depth, then it will be alive and there will be no irreconcilable opposition with the new liturgy - provided that these criteria are truly applied as the Council wished.
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If I could just ask for a clarification, is that blue text all part of a quote from Cardinal Ratzinger?
 
So… Card. Ratzinger was critical of the Low Mass, and said that it basically was a streamlined version of the ideal? I believe this. Heck, most daily OF masses are analogous to Low TLM’s. half an hour, Quick, mumbled, etc. The normative form for the TLM is the Solemn High Mass-not a missa cantata, not a Low Mass with marian hymns, but a chanted mass with a deacon and subdeacon. This was not common in the 50’s…it’s still not 100% common now in TLM communities, though it is growing. For all the love of the liturgy the FSSP and ICRSP have, I wish some of the apostolates would have daily Solemn High Mass or at least sung masses…the only place in the US that I know of that has this is Clear Creek (of course, the have the priestly and brotherly personnel to pull this off).

This is where I think a reinstating of the Minor orders could help, along with the permanent Diaconate. If the TLM communities more readily accept permanent deacons from their parishes, it would be more feasible to offer Solemn mass weekly, or even more frequently. Building up schools based off of classical learning and having the students participate in the hours and/or the liturgy in scholae would also facilitate personnel for the liturgy during the week. It can be done. I am sure of it.
 
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Esrb99:
So… Card. Ratzinger was critical of the Low Mass, and said that it basically was a streamlined version of the ideal? I believe this. Heck, most daily OF masses are analogous to Low TLM’s. half an hour, Quick, mumbled, etc.
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I have not been to a TLM, since my diocese only offers one TLM and it is 1-15 hrs. away. Not even sure if they have a daily mass. But if that’s how your daily masses are prayed, “quick and mumbled” - then speak for your own experience. That is NOT how OF daily masses are celebrated. The only difference in a daily liturgy is the omission of a second scripture reading and the Gloria and Creed, unless there is a solemnity or octave, where these prayers are not omitted.
 
Sirach2 said:
I have not been to a TLM, since my diocese only offers one TLM and it is 1-15 hrs. away. Not even sure if they have a daily mass. But if that’s how your daily masses are prayed, “quick and mumbled” - then speak for your own experience. That is NOT how OF daily masses are celebrated. The only difference in a daily liturgy is the omission of a second scripture reading and the Gloria and Creed, unless there is a solemnity or octave, where these prayers are not omitted.
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I think you misunderstood me… my mistake. Let me clarify.

My local parish is an OF only parish. I regularly assit at daily mass there…it is often, as I said, “quick and mumbled,” not unlike anecdodes of Low Mass TLM’s from before the Council.

I can only assist at the TLM when I’m 100 miles away… It takes some planning! However, I’ve visited a number of TLM parishes (or both form parishes for the TLM) and been at low, sung, and solemn masses. At Low masses in most places, I ahve not experienced the casual, mumbled-ness of my local daily OF mass.

I have also been to reverent daily OF masses-it’s not like they don’t exist. My point is that maybe the low mass was abused-just as the OF mass is at times abused-more frequently before the council precicely because it was not the ideal form of the mass (solemn high). Perhaps now, a spreading of regular Solemn mass amongst TLM communities can help provide an example of correct ars celebrandi, that OF-only priests can see and take lessons from in their own offerings of Holy Mass. At the same time, more frequent Solemn mass will surely boost TLM communities as well.
 
Esrb99 said:
I think you misunderstood me… my mistake. Let me clarify.

My local parish is an OF only parish. I regularly assit at daily mass there…it is often, as I said, “quick and mumbled,” not unlike anecdodes of Low Mass TLM’s from before the Council.
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This is difficult for me to understand, and may be typical of your parish only. I attend daily mass in many different parishes, since we have a shortage of priests and mass times are staggered to accommodate people conveniently in neighboring parishes. Never have I heard a mass celebrated as you describe, especially since our priests wear cordless mikes and they are always heard - never mumbled. Nor do they speed through a liturgy, but always celebrate in a worthy manner befitting the liturgy. I hope you are not assuming that all parish priests are like your own.
Perhaps now, a spreading of regular Solemn mass amongst TLM communities can help provide an example of correct ars celebrandi, that OF-only priests can see and take lessons from in their own offerings of Holy Mass.
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How smugly stated, but being a trad, it is rather typical.
 
I’ve been to daily Mass in many, many settings (though I don’t go every day, due to work obligations and non-availabilty of a Mass that corresponds with my schedule).

I’ve never been to a “mumbled” Mass. I can say that all have been, at the simple end of the scale, simple and quiet but respectful recited celebrations taking 25-30 minutes without really “rushing”, remembering that there’s one less reading, no Gloria, no Creed, (assuming it’s not a feast or solemnity) and no or only a very short homily. That’s not “rushing”, that’s simply the structure of a weekday Mass on ordinary days or memorials.

This applies to parishes, and to, for example, St. Joseph’s Oratory 7 am Mass in Montreal.

At the other extreme, Benedictine monasteries that celebrate daily Mass in full Gregorian chant. At the abbey I’m associated with, daily Mass is about 50 minutes because it’s entirel chanted (It’s approx; 1h15 on Sundays).

I rather like the simple, recited daily Masses in the OF, actually.
 
Sirach2 said:
I have not been to a TLM, since my diocese only offers one TLM and it is 1-15 hrs. away.
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This is amazing. For all the unfortunate and generalized remarks you make about the TLM and “trads”, you have never even been to one? Incredible! I invite you to take the time and just once visit the Mass that produced so many of our saints.
 
Ghislieri said:
This is amazing. For all the unfortunate and generalized remarks you make about the TLM and “trads”, you have never even been to one? Incredible! I invite you to take the time and just once visit the Mass that produced so many of our saints.
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Never been to one? I was raised with it for 24 years. It was exactly my point when I said, “Been there, saw that.” It is precisely what Cardinal Ratzinger was speaking about.

As for reporting me for using (in your humble opinion) a rude word, maybe a more sophisticated one could have been substituted, such as “condescension, patronizing” or other synonym, but maybe folks would not have known what those big words mean. 😃 You are always on my backside, huh, St. Pius? :rotfl::rotfl:
 
Sirach2 said:
As for reporting me for using (in your humble opinion) a rude word, maybe a more sophisticated one could have been substituted, such as “condescension, patronizing” or other synonym, but maybe folks would not have known what those big words mean.

**So you’re assuming that most people on this board are ignorant and don’t understand such difficult descriptions as “condescension, patronizing”? Wow… **

😃 You are always on my backside, huh, St. Pius? :rotfl::rotfl:

Uh, no thanks, I’ll pass…
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The thread remains closed, because of the arguments and talking about each other rather than to each other about the OP.
 
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