Supreme Court of Virginia rules in favor of the Episcopal Church

[anode]

…a very important decision

episcopalchurch.org/79425_122818_ENG_HTM.htm

…against nine breakaway congregations who wanted to take their buildings and property with them. This decision involved a lot of valuable property in a state that is one of the original thirteen, settled for a long time from England -the name refers to Elizabeth I–and had some property laws different from the other states. This decision, together with that of Colorado Springs, provide important precedents for rulings not yet handed down.

I, for one, am very gratified by this decision. If this Anglican breakaway group could take millions of dollars of property with them, then the breakaway groups of any denomination, including the Catholic, could do the same.

 

[GKC]

…a very important decision

episcopalchurch.org/79425_122818_ENG_HTM.htm

…against nine breakaway congregations who wanted to take their buildings and property with them. This decision involved a lot of valuable property in a state that is one of the original thirteen, settled for a long time from England -the name refers to Elizabeth I–and had some property laws different from the other states. This decision, together with that of Colorado Springs, provide important precedents for rulings not yet handed down.

I, for one, am very gratified by this decision. If this Anglican breakaway group could take millions of dollars of property with them, then the breakaway groups of any denomination, including the Catholic, could do the same.

Link to an analysis, not likely to your liking:

accurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2010/06/virginia-supreme-court-sends-case-back.html

GKC

 

[Della]

Any property owned by a diocese belongs to the diocese, even if local congregations are expected to maintain the property. It’s the same thing as someone leasing–they have the responsibility to do ordinary maintenance, but they are not the owners. It’s just that simple.

The congregation could petition the diocese to buy the property. After all, scraping together another Episcopalian congregation out of the same area would be quite the task given the limited number of people interested in being Episcopalian. They aren’t known for proselytizing other Christians or making converts of non-Christians. The diocese would be smart to sell rather than let the buildings sit empty or be turned into goodness knows what by new owners who wouldn’t care about their historical significance. Just my :twocents:.

 

[Publisher]

My boss is an Episcopalian. His church just went through something similar…the conservatives in the parish wanted to form an “Anglican” church and take the property…court ruled in favor of the larger Episcopal congregation…the courts don’t rule on “theology”…title, deeds and the parent organization, in this case The Episcopal Church.

The “Anglican” parish is renting a hall and trying to get enough money to buy a building.

 

[Nine_Two]

Given that in the case of Virginia, it tended to be the diocese which funded the building of new parishes, at least originally (not sure if things changed as time went on), this makes absolute sense. I’m pretty sure the Catholic Church tends to do things the same way.

If the congregation itself buys the property, does all the fund raising, and builds and furnishes the building (as is the case with most Orthodox churches of which I am aware, and probably most protestant denominations) then the property should stay under the control of the parishioners no matter what they decide to do.

 

[Contarini]

Any property owned by a diocese belongs to the diocese, even if local congregations are expected to maintain the property. It’s the same thing as someone leasing–they have the responsibility to do ordinary maintenance, but they are not the owners. It’s just that simple.

The congregation could petition the diocese to buy the property. After all, scraping together another Episcopalian congregation out of the same area would be quite the task given the limited number of people interested in being Episcopalian. They aren’t known for proselytizing other Christians or making converts of non-Christians. The diocese would be smart to sell rather than let the buildings sit empty or be turned into goodness knows what by new owners who wouldn’t care about their historical significance. Just my :twocents:.

That has happened sometimes–that the Episcopal Church has sold off the building for some other use (I believe that in one case it became a mosque) rather than let the congregation buy it. But there may be more people interested in being Episcopalians than you think. In a couple of cases known to me, the Episcopal Church has started up missions in the empty buildings,and as far as I know these are doing fairly well.

The Episcopal Church fills a fairly small niche, but within that niche it does quite well. I don’t think it’s going away any time soon. (My problem is that I don’t think filling that niche has much to do with being an organ of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.)

Edwin

 

[GKC]

Any property owned by a diocese belongs to the diocese, even if local congregations are expected to maintain the property. It’s the same thing as someone leasing–they have the responsibility to do ordinary maintenance, but they are not the owners. It’s just that simple.

The congregation could petition the diocese to buy the property. After all, scraping together another Episcopalian congregation out of the same area would be quite the task given the limited number of people interested in being Episcopalian. They aren’t known for proselytizing other Christians or making converts of non-Christians. The diocese would be smart to sell rather than let the buildings sit empty or be turned into goodness knows what by new owners who wouldn’t care about their historical significance. Just my :twocents:.

The question is, does the diocese own it. Or, does the TEC own it. Or does the parish(es) own it. The position of the TEC is that all Episcopal parishes are held in trust, pursuant to the so-called Dennis Canon, a self-actuating land grab of dubious legal standing, for the national church. Thus, when the 4 dioceses in TEC left and formed the ACNA, TEC still claimed their property. Which is one of the points that, eventually, the Supreme Court of the US will have to rule on. So far, as in SC, local conditions have sometimes favored the break-away parishes. But even in very common cases, when the parish has fully funded the property, and as predated both the existence of the local diocese and that of the national church, TEC sues for the property. The end of the story is not yet.

That site that I posted a link to is an excellent account of the complicated legal struggles, in depth. I don’t expect anyone to dig into it, in depth.

GKC

 

[anode]

…But I think that the Virginia Supreme Court *did *dig into all of the ‘legal issues’–in depth. And the other state supreme courts that ruled on these issues. Some will support the dissidents and some won’t --but each court will rule according to the laws in its state.

I doubt that the Supreme Court will take this up if it is referred to them. It’s a states’ issue.

And yes, I do think that the death of the Episcopal Church has been highly exaggerated, a la a Mark Twain. There is a sea change taking place in this country regarding the attitude towards gays, as the shift in the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” regulation in the military indicates. The attitude towards gays shifts markedly towards them from decade to decade, with the younger generation being much less concerned than the older. The Episcopal Church needs younger members and may attract them. I have yet to see a stampede to Rome via the ordinariates.

Those who are concerned with the laying on of hands on all that hairspray probably have their scalps covered with Rogaine!

 

[GKC]

I think not. Have you?

We shall see, as to what is to come. .

GKC

…But I think that the Virginia Supreme Court *did *dig into all of the ‘legal issues’–in depth. And the other state supreme courts that ruled on these issues. Some will support the dissidents and some won’t --but each court will rule according to the laws in its state.

I doubt that the Supreme Court will take this up if it is referred to them. It’s a states’ issue.

And yes, I do think that the death of the Episcopal Church has been highly exaggerated, a la a Mark Twain. There is a sea change taking place in this country regarding the attitude towards gays, as the shift in the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” regulation in the military indicates. The attitude towards gays shifts markedly towards them from decade to decade, with the younger generation being much less concerned than the older. The Episcopal Church needs younger members and may attract them. I have yet to see a stampede to Rome via the ordinariates.

Those who are concerned with the laying on of hands on all that hairspray probably have their scalps covered with Rogaine!

 

[Contarini]

…But I think that the Virginia Supreme Court *did *dig into all of the ‘legal issues’–in depth. And the other state supreme courts that ruled on these issues. Some will support the dissidents and some won’t --but each court will rule according to the laws in its state.

I doubt that the Supreme Court will take this up if it is referred to them. It’s a states’ issue.

And yes, I do think that the death of the Episcopal Church has been highly exaggerated, a la a Mark Twain. There is a sea change taking place in this country regarding the attitude towards gays, as the shift in the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” regulation in the military indicates. The attitude towards gays shifts markedly towards them from decade to decade, with the younger generation being much less concerned than the older. The Episcopal Church needs younger members and may attract them. I have yet to see a stampede to Rome via the ordinariates.

The Episcopal Church is attracting some younger members. But it will stay small, and probably get a bit smaller than it already is. I think the Episcopal Church is ceasing to be the church of the country clubs and becoming the church of the independent coffee shops.

Those who are concerned with the laying on of hands on all that hairspray probably have their scalps covered with Rogaine!

I don’t know what Rogaine is, but I gather that it’s something venerable older persons put on their heads to make their hair grow better.

I have no desire to become bear food, so I desire to dissociate myself from this particular rhetorical flourish of yours.

And there certainly are younger persons who disbelieve in women’s ordination. How many of them are Anglicans I’m not sure, but a few are. Perhaps more become Catholics or Orthodox or conservative Calvinists.

Edwin

 

[Della]

The question is, does the diocese own it. Or, does the TEC own it. Or does the parish(es) own it. The position of the TEC is that all Episcopal parishes are held in trust, pursuant to the so-called Dennis Canon, a self-actuating land grab of dubious legal standing, for the national church. Thus, when the 4 dioceses in TEC left and formed the ACNA, TEC still claimed their property. Which is one of the points that, eventually, the Supreme Court of the US will have to rule on. So far, as in SC, local conditions have sometimes favored the break-away parishes. But even in very common cases, when the parish has fully funded the property, and as predated both the existence of the local diocese and that of the national church, TEC sues for the property. The end of the story is not yet.

That site that I posted a link to is an excellent account of the complicated legal struggles, in depth. I don’t expect anyone to dig into it, in depth.

GKC

It’s a mess all right. Not to sound like crowing, because I’m not, but in the Catholic Church it’s the diocese who owns all church property, so this kind of situation can’t happen. Conversely, Catholic dioceses get sued for the mistakes made by their parish personnel since the diocese is the ultimate “owner”. I wish the TECs well in all this and hope they will decide to take advantage of the ordinate so we can all be one and worship together again.

 

[josephdaniel29]

…But I think that the Virginia Supreme Court *did *dig into all of the ‘legal issues’–in depth. And the other state supreme courts that ruled on these issues. Some will support the dissidents and some won’t --but each court will rule according to the laws in its state.

I doubt that the Supreme Court will take this up if it is referred to them. It’s a states’ issue.

And yes, I do think that the death of the Episcopal Church has been highly exaggerated, a la a Mark Twain. There is a sea change taking place in this country regarding the attitude towards gays, as the shift in the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” regulation in the military indicates. The attitude towards gays shifts markedly towards them from decade to decade, with the younger generation being much less concerned than the older. The Episcopal Church needs younger members and may attract them. I have yet to see a stampede to Rome via the ordinariates.

Those who are concerned with the laying on of hands on all that hairspray probably have their scalps covered with Rogaine!

There may be a “sea change” taking place and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. As a society we have to be respectful and tolerant of people who don’t share our values. The difference is the mission of the Church is about Divine Truth and transmitting the Apostolic Faith. The Church exist to bring people into communion with God. It is not a social club.

The Episcopal Church is the prime example of what happens when you abandon Apostolic Tradition. You get lesbian “bishops”, venerating pagans as “saints”, clown masses, pagan rituals and institutional support for murdering unborn children. All of these things are leading people farther and farther away from communion with God, exactly the opposite of what the Church is supposed to do.

As to your swipe at older members of the Church:

Deuteronomy 32:7

Remember the days of old;
consider the generations long past.
Ask your father and he will tell you,
your elders, and they will explain to you.

Don’t be so quick to dismiss what they have to say. It is only our own arrogance that makes us think we know better than those who came before us.

In Christ,
Joe

 

[anode]

There may be a “sea change” taking place and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. As a society we have to be respectful and tolerant of people who don’t share our values. The difference is the mission of the Church is about Divine Truth and transmitting the Apostolic Faith. The Church exist to bring people into communion with God. It is not a social club.

The Episcopal Church is the prime example of what happens when you abandon Apostolic Tradition. You get lesbian “bishops”, venerating pagans as “saints”, clown masses, pagan rituals and institutional support for murdering unborn children. All of these things are leading people farther and farther away from communion with God, exactly the opposite of what the Church is supposed to do.

As to your swipe at older members of the Church:

Deuteronomy 32:7

Remember the days of old;
consider the generations long past.
Ask your father and he will tell you,
your elders, and they will explain to you.

Don’t be so quick to dismiss what they have to say. It is only our own arrogance that makes us think we know better than those who came before us.

In Christ,
Joe

I did not intend a swipe at older members. Those opponents (on this forum) of the Episcopal Church have tended to be men over 50, and they have swiped at women bishops as having consecrations of “hairspray”. I countered with the Rogaine which is probably on many of their scalps.

Your comments about the Episcopal Church imply that its loyal members are fallen-away Catholics. They aren’t. The Episcopal Church is not the Catholic Church. It does not take the cult of saints the same way as the Catholics do. They venerate certain people as heroes, who were not necessarily saintly. Episcopalians don’t usually pray to saints. They do not support the particularly Catholic interpretation of Mary. I personally think that the cult of saints is fraught with difficulties and am glad that Episcopalians don’t buy into it. Regarding clown masses, many RCs have bitterly complained about these in their own dioceses.

I don’t know what “pagan” rituals you are referring to, but Reiki and using a labyrinth as an aid to meditation appears pretty innocuous to me, as do observances related to the changing of the seasons. The common practice of Christmas and Easter are clear references to ancient ceremonies of the winter solstice and the rebirth of spring.
As to institutional support of murdering the unborn, by which you may be referring to the widespread support of Planner Parenthood, the Episcopal Church supports contraception and sex education as the most effective ways of preventing unwanted pregnancy and abortion. Criminalizing abortion doesn’t work. It is unenforceable and encourages back alley abortions. Nations who have criminalized contraception and abortion have unconscionably high numbers of orphans and deaths secondary to illegal abortions.

Equating the Episcopal support of choice, lack of a comparable interest in saints, and tolerance of experimentation in worship has nothing to do with women bishops or gays in the priesthood. The Episcopal Church has never supported the Catholic position on these issues and never shall.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Your comments about the Episcopal Church imply that its loyal members are fallen-away Catholics. They aren’t. The Episcopal Church is not the Catholic Church.

Well I certainly did not mean to imply that. Most Christian groups have fallen away from the Apostolic Faith to some extent or another. The Episcopalians have fallen further away than many.

Regarding clown masses, many RCs have bitterly complained about these in their own dioceses.

As I said, many Christian groups have fallen away in part from the Apostolic Faith. These things are simply the fruit of that.

I don’t know what “pagan” rituals you are referring to, but Reiki and using a labyrinth as an aid to meditation appears pretty innocuous to me, as do observances related to the changing of the seasons. The common practice of Christmas and Easter are clear references to ancient ceremonies of the winter solstice and the rebirth of spring.

Innocuous to you perhaps. How about “Earth Masses” and praying to “Mother God”? What you see as innocuous is further proof of how far the ECA has strayed from traditional Christianity.

As to institutional support of murdering the unborn, by which you may be referring to the widespread support of Planner Parenthood, the Episcopal Church supports contraception and sex education as the most effective ways of preventing unwanted pregnancy and abortion. Criminalizing abortion doesn’t work. It is unenforceable and encourages back alley abortions. Nations who have criminalized contraception and abortion have unconscionably high numbers of orphans and deaths secondary to illegal abortions.

So the support for abortion is based on the idea that people are going to kill the babies anyway so why not make it safer so as to reduce the risk to the murderer? Really?

Equating the Episcopal support of choice, lack of a comparable interest in saints, and tolerance of experimentation in worship has nothing to do with women bishops or gays in the priesthood. The Episcopal Church has never supported the Catholic position on these issues and never shall.

That’s baloney. All these things are inextricably linked. Of course I don’t expect you to see that.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[anode]

You are off topic. The topic of this thread is the recent ruling by the Virginia Supreme Court supporting the Episcopal Church in its suit to retain its properties–land and buildings–against the attempts of dissident groups who left the diocese to take the property with them. I personally support the decision of the court. This is not a debate about the Episcopal Church and its doctrines. If you want to debate this, start another thread.

 

[josephdaniel29]

You are off topic. The topic of this thread is the recent ruling by the Virginia Supreme Court supporting the Episcopal Church in its suit to retain its properties–land and buildings–against the attempts of dissident groups who left the diocese to take the property with them. I personally support the decision of the court. This is not a debate about the Episcopal Church and its doctrines. If you want to debate this, start another thread.

Who was it that posted this?

And yes, I do think that the death of the Episcopal Church has been highly exaggerated, a la a Mark Twain. There is a sea change taking place in this country regarding the attitude towards gays, as the shift in the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” regulation in the military indicates. The attitude towards gays shifts markedly towards them from decade to decade, with the younger generation being much less concerned than the older. The Episcopal Church needs younger members and may attract them. I have yet to see a stampede to Rome via the ordinariates.

Those who are concerned with the laying on of hands on all that hairspray probably have their scalps covered with Rogaine!

But as you wish. Back on topic!

 

[gamewell45]

Well, the courts have ruled so lets see what happens next, if anything.

If I were the Anglican’s, I’d focus on starting from scratch and raise funds to either buy or build their own church building.

 

[Hesychios]

I have yet to see a stampede to Rome via the ordinariates.

Subject for another thread, but it is beginning to look like a very small event.

The TAC is probably somewhat smaller than it’s claims and it has lost some congregations and one bishop since the Ordinariates were announced.

The numbers coming from mainline Anglicanism seem to be impossible to assess.

Recently a former Episcopal bishop who had converted to Latin Catholicism three years ago reverted to TEC. One of the reasons given was that he really liked the ministry, and that role was denied him as a Catholic. It was interesting (if also a bit saddening) to see the Cuban-American Catholic priest Father Cutie move to the Episcopal church. It seems that he has been keeping the pews full there, one has to wonder how many Catholics followed him, and why.

I do not think there will be any trouble naming Ordinaries for the new Ordinariates. There have been conversions some some of very fine Anglican/Episcopalian priests over the years (father George Rutler being one, if he’s not too old for it), so probably the Vatican can make that happen, but the movement will always be small. I suspect the few congregations that do get set up will see a lot of Latin Catholics popping in, so they should become economically viable.

 

[GKC]

With respect to the TAC, and the Ordinariates, I have been making cautionary comments since day one. It is a top-down driven program, and the unity at the top has never been complete. And not all TAC laity will come, even if the bishops did. More than one bishop is making contrary noises, I have heard. And yes, many traditionalist Anglicans have wondered greatly at the membership figures circulated by TAC. No facts of specific numbers to the contrary known to me, but the 400,000 number just looked odd.

As I have said before, wait and see.

GKC

Subject for another thread, but it is beginning to look like a very small event.

The TAC is probably somewhat smaller than it’s claims and it has lost some congregations and one bishop since the Ordinariates were announced.

The numbers coming from mainline Anglicanism seem to be impossible to assess.

Recently a former Episcopal bishop who had converted to Latin Catholicism three years ago reverted to TEC. One of the reasons given was that he really liked the ministry, and that role was denied him as a Catholic. It was interesting (if also a bit saddening) to see the Cuban-American Catholic priest Father Cutie move to the Episcopal church. It seems that he has been keeping the pews full there, one has to wonder how many Catholics followed him, and why.

I do not think there will be any trouble naming Ordinaries for the new Ordinariates. There have been conversions some some of very fine Anglican/Episcopalian priests over the years (father George Rutler being one, if he’s not too old for it), so probably the Vatican can make that happen, but the movement will always be small. I suspect the few congregations that do get set up will see a lot of Latin Catholics popping in, so they should become economically viable.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

There’s a difficulty in cases like this one, and we’ve seen it up here in Canada, too.

In these parts, Anglicans have seen each other in court over control of property in a diocese. And in this case, part of that property is worth millions, being located in one of the very high end areas of Vancouver.

The difficulty arises for all parties concerned, including the courts. Diocese and parishes approach the courts offering considerations pertinent to matters of ecclesiastical practice, along with other considerations. But the court is only concerned with contractual concerns between and among corporate entities. Here, it was clear that the court saw 2 corporations in its decision, and applied contract law and precedent. Things like canons only provided context, not the basis for judgement. Needless to say, the appeal is under way.

Out of curiosity, I wondered if the same thing theoretically might happen in the Catholic Archdiocese. Not a chance! The Archdiocese owns everything. The parishes are separate corporate entities owned by the Archdiocese, and will, no doubt, not likely have their trustees argue with the Archdiocese. Each parish has the same structure for its 3trustees: The Archbishop, the Vicar General, and the Parish Priest (who, of course, the Archbishop can replace).

Commentators have recently suggested that there is, in progress, a clash between 2 views of the “Anglican way.” One is that it is rather heirarchical, the other that it is parish based (in broad, general terms). That difference in viewpoint is, it seems, helping things end up before courts. Interestingly, in the US, and many other national Anglican churches, there is no sovereign to influence things, as in England, where perhaps even today a “we are not amused” could carry a certain amount of weight among the participants.

Blessings,

Gerry